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[robertthebard]

Nykara wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Argolas wrote...

The codex provides clear answers about the possibility of conventional victory.



Reaper Vulnerabilities


Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

Unlike the mass effect relays that they created, Reapers do not have quantum shields. Locking itself down at a quantum level would leave a Reaper unaware of its surroundings until the shielding deactivated. Instead, Reapers rely on kinetic barriers.

In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.

The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed.

The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength.

Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.

Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation.

There's the problem with this codex entry.  While you're getting your 4 dreadnaughts in position, 3 capital ships are shooting at them.  Not to mention any destroyers and the occuli(?).  So unless you're going to catch the estimated 20,000 capital ships 4 on 1 every time, you don't have enough ships, and you can't rebuild them fast enough to keep up.  According to a report on the Spectre terminal, it's estimated that the galaxy can only hold out for about another year, and they are out of resources.  This is, of course, compounded by the fact that the Reapers are taking out manufacturing hubs anywhere they find them.  I linked an article earlier that shows it takes 7 years to build a modern aircraft carrier, which are the largest ships in our Navy.  How long does it take to build a dreadnaught?  It won't be very long until that's not an issue, since you won't have the resources to build them anyway.

If you get into a war of attrition with the Reapers, you're going to lose because they can and will cut your supply lines, but they can replenish their ground troops on every planet, with the people they harvest.  They're not running out of troops until you run out of people.  Beginning to see the problem here?

Actually, the best way to take out a Reaper is not large ships at all but in fact a bunch of smaller fighters - they can move faster then the beams on a reaper vessel and still be able to fire at the vulnerable point. Frankly a bunch of fighters could get the job done better and safer.

The problem with that, unless it was just unique to Rannoch, is targeting that spot.  That's why Shepard had to paint the target, and tie the entire fleet to Normandy's targeting system.  It would have to be done line of sight, and misses would be costly, since the Reapers have fighter squadrons too.

[SinerAthin]

robertthebard wrote...

Because they would be hit as hard, since their foot soldiers are on the ground everywhere?  I do agree with her comment though, a bully has few friends when they need them most, and that time would have been when the Reapers hit Sur'Kesh, and everyone else was too busy to help.  Unless, of course, Wreav is in charge, then all bets are off.

Of all the races in the galaxy, the Krogan were perhaps the race that was hit the least by the Reapers(mainly because they had already been nuked and bio-bombed from before).

The problem appears when you realize that you have a whole galaxy that is in disarrey, with every major specie beaten down into the dirt.
Other than maybe the Asari, there is no race that can breed as fast as the Krogan, and in a galaxy thorn apart by war, they would experience an astonishing, rapid advance.

The Krogan gave the Council a lot of trouble when the Council races were at their full power. Now imagine the chaos that would ensue if they challanged the battered council races.

[Xilizhra]

Of all the races in the galaxy, the Krogan were perhaps the race that was hit the least by the Reapers(mainly because they had already been nuked and bio-bombed from before).

Actually, the salarians were hit the least hard of all the major powers; the Reapers didn't even show up on Sur'Kesh until the very end of the war. Probably because the salarians have a smaller population and economy than the asari, and their military tactics just aren't as dangerous to the Reapers as those of the turians and humans.

[robertthebard]

SinerAthin wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Because they would be hit as hard, since their foot soldiers are on the ground everywhere?  I do agree with her comment though, a bully has few friends when they need them most, and that time would have been when the Reapers hit Sur'Kesh, and everyone else was too busy to help.  Unless, of course, Wreav is in charge, then all bets are off.

Of all the races in the galaxy, the Krogan were perhaps the race that was hit the least by the Reapers(mainly because they had already been nuked and bio-bombed from before).

The problem appears when you realize that you have a whole galaxy that is in disarrey, with every major specie beaten down into the dirt.
Other than maybe the Asari, there is no race that can breed as fast as the Krogan, and in a galaxy thorn apart by war, they would experience an astonishing, rapid advance.

The Krogan gave the Council a lot of trouble when the Council races were at their full power. Now imagine the chaos that would ensue if they challanged the battered council races.

