642 réponses à ce sujet

[Eterna]

Yes really. It's time to deal with it. Bioware wrote the Reapers in such a way that beating them conventionally is not possible as we've seen with the refuse ending.

[AlanC9]

JasonShepard wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
FTL sensors don't exist in the ME universe. But putting buoys within range of a relay and having them communicate by FTL would be doable.

I know - that's why I had to specify that the initial blast-wave (when the explosion is just starting) is less than Light-speed. Since you can see the explosion in the Arrival cinematic, that's what I'm working from.

Just anticipating someone saying that the Reapers forgot to set up the buoys, or didn't care when Citadel forces took them out.

[Deathsaurer]

Can someone explain to me how weapons of mass destruction and blowing up star systems count as conventional?

[Obadiah]

Maybe we should have tried destroying the Reapers emotionally.

[capn233]

nukembaby wrote...

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing here; I wasn't referring to any atmospheric interaction. I meant the pulse of electromagnetic radiation emanating from the release of energy from fission or fusion.

Then you are not using "electomagnetic pulse" or "EMP" in the conventionally used meaning.  By your definition, turning a light bulb on and off releases an EMP.

The nuclear EMP effect that disrupts electronics or electrical systems is a result of high energy particles released from a nuclear explosion interacting with magnetic field lines.  There actually needs to also be some atoms floating around to strip electrons off of as well (like an atmosphere).

You do not get any EMP effect without a magnetic field or in deep space.  This is why it is feasable to use something like the Orion drive (basically a series of nuclear detonations) to propel a spacecraft.

The issue with using nuclear weapons in space is that all of the energy is dispersed as radiation.  It is like a giant flashbulb essentially.  Any thermal effects in a vacuum would be due to heating the hull via radiation, not unlike parking a Reaper in a system with an energetic star.  The composition of the hull will determine how much radiation it actually absorbs, reflects, or passes through it.

Of course the Reapers could be hardened to withstand the radiation, but at point blank range? That would require an immensity of shielding which I don't see in their design.

Point us to those Reaper schematics you are reviewing.

[MKfighter89]

Wait I got it Blow up a relay where the biggest mass of reapers are, then gurillea warfare comes into play for the rest. Of course easier said then done. 

Modifié par JillBSuiT, 17 avril 2013 - 04:01 .

[Nightdragon8]

yea but who wants to sacrifice there homeworld first...

[zeypher]

When half the reaper fleet parked itself on earth, earth was toast.

[DirtyPhoenix]

nukembaby wrote...

2) Political. This is pretty obvious. Glorification of nukes is not something they want to instill in impressionable minds playing the game.

Riiight.. like there haven't been nukes or "glorification" of nukes in other games eh? <_<  I've lost count how many times I had nuked my enemy to oblivion in Rise of Nations. And I was a kid back then. "Impressionable minds" aren't supposed to play this game anyway.

Modifié par pirate1802, 17 avril 2013 - 08:59 .

[Cobretti ftw]

Its not possible just because the writters decided to make almost every1 on the galaxy semi retard.


ITs almost ridiculous. ANd its even worse to see people defending the idea of not being able to defeat them conventionaly.. Well, of course we cant.. with the ssemi retard galaxy it is indeed impossible.

[AlexMBrennan]

If it's that easy to make Reapers run (by firing a nuke at them), then the war is already won

Could you get any more deluded? Making the Reapers run leaves their fleet intact, aware of your tactics and still looking to kill you - I.e. the same situation as the end of ME1. You haven't achieved anything yet.

To destroy the Reapes and win the war we would need something to force an engagement - the Reapers can move to Sol and start shelling Earth to force is to fight back, but the Reapers don't have home worlds or fuel depots or shipyards. We cannot destroy the Reaper by conventional means.

Once again, consider the possibility that the Reapers fight not blindly line up to get shot - what if they used guerrilla tactics? Randomly pick a homeworld, approach at FTL speed, take out the garrison with overwhelming superior force (unless you want to argue that your magical nukes allow us to spread our fleets to protect dozens of homeworlds and strategic locations like fuel depots and shipyards and win against the entire reaper armada) and shell the planet until reinforcements arrive?

Here are my facts from Wikipedia:

Haha, that's a good one!

Energy from a nuclear explosive is initially released in several forms of penetrating radiation. When there is a surrounding material such as air, rock, or water, [or Reaper hull] this radiation interacts with and rapidly heats it to an equilibrium temperature (i.e. so that the matter is at the same temperature as the atomic bomb's matter). This causes vaporization of surrounding material [Reaper hull] resulting in its rapid expansion.

