642 réponses à ce sujet

[N7Gold]

nukembaby wrote...

During the game I saw several Reapers being destroyed conventionally--and without nukes (Cain at the end doesn't really count since it's so small). Throw a couple megaton bombs in there and they should be toast in no time. Even without nukes, the Reaper ships are kind of a joke. Sure, their main gun is destructive but so slow to fire and so easy to predict, a NASA space shuttle could run circles around one.

I don't buy it.

There's far too many of them to defeat conventionally.

[AlanC9]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Using the information gained from Horizon to completely jam husk communication and controls would also be cool. Cause then, you know, you don't need to worry about ground troops.

So the Reapers can't harvest and have to obliterate worlds from orbit. This makes their win lower quality, but won't make them lose. If anything, it makes their strategic problems simpler.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 avril 2013 - 01:38 .

[AlanC9]

As for this one.....

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Pretty much. There's also using short FTL jumps to come in and get a shot behind the Reapers.

..  it works both ways. The net effect would only be to make battles look kind of silly with everyone ping-ponging around

[Ticonderoga117]

AlanC9 wrote...
So the Reapers can't harvest and have to obliterate worlds from orbit. This makes their win lower quality, but won't make them lose. If anything, it makes their strategic problems simpler.

According to the Catalyst they can't do this to every world. They have to save something, apparently. If they are forced into a situation that means they can't do what they need to do, then we win.

As to the next issue with "ping ponging", yeah, so? It's vastly more beneficial to do than yell "CHARGE!" and hope for the best. Hell, if that's the best Alliance admirals need to be able to do, then sign me up. I can yell charge all day. Oh, also "Retreat!" like Hackett did early on.

[spirosz]

This reminds me of all the whole "cutscene" vs "gameplay" argument.

[robertthebard]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
So the Reapers can't harvest and have to obliterate worlds from orbit. This makes their win lower quality, but won't make them lose. If anything, it makes their strategic problems simpler.

According to the Catalyst they can't do this to every world. They have to save something, apparently. If they are forced into a situation that means they can't do what they need to do, then we win.

As to the next issue with "ping ponging", yeah, so? It's vastly more beneficial to do than yell "CHARGE!" and hope for the best. Hell, if that's the best Alliance admirals need to be able to do, then sign me up. I can yell charge all day. Oh, also "Retreat!" like Hackett did early on.

So we have to win by being exterminated instead of harvested?

[AlanC9]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

According to the Catalyst they can't do this to every world. They have to save something, apparently. If they are forced into a situation that means they can't do what they need to do, then we win.

Don't be silly. They only have to obliterate the industrialized worlds; once every world that can build a dreadnaught has had its productive capacity destroyed, the Reapers can do whatever they please. Even on the industrial worlds, they don't have to kill the whole biosphere. Though the Reapers actually have killed biospheres on occasion

As robertthebard notes, the plan is extermination anyway. Extermination by harvest or extermination by bombing.... not very different.

As to the next issue with "ping ponging", yeah, so? It's vastly more beneficial to do than yell "CHARGE!" and hope for the best. Hell, if that's the best Alliance admirals need to be able to do, then sign me up. I can yell charge all day. Oh, also "Retreat!" like Hackett did early on.

You missed my point. Since everyone would do the tactic, there'd be no net benefit to either side, unless superior Reaper drives gave them an edge. The only net effect of Bio allowing the tactic would be to make the cutscenes look weird and silly.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 avril 2013 - 03:54 .

[kathic]

I have a few points to add that I think make the point.

1) The Protheans fought a war over centuries by attrition and still lost easily. Yes they were cut off from the relays but they could not beat the Reapers even fighting city by city.

2) The Reapers have launched a major offensive against every major power simultaneously. The Batarians did not stand a chance. Humanity saw its fleet defending Earth and Arcturus destroyed in minutes. The largest fleet in the Galaxy (Turians) were taking very very heavy losses and losing ground even with the Krogan. The Asari offered token resistance against the Reapers before Thesia's fall. The Salarians have minimal fleets. Your conventional war was already being fought and lost. Badly.

[Argolas]

kathic wrote...

The Reapers have launched a major offensive against every major power simultaneously.

They haven't. The batarians came first, the humans and turians shortly after that. But the asari were left alone for a long time and the salarians, krogan and quarians hardly bothered at all for most of the game.

[kathic]

Argolas wrote...

kathic wrote...

The Reapers have launched a major offensive against every major power simultaneously.

They haven't. The batarians came first, the humans and turians shortly after that. But the asari were left alone for a long time and the salarians, krogan and quarians hardly bothered at all for most of the game.

The Batarians were destroyed first yes because that was where the Reapers entered the Galaxy. From there they destroyed humanity's power in days. While fighting a full scale war against the Turians and Krogan the Reapers still have the forces to clean up human colonies, attack the Asari and capture the Geth to defeat the Quarians.