...and I agree with Shepard:  ..will be nothing compared to what happens if the Reapers win.  We're not negotiating because we're tired of hearing the Krogan complain, we're negotiating because we need the support for the Crucible, and we're not doing it just for Earth.  Barring Wreav in charge, despite claims I've seen to the contrary, Wrex and Bakara will have a strong base for continued leadership, and Mordin's not only voluntary, but eager participation in the cure will carry some weight, if not a lot.  Yes, it's been 1400 years, and there's going to be a lot, which is probably an understatement on a galactic scale, of resentment, but, the Genophage is over.  It would be far better to take a supportive position, when you know 2 of 4 Council seats are arguing against you, than to let fear dictate your actions, which is what the Dalatrass is doing.  Victus is the Primarch of Palaven, which means he's higher rank than the Councilor, and Shepard is acting both as a Spectre, one of the few times it actually comes up, and with the full authority of Earth.  Being reasonable might go a long way towards appeasing some of the angry Krogan, and actually getting the cure done might appease enough more to keep them, depending on what the Council decides to do, from waging another war so soon after the Reaper war.

It's sound logic, but all guess work.  They could decide to go to war.  However, they are going to take heavy losses because they are on the ground on Palaven, along with the Turians, who are taking heavy losses, so even with astronomical birthrates, they aren't going to be well set for a few years anyway, depending on how long it takes all those kids to grow up.

[Nykara]

robertthebard wrote...

Nykara wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Argolas wrote...

The codex provides clear answers about the possibility of conventional victory.



Reaper Vulnerabilities


Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

Unlike the mass effect relays that they created, Reapers do not have quantum shields. Locking itself down at a quantum level would leave a Reaper unaware of its surroundings until the shielding deactivated. Instead, Reapers rely on kinetic barriers.

In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.

The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed.

The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength.

Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.

Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation.

There's the problem with this codex entry.  While you're getting your 4 dreadnaughts in position, 3 capital ships are shooting at them.  Not to mention any destroyers and the occuli(?).  So unless you're going to catch the estimated 20,000 capital ships 4 on 1 every time, you don't have enough ships, and you can't rebuild them fast enough to keep up.  According to a report on the Spectre terminal, it's estimated that the galaxy can only hold out for about another year, and they are out of resources.  This is, of course, compounded by the fact that the Reapers are taking out manufacturing hubs anywhere they find them.  I linked an article earlier that shows it takes 7 years to build a modern aircraft carrier, which are the largest ships in our Navy.  How long does it take to build a dreadnaught?  It won't be very long until that's not an issue, since you won't have the resources to build them anyway.

If you get into a war of attrition with the Reapers, you're going to lose because they can and will cut your supply lines, but they can replenish their ground troops on every planet, with the people they harvest.  They're not running out of troops until you run out of people.  Beginning to see the problem here?

Actually, the best way to take out a Reaper is not large ships at all but in fact a bunch of smaller fighters - they can move faster then the beams on a reaper vessel and still be able to fire at the vulnerable point. Frankly a bunch of fighters could get the job done better and safer.

The problem with that, unless it was just unique to Rannoch, is targeting that spot.  That's why Shepard had to paint the target, and tie the entire fleet to Normandy's targeting system.  It would have to be done line of sight, and misses would be costly, since the Reapers have fighter squadrons too.

By the time of the war they have all of the smartest people working together I am sure someone could come up with a targeting program that'd work On Rannoch it was very on the spot and that Reaper was on the ground while the fleet was in space. On earth they basically did the same thing with misile targeting - both on the ground that one wasn't painted.

[chemiclord]

Actually, on Earth, doesn't EDI use the Normandy's systems in conjuction with the missle sled to paint the target? That's what I recall anyway.

[Syphon2008]

In me1 the mako is launched through the back door relay via teleportation. If it was a normal relay wouldn't the Mako simply explode on the outside of the citadel at FTL?
Another thing that supports teleportation/phasing would be the fact that the vanguard and banshee's biotic charge allows you to phase through objects...

Couldn't they just forget the crucible idea altogether or even start researching teleportation after the Mako phasing into the citadel unscathed? Because if teleportation could be possible then we could phase bombs into the reapers.