That "argument" fails because Reaper hull, unlike air, rock or water does not surround the nuclear bomb. If you place the nuke on a flat surface in a vacuum (e.g. On a Reapers hull) then, assuming uniform distribution, half of the energy will be lost because it "misses" the Reaper entirely. If you detonate nukes further away from the Reapers then it will get much less effective (surface area of a sphere is proportional to radius squared I.e. detonate the nuke twice as far away from the Reaper and you'll do a quarter of damage)

[BioWareAre****s]

Do nukes even work effectively in space?

[robertthebard]

FluffyCannibal wrote...

Do nukes even work effectively in space?

Based on what's being presented here, I'd say probably not.  Not being a physicist, I can't really say one way or the other.  I'd go to the Wiki to look but somebody apparently added Reaper hulls to the definition, so I'm not sure how reliable it would be...

[Funkdrspot]

Lord another refuser pops up to make up a plothole so they can then bash the endings to make theirs seem more appealing...

[nukembaby]

capn233 wrote...

Of course the Reapers could be hardened to withstand the radiation, but at point blank range? That would require an immensity of shielding which I don't see in their design.

Point us to those Reaper schematics you are reviewing.

There is no known material in our physical universe that can remain intact at millions of degrees, and Bioware did not explicitly mention otherwise for the ME universe. Ergo Reaper hulls are not made of some magical alloy that could allow them to fly into a sun and survive. If they had that technology, then surely they could engineer their hulls to be impervious to high velocity slugs as well.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Your conventional victory plan only works if there is a siginificanly smaller number of reapers on the battlefield than enemy dreadnoughts or massive ammounts of heavy crusiers. Additionally, it requires that the reapers not take preventative measures on even a basic level, such as evasive manuvers, returning fire, using their oculets as fighters, etc, in order to win in most scenarios people bring up.

It is the reapers technology, combined with their ability to resupply their smaller forces with ease, along with their numbers, firepower, and overwhealming tactics and very quick to adapt strategies, that make them such an almost impossible enemy to fight conventionally.

The miracle of palavan, before anyone brings it up, doesn't prove anything, becasue immediatly after the fleet FTL'd and did it's stunt, the reapers learned this tactic and applied it to themselves, FTLing behind the fleet and attacking both palavan and the turian fleet from the rear. And the asari barley made a dent into the reapers numbers with their gurellia tactics before the reapers left such a tactic irrelevant and simply attacked the main homeworld to draw out the asari gurellia fighters or cut off most of their support and supplies at the source.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 17 avril 2013 - 05:13 .

[AlanC9]

FluffyCannibal wrote...

Do nukes even work effectively in space?

Not particularly. But whenever someone points that out to the OP he ducks the point.

[nukembaby]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Could you get any more deluded? Making the Reapers run leaves their fleet intact, aware of your tactics and still looking to kill you - I.e. the same situation as the end of ME1. You haven't achieved anything yet.

Pure naivete. You don't have to destroy your enemy to win a war. 
 

AlexMBrennan wrote...
Haha, that's a good one!

When you're not able to repudiate an argument, cast doubt on the facts. Oldest lamest trick in the book.

AlexMBrennan wrote...
That "argument" fails because Reaper hull, unlike air, rock or water does not surround the nuclear bomb. If you place the nuke on a flat surface in a vacuum (e.g. On a Reapers hull) then, assuming uniform distribution, half of the energy will be lost because it "misses" the Reaper entirely. If you detonate nukes further away from the Reapers then it will get much less effective (surface area of a sphere is proportional to radius squared I.e. detonate the nuke twice as far away from the Reaper and you'll do a quarter of damage)

Of course I'm assuming detonation on the Reaper hull. Why would I detonate anywhere else? Focus please. And 50% of 50 megatons is still 25 megatons. In fact 50% might as well be 100%; most other weapons have vastly lower efficiencies including railguns on a dreadnought.

Modifié par nukembaby, 17 avril 2013 - 05:18 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

nukembaby wrote...

capn233 wrote...

Of course the Reapers could be hardened to withstand the radiation, but at point blank range? That would require an immensity of shielding which I don't see in their design.

Point us to those Reaper schematics you are reviewing.

There is no known material in our physical universe that can remain intact at millions of degrees, and Bioware did not explicitly mention otherwise for the ME universe. Ergo Reaper hulls are not made of some magical alloy that could allow them to fly into a sun and survive. If they had that technology, then surely they could engineer their hulls to be impervious to high velocity slugs as well.