[Argolas]

kathic wrote...

Argolas wrote...

kathic wrote...

The Reapers have launched a major offensive against every major power simultaneously.

They haven't. The batarians came first, the humans and turians shortly after that. But the asari were left alone for a long time and the salarians, krogan and quarians hardly bothered at all for most of the game.

The Batarians were destroyed first yes because that was where the Reapers entered the Galaxy. From there they destroyed humanity's power in days. While fighting a full scale war against the Turians and Krogan the Reapers still have the forces to clean up human colonies, attack the Asari and capture the Geth to defeat the Quarians.

Full-scale war against the Krogan? There is only 1 single destroyer sent to tuchanka. The turians, humans and asari together have the reapers pretty much occupied, otherwise the reapers wouldn't have bothered with the geth but simply wiped the quarians out themselves. Also, the reapers lack the fleets to destroy the turian fuel supply.

The reapers are winning, no doubt, but the galaxy is putting up a real fight.

EDIT: Never mind, I saw your sig, you are indoctrinated. You view the reapers with superstitious awe, yes?

Modifié par Argolas, 18 avril 2013 - 04:38 .

[Cheviot]

Argolas wrote...

kathic wrote...

The Reapers have launched a major offensive against every major power simultaneously.

They haven't. The batarians came first, the humans and turians shortly after that. But the asari were left alone for a long time and the salarians, krogan and quarians hardly bothered at all for most of the game.

Clearly, the Reapers go for the Batarians, Turians and Humans in larger numbers than the rest, but I think this is to ensure that the 3 races with the largest organised militaries in the galaxy are put out of commission as early as possible.  From the mention of Reaper incursion (and, obviously, their presence) during the Tuchanka missions, it's pretty clear that the Krogans would've been next had there been no alliance between the Krogan and the Turians.  The Salarians, the Quarians and the Asari alone would not have the military might to be a worry for the Reapers, so they could wait; all the Reapers needed to do with them was to keep them on the defensive.  Kathic's point stands, though: the opening days of the war saw the only slight chance for conventional victory go out the window.

Modifié par Cheviot, 18 avril 2013 - 04:50 .

[kathic]

Argolas wrote...

Full-scale war against the Krogan? There is only 1 single destroyer sent to tuchanka. The turians, humans and asari together have the reapers pretty much occupied, otherwise the reapers wouldn't have bothered with the geth but simply wiped the quarians out themselves. Also, the reapers lack the fleets to destroy the turian fuel supply.

The reapers are winning, no doubt, but the galaxy is putting up a real fight.

EDIT: Never mind, I saw your sig, you are indoctrinated. You view the reapers with superstitious awe, yes?

The Krogan war is on Palavan. The Turians, Humans and Asari are indeed occupying most of the Reaper forces. The problem is that they are all losing and there isn't really another major power. There is no one that can turn the tide of any of these battles. When you visit all of the planets for War Assets you learn that most of them are under Reaper attack. As Vendetta says on Thessia, every cycle fights. They all lose.

As for my sig: Cerberus was right.

[Barquiel]

Tuchanka is also under heavy siege at the end of the game. There is a short cutscene in the epilogue, and you see how the reapers are destroyed (or fly away) on Thessia and Tuchanka.

[Argolas]

Barquiel wrote...

Tuchanka is also under heavy siege at the end of the game. There is a short cutscene in the epilogue, and you see how the reapers are destroyed (or fly away) on Thessia and Tuchanka.

Yes- after the turians abandoned Palaven because the turian fleet had the attention of the bulk of the reapers who weren't on earth.

[Barquiel]

Argolas wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Tuchanka is also under heavy siege at the end of the game. There is a short cutscene in the epilogue, and you see how the reapers are destroyed (or fly away) on Thessia and Tuchanka.

Yes- after the turians abandoned Palaven because the turian fleet had the attention of the bulk of the reapers who weren't on earth.

You're probably right. The Salarians didn't get attacked before the assault on Cronos Station either.

[Troubleshooter11]

Is it me or do the Reapers seem to have gotten more powerful compared to what their strengths seemed to be in ME1?

At first it seemed that this cycle had a shot at surviving because of what the Protheans did to the Citadel, causing Sovereign to resort to using the Geth and a frontal assault of the Citadel to regain control of it. Furthermore, Sovereign's destruction allowing powerful technology such as the Thanex cannon to be developed.

Vigil mentioned that the Reapers are so successful because they jump in right at the Citadel, cutting off all major communications and central government. Dividing the galaxy into piecemeal isolated areas which were then exterminated over the course of several centuries. So control of the Citadel was seemingly vital to their war effort.

Javik also mentioned this cycle has far more diverse races and therefor more chance of using different strategies to win the war.

Yet ME3 rolls along and the huge distance they needed to travel from dark space is trivialized as they arrived about 3-4 years after Sovereign's destruction. They start the war from a corner of the galaxy and are still able to zip around the galaxy, bypassing enemies at will and if they wanted to they could have taken the Citadel within hours of arriving in the galaxy.