Idk, bioware kinda jumped around on how technology works in their universe.

[outlaw1109]

Yeah they did. What I don't understand is, why Shepard didn't just time the destruction of the Alpha relay to coincide with the Reaper arrival. I mean, the timer was there (so shep could time it just right) and the resulting "explosion" should have taken care of the entire reaper armada.

But then there would have only been two games.

Further, if the Protheans were so "severe" as Javik emulates, why didn't THEY start blowing up mass relays? The Krogan were capable of flinging asteroids around and they were, even at their peak, one of the least evolved species (I believe). So why couldn't the Protheans hurl around some asteroids and deal with problem systematically?

Granted, one might lose their homeworld, but if it means surviving/ending the "cycle", why not?

Modifié par outlaw1109, 03 janvier 2014 - 02:19 .

[outlaw1109]

crap, good point. Been awhile since I played ME1...but my initial argument about arrival/asteroid flinging still stands.

Modifié par outlaw1109, 03 janvier 2014 - 02:25 .

[Nightwriter]

It isn't the idea that they can be destroyed conventionally that is perhaps unfairly dismissed, but rather the idea that they can be severely weakened and then destroyed conventionally. Many stories entail immortal villains who are only defeated because someone found out how to turn them mortal -- yet in the end, it is a common sword thrust that actually slays them.

[JamesFaith]

outlaw1109 wrote...

Yeah they did. What I don't understand is, why Shepard didn't just time the destruction of the Alpha relay to coincide with the Reaper arrival. I mean, the timer was there (so shep could time it just right) and the resulting "explosion" should have taken care of the entire reaper armada.

Few major flaws here.

First - assumption that all Reapers would appear at once. It would be more flow of many huge formations.

Second - even one Reaper coming through should be able to destroy/divert our asteroid. Thanks Harbingers they know that something is happenning in arrival area.

Third - Reapers should appear directly between asteroid and relay and resulting crash would divert asteroid.

Fourth - Reapers should jump in and immediatelly move to FTL and fly away from explosion.

There would be too many too big risks that any delay would end with full scale invasion.

[AlanC9]

Syphon2008 wrote...

In me1 the mako is launched through the back door relay via teleportation. If it was a normal relay wouldn't the Mako simply explode on the outside of the citadel at FTL?
Another thing that supports teleportation/phasing would be the fact that the vanguard and banshee's biotic charge allows you to phase through objects...
 

It was pretty much implicit in relay tech that you can't collide with stuff. At those speeds hitting interstellar gas would incinerate the ship. Or so I'm told; I never did the math myself.

I agree that Bio didn't think this stuff through.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 janvier 2014 - 04:43 .

[AlanC9]

Nightwriter wrote...

It isn't the idea that they can be destroyed conventionally that is perhaps unfairly dismissed, but rather the idea that they can be severely weakened and then destroyed conventionally. Many stories entail immortal villains who are only defeated because someone found out how to turn them mortal -- yet in the end, it is a common sword thrust that actually slays them.

Doesn't that trope require you to start with a normal being with an overlay of Invincibility Magic X?

Though Independence Day pulled it in something that pretended to be sci-fi, yep. But it's pretty stupid. If you csn knock out the shields, why not the engines too?

[outlaw1109]

JamesFaith wrote...

Few major flaws here.

First - assumption that all Reapers would appear at once. It would be more flow of many huge formations.

Second - even one Reaper coming through should be able to destroy/divert our asteroid. Thanks Harbingers they know that something is happenning in arrival area.

Third - Reapers should appear directly between asteroid and relay and resulting crash would divert asteroid.

Fourth - Reapers should jump in and immediatelly move to FTL and fly away from explosion.

There would be too many too big risks that any delay would end with full scale invasion.

Ok.

First: Even if it's in formations, one of the last images in ME2 was of a sizable force. Given the Reaper reproduction method, I doubt losing those numbers would be a part of their pre-invasion plan.  Also, why wouldn't they?  Coming in waves would signify caution.  They're arrogant and think they can't be stopped.

Second: They know, but they don't have to be close enough to destroy the asteroid for this to work. The destruction of the relay causes the entire NEBULA to get wiped off the map.