If spacecrafts and vehicles aren't damaged from the background radiation of a nuclear device, why would a reaper? The main heat point of a nuclear missile or bomb is at it's point of detenation, and is only a few hundred feet in total radius. The rest is the kinetic force created by the rapid evaporation of water in the atmosphere and the massive gap of matter left from the bombs epicenter, that is what makes the iconic blast a nuclear bomb causes that causes so much of it's destruction. The rest of the radiation is only harmful to organic life, and the radiation isn't nearly enough to actually much damage to anything else.

So unless you hit all the reapers with a single nuclear bomb with pinpoint accuracy, you aren't going to do much damage to them, even with the background radiation such a bomb will release.  If fact, you'll probably kill off more of your own men from this tactic than you would reapers, unless you were using only krogan and vorcha soliders, they'd probably be fine against the leathal radiation levels.

[Cainhurst Crow]

nukembaby wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Could you get any more deluded? Making the Reapers run leaves their fleet intact, aware of your tactics and still looking to kill you - I.e. the same situation as the end of ME1. You haven't achieved anything yet.

Pure naivete. You don't have to destroy your enemy to win a war. 

Against the reapers? yeah, you really do need to kill them all in order to win a war. When you are fighting an enemy who is a living dreadnought class warship that can mind control people, you do really need to either destroy it or disable it's ability to use both it's guns and it's indoctrination power.

That or manage to change their entire operating system to not want to harvest organic life and destroy all disenters.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 17 avril 2013 - 05:24 .

[nukembaby]

AlanC9 wrote...

FluffyCannibal wrote...

Do nukes even work effectively in space?

Not particularly. But whenever someone points that out to the OP he ducks the point.

Of course they do. I'm actually quite staggered by the fact that there is any doubt. I have to assume that it's just argument for the sake of argument and not a mindboggling lack of understanding of what a thermonuclear detonation actually is.

Actually it's probably video games' fault for making everyone think nukes are just really big bombs. 

[nukembaby]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Against the reapers? yeah, you really do need to kill them all in order to win a war. When you are fighting an enemy who is a living dreadnought class warship that can mind control people, you do really need to either destroy it or disable it's ability to use both it's guns and it's indoctrination power.

History has already proven otherwise--the most recent example of which is the ability of S. Korea to live alongside N. Korea all this time without a need to destroy N. Korea. Granted N. Korea is not comprised of living dreadnoughts (though it would be awesome if they were), they do exhibit the capability to mind control people.

[Cainhurst Crow]

nukembaby wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

FluffyCannibal wrote...

Do nukes even work effectively in space?

Not particularly. But whenever someone points that out to the OP he ducks the point.

Of course they do. I'm actually quite staggered by the fact that there is any doubt. I have to assume that it's just argument for the sake of argument and not a mindboggling lack of understanding of what a thermonuclear detonation actually is.

Actually it's probably video games' fault for making everyone think nukes are just really big bombs. 

You take away the concussive force from a nuclear bomb, and you pretty much remove almost all of it's ability to be effective. What you are left with is a heat weapon, effective only if you are caught in it's very small point of fission, and the rest of it being little more than your normal dose of solar wind energy.  It would not make an effective weapon due to it's need to be so close to it's target in space to do any real damage and how easily it's trajectory could be mapped and fired upon to destroy it preemptivly by enemy forces.

[Cainhurst Crow]

nukembaby wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Against the reapers? yeah, you really do need to kill them all in order to win a war. When you are fighting an enemy who is a living dreadnought class warship that can mind control people, you do really need to either destroy it or disable it's ability to use both it's guns and it's indoctrination power.

History has already proven otherwise--the most recent example of which is the ability of S. Korea to live alongside N. Korea all this time without a need to destroy N. Korea. Granted N. Korea is not comprised of living dreadnoughts (though it would be awesome if they were), they do exhibit the capability to mind control people.

Last time I check, north korea does not possess the ability to control everyone they come in contact with simply by standing near them or leaving one of their devices near them for a few days, or even a few hours. Nor can north korea stay dormant for thousands of years without anyone noticing any activity from them and than come back as strong as they were the day they decided to wait.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 17 avril 2013 - 05:35 .

[nukembaby]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So unless you hit all the reapers with a single nuclear bomb with pinpoint accuracy, you aren't going to do much damage to them, even with the background radiation such a bomb will release.  If fact, you'll probably kill off more of your own men from this tactic than you would reapers, unless you were using only krogan and vorcha soliders, they'd probably be fine against the leathal radiation levels.

Again, nuke detonation directly on Reaper hull is what I was assuming. Why would I be detonating anywhere else? Like halfway between my ship and the Reaper? I mean c'mon. Common sense here please.