I'm sorry but i think the only reason a conventional war is not possible is because the writers wanted a deus ex machina 'space magic' ending and beefed up the Reapers in ME3 so that their ending was the only possible way to win the war. That's the impression/feeling i get from it anyway.

[David7204]

I'm going to go ahead and play Devil's advocate and ask you to go ahead and explain to us how the Reapers are supposed to be defeated so easily.

[Nykara]

robertthebard wrote...

Argolas wrote...

The codex provides clear answers about the possibility of conventional victory.



Reaper Vulnerabilities


Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

Unlike the mass effect relays that they created, Reapers do not have quantum shields. Locking itself down at a quantum level would leave a Reaper unaware of its surroundings until the shielding deactivated. Instead, Reapers rely on kinetic barriers.

In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.

The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed.

The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength.

Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.

Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation.

There's the problem with this codex entry.  While you're getting your 4 dreadnaughts in position, 3 capital ships are shooting at them.  Not to mention any destroyers and the occuli(?).  So unless you're going to catch the estimated 20,000 capital ships 4 on 1 every time, you don't have enough ships, and you can't rebuild them fast enough to keep up.  According to a report on the Spectre terminal, it's estimated that the galaxy can only hold out for about another year, and they are out of resources.  This is, of course, compounded by the fact that the Reapers are taking out manufacturing hubs anywhere they find them.  I linked an article earlier that shows it takes 7 years to build a modern aircraft carrier, which are the largest ships in our Navy.  How long does it take to build a dreadnaught?  It won't be very long until that's not an issue, since you won't have the resources to build them anyway.

If you get into a war of attrition with the Reapers, you're going to lose because they can and will cut your supply lines, but they can replenish their ground troops on every planet, with the people they harvest.  They're not running out of troops until you run out of people.  Beginning to see the problem here?

Actually, the best way to take out a Reaper is not large ships at all but in fact a bunch of smaller fighters - they can move faster then the beams on a reaper vessel and still be able to fire at the vulnerable point. Frankly a bunch of fighters could get the job done better and safer.

[SinerAthin]

Reapers can be destroyed conventionally.

But you'll need a lot more ships, tropps and guns.

The factions in Mass Effect are too small though. You'd need a faction like, the Imperium of Man from WH40k to defeat the Reapers conventionally.

[chemiclord]

I appreciated the balance Bioware tried to strike... not so powerful that had the galaxy been united and been investing in that fight from the beginning with everything they had (i.e. being proactive) they could have had a chance.

But as they were, divided by what were petty squabbles in comparison (Really, Dalatress, you're worried about the krogan getting revenge on you as Reapers are trucking the galaxy? Really Tevos, with everything that's happening, the asari were willing to sit on this vital piece because of technological superiority over the other races?)... they had no chance.

The balance really didn't come off terribly well (though I'm not sure how I would tried to do it better), but that's how I saw it.

[SinerAthin]

chemiclord wrote...

I appreciated the balance Bioware tried to strike... not so powerful that had the galaxy been united and been investing in that fight from the beginning with everything they had (i.e. being proactive) they could have had a chance.

But as they were, divided by what were petty squabbles in comparison (Really, Dalatress, you're worried about the krogan getting revenge on you as Reapers are trucking the galaxy? Really Tevos, with everything that's happening, the asari were willing to sit on this vital piece because of technological superiority over the other races?)... they had no chance.

The balance really didn't come off terribly well (though I'm not sure how I would tried to do it better), but that's how I saw it.

I disagree a little bit about the Dalatress.

Even though she was one of history's worst rhetorics and diplomats, she did hold a valid point.

What was the point of winning the war if the Krogan conquered us all right afterwards?

[robertthebard]

SinerAthin wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I appreciated the balance Bioware tried to strike... not so powerful that had the galaxy been united and been investing in that fight from the beginning with everything they had (i.e. being proactive) they could have had a chance.

But as they were, divided by what were petty squabbles in comparison (Really, Dalatress, you're worried about the krogan getting revenge on you as Reapers are trucking the galaxy? Really Tevos, with everything that's happening, the asari were willing to sit on this vital piece because of technological superiority over the other races?)... they had no chance.

The balance really didn't come off terribly well (though I'm not sure how I would tried to do it better), but that's how I saw it.

I disagree a little bit about the Dalatress.

Even though she was one of history's worst rhetorics and diplomats, she did hold a valid point.

What was the point of winning the war if the Krogan conquered us all right afterwards?

Because they would be hit as hard, since their foot soldiers are on the ground everywhere?  I do agree with her comment though, a bully has few friends when they need them most, and that time would have been when the Reapers hit Sur'Kesh, and everyone else was too busy to help.  Unless, of course, Wreav is in charge, then all bets are off.