Third: Why would they "appear" between the asteroid and the relay? They're in dark space. Using conventional FTL drives, not jumping through a relay. The Alpha Relay connects them to the Relay network, hence why Shepard destroys it...

Fourth: While I understand and respect the validity of this argument, I don't think escaping the Nebula is possible without the Mass Relay, and...

I understand that these machines are able to react in nano seconds, but that doesn't really matter. Once they're in the nebula, heading toward the relay, the asteroid hits relay and takes out the entire nebula, not just one star system.

Their speed would actually be their undoing. Given the fact that if the timer reaches zero they still show up and use the Alpha Relay, so they're still coming to the relay regardless of Shepard's actions. Timing would be everything, but I was thinking that the Relay explosion would have to occur just as they were arriving. Bam, a large part of the invasion would be diverted and the rest delayed (if they didn't bring their entire force, which I'm not completely sure they would avoid doing so.)

Modifié par outlaw1109, 03 janvier 2014 - 05:59 .

[AlanC9]

outlaw1109 wrote...


I understand that these machines are able to react in nano seconds, but that doesn't really matter. Once they're in the nebula, heading toward the relay, the asteroid hits relay and takes out the entire nebula, not just one star system.

Nebula? What nebula?

Anyway, either the Reapers are on the galaxy side of the relay, or the dark space side. On the galaxy side, they can activate FTL  within seconds and be utterly safe. On the far side they can't be harmed at all.

Even assuming the Reapers were stupid enough not to look ahead before entering the Relay -- how many plans for Reaper defeat require Reaper idiocy? -- the time window for pulling this off is very small. And even if Shepard can somehow guess the exact moment that the Reapers come through the relay, how does Shepard control the asteroid enough to impact within those few seconds? It's not a matter of pushing a button and instantly putting the asteroid in motion.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I guess Shepard could time it so the asteroid hits the Relay when the counter hits zero (or something close to it).

[Seival]

nukembaby wrote...

Can't destroy the Reapers conventionally. Really?

Really.

/end of story.

[AlexMBrennan]

In me1 the mako is launched through the back door relay via teleportation. If it was a normal relay wouldn't the Mako simply explode on the outside of the citadel at FTL?

Because the writers don't care about their own lore?

Couldn't they just forget the crucible idea altogether or even start researching teleportation after the Mako phasing into the citadel unscathed? Because if teleportation could be possible then we could phase bombs into the reapers.

Even assuming that the Ilos relay somehow proves that teleportation is possible there is still the problem of time: The reapers have a technological advantage of several billion years, so it is incredibly unlikely that humanity will come up with a breakthrough and develop working phase weapons capable of defeating the Reapers in the maybe ten years we have before the Reapers killed everyone.

Yeah they did. What I don't understand is, why Shepard didn't just time the destruction of the Alpha relay to coincide with the Reaper arrival. I mean, the timer was there (so shep could time it just right) and the resulting "explosion" should have taken care of the entire reaper armada.

Relay explosion: Sub-light speed; Reaper travel speed: FTL. In ME, you can outrun EVERYTHING as long as you see it coming (i.e. anything other than beam weapons)... which is why the ME universe is a very poor setting for space battles. This is explicitly pointed out in the codex in ME1.

Further, if the Protheans were so "severe" as Javik emulates, why didn't THEY start blowing up mass relays? The Krogan were capable of flinging asteroids around and they were, even at their peak, one of the least evolved species (I believe). So why couldn't the Protheans hurl around some asteroids and deal with problem systematically?

Again, destroying relays won't kill Reapers; however, blowing up relays could have been used as a "burnt Earth" strategy (deny the Reapers the harvest whilst destroying their infrastructure might even have caused them to delay their invasion until after the protheans had forgotten about them, or succumbed to internal infighting and so on).

The true explanation, of course, is that Bioware arbitrarily made relays vulnerable for cheap drama in Arrival, and promptly retconned things when the implications turned out to be bad.

Fourth: While I understand and respect the validity of this argument, I don't think escaping the Nebula is possible without the Mass Relay, and...

Dude, the Reapers have travelled all the way across the galaxy without mass relays, and manage to get to Citadel space without using the Arrival relay (which was destroyed) in six months, so obviously the Reapers don't need relays (hint: how do you think they crossed those distances to build the relays in the first place?)

how many plans for Reaper defeat require Reaper idiocy?

All of them? Harbinger made no effort to defend the Collector base despite knowing that Shepard was coming (having booby trapped the IFF to broadcast the Normandy's location, and used this to abduct the crew), none of the Reapers used their main guns in the final battle over London (remember the Klendagon crater? Made by guys who lost to the Reapers? Can you imagine Shepard dodging fire from 250+ Reapers who presumably have even more powerful guns, never mind the detail that the Reapers could easily have won by a) not moving the Citadel into Earth orbit or just turning off the magical space elevator)

[outlaw1109]

AlanC9 wrote...

Nebula? What nebula?

The Batarian Bahak system is a part of the Viper Nebula.  When you select it on the galaxy map, you're selecting Viper Nebula, but the Relay is in the Bahak system.  There are other systems nearby that also get exterminated.

AlexMBrennan wrote...
Relay explosion: Sub-light speed; Reaper travel speed: FTL. In ME, you can outrun EVERYTHING as long as you see it coming (i.e. anything other than beam weapons)... which is why the ME universe is a very poor setting for space battles. This is explicitly pointed out in the codex in ME1.

I was admittedly a lil shaky in my knowledge of whether or not FTL would be faster than the explosion...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Fourth: While I understand and respect the validity of this argument, I don't think escaping the Nebula is possible without the Mass Relay, and...

Dude, the Reapers have travelled all the way across the galaxy without mass relays, and manage to get to Citadel space without using the Arrival relay (which was destroyed) in six months, so obviously the Reapers don't need relays (hint: how do you think they crossed those distances to build the relays in the first place?)

I should have specified.  I meant "escape it before the Alpha Relay exploded."  Because I'm not sure at what speed the effects of said explosion would travel.  I guess I was thinking it would catch them by surprise if it was timed right.

I know they travel without the relays (That's the whole premise to the Arrival story, they have to travel at normal FTL until they get to the Alpha Relay).

[TheMyron]

Auintus wrote...

An RPG right in the eye! Where's one when you need it?

[TheMyron]

StreetMagic wrote...

I liked it better when games had tough enemies because the actual gameplay was tough. Not because some writer declares it so. Let the gameplay and narrative reinforce each other. Put the challenge of the fight in the hands of the player. Not the character.

It's a difficult paradigm for me to adjust to. But common among RPGs, I guess.

That reminds me, does Kai Leng ever actually shoot back during the Battle of Thessia, or does he just cartwheel around until he summons his invincible gunship with its bulletproof spotlight?

[outlaw1109]

TheMyron wrote...


That reminds me, does Kai Leng ever actually shoot back during the Battle of Thessia, or does he just cartwheel around until he summons his invincible gunship with its bulletproof spotlight?

I was so disappointed by any encounter I had with him.  Thane had a better fight with KL than Shepard did.  I expected KL to somehow neutralize Shep's guns and force some hand-to-hand fighting...(IE:  a more refined shadow broker type fight)

[Oni Changas]

In reviewing this thread I REALLY hope no other BioWare villain has so much BS behind it. Pushing an iWIN button was a terrible idea from the start of ME3.

ME2 gave us hope that we could get a WAR to fight the reapers, and prepping astutely and intelligently would get us a chance to defeat them eventually.

And on the KL note, it should have been a 1 on three gun battle at first, make him a tough SOB like Insanity Broker, but with MP Phantom speed, damage reduction, damage, and aggressiveness. The last battle could have been a chance for something unique to Mass Effect, like a melee battle with different gameplay mechanics. GOD they squandered and ruined one of my most favorite characters in the series with each of his appearances outside of his initial one in Retribution. KL should be Jack Krauser in every sort of way. Think about it.

Both knew (of) protagonist/shared a common field of expertise (elite soldiers)
Both are extremely adaptive
Both are deadly with knives
Both use and embrace an "evil" power (reaper tech/Las Plagas)

Modifié par OniTYME, 04 janvier 2014 - 04:12 .