642 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

outlaw1109 wrote...
The Batarian Bahak system is a part of the Viper Nebula.  When you select it on the galaxy map, you're selecting Viper Nebula, but the Relay is in the Bahak system.  There are other systems nearby that also get exterminated.

When was the destruction of the other systems established? I don't recall seeing that, but I don't own Arrival. 

I should have specified.  I meant "escape it before the Alpha Relay exploded."  Because I'm not sure at what speed the effects of said explosion would travel.  I guess I was thinking it would catch them by surprise if it was timed right.

No mass effect field for a natural phenomenon, so lightspeed's the limit.

[ImaginaryMatter]

TheMyron wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I liked it better when games had tough enemies because the actual gameplay was tough. Not because some writer declares it so. Let the gameplay and narrative reinforce each other. Put the challenge of the fight in the hands of the player. Not the character.

It's a difficult paradigm for me to adjust to. But common among RPGs, I guess.

That reminds me, does Kai Leng ever actually shoot back during the Battle of Thessia, or does he just cartwheel around until he summons his invincible gunship with its bulletproof spotlight?

He was too busy needing to recharge.

[NeroonWilliams]

OniTYME wrote...

In reviewing this thread I REALLY hope no other BioWare villain has so much BS behind it. Pushing an iWIN button was a terrible idea from the start of ME3.

ME2 gave us hope that we could get a WAR to fight the reapers, and prepping astutely and intelligently would get us a chance to defeat them eventually.

And on the KL note, it should have been a 1 on three gun battle at first, make him a tough SOB like Insanity Broker, but with MP Phantom speed, damage reduction, damage, and aggressiveness. The last battle could have been a chance for something unique to Mass Effect, like a melee battle with different gameplay mechanics. GOD they squandered and ruined one of my most favorite characters in the series with each of his appearances outside of his initial one in Retribution. KL should be Jack Krauser in every sort of way. Think about it.

Both knew (of) protagonist/shared a common field of expertise (elite soldiers)
Both are extremely adaptive
Both are deadly with knives
Both use and embrace an "evil" power (reaper tech/Las Plagas)

The biggest problem with what you've just proposed is that ME is a RPG/TPS and most definitely NOT an RTS.  And as near as I can tell, there will never be a RTS that comes out of BW.  They make RPG/TPS games.

One way to REALLY alienate the masses is to completely change the game system (not just in the Boss Fight kind of way) at the end of the game.

[Nightwriter]

AlanC9 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It isn't the idea that they can be destroyed conventionally that is perhaps unfairly dismissed, but rather the idea that they can be severely weakened and then destroyed conventionally. Many stories entail immortal villains who are only defeated because someone found out how to turn them mortal -- yet in the end, it is a common sword thrust that actually slays them.

Doesn't that trope require you to start with a normal being with an overlay of Invincibility Magic X?

Though Independence Day pulled it in something that pretended to be sci-fi, yep. But it's pretty stupid. If you csn knock out the shields, why not the engines too?

Not particularly, no.

I am thrown by the Independence Day reference. Is there some reason you think this would have to work like it did in that movie?

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

I am thrown by the Independence Day reference. Is there some reason you think this would have to work like it did in that movie?

Because the movie is ridiculous and therefore the idea that Reapers can be defeated is ridiculous.

Crucible?  Not at all ridiculous <_<

[Reorte]

NeroonWilliams wrote...

The biggest problem with what you've just proposed is that ME is a RPG/TPS and most definitely NOT an RTS.  And as near as I can tell, there will never be a RTS that comes out of BW.  They make RPG/TPS games.

One way to REALLY alienate the masses is to completely change the game system (not just in the Boss Fight kind of way) at the end of the game.

The lesson there is to avoid coming up with a story that really requires an RTS-type of approach to conclude. If you're going for one man / small team stories stick to the sort of problems that they can deal with, unless you don't mind them only playing a minor role in the conclusion.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

iakus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I am thrown by the Independence Day reference. Is there some reason you think this would have to work like it did in that movie?

Because the movie is ridiculous and therefore the idea that Reapers can be defeated is ridiculous.

Crucible?  Not at all ridiculous <_<

Not as much as ID, no.

The Crucible as a concept actually works very well. It had a bad execution, but fix that, and you might actually have something very good.

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I am thrown by the Independence Day reference. Is there some reason you think this would have to work like it did in that movie?

Because the movie is ridiculous and therefore the idea that Reapers can be defeated is ridiculous.

Crucible?  Not at all ridiculous <_<

There are some ridiculous parts to the Crucible's execution, but they're small potatoes compared to ID4's bullcrap.

[Rusty Sandusky]

Just be thankful that ME3 isn't Independence Day aka. Nosebleed and Headache: The Movie.

[Nightwriter]

iakus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I am thrown by the Independence Day reference. Is there some reason you think this would have to work like it did in that movie?

Because the movie is ridiculous and therefore the idea that Reapers can be defeated is ridiculous.

Crucible?  Not at all ridiculous <_<

That was my first assumption, but also the worst assumption, so I tried to restrain that impulse.

C'mon, Alan. Prove my cynicism wrong bebbeh.

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...


That was my first assumption, but also the worst assumption, so I tried to restrain that impulse.

C'mon, Alan. Prove my cynicism wrong bebbeh.

I admit my time here has made me bitter and cynical.

It seems that many people assume that any victory without the Crucible is considered a "conventional victory" no different than simply flinging cruisers headlong at the Reapers' wall of battle.

Being unconventional can mean a wide margin of things, and is not limited to simply deploying the Mass Effect version of The One Ring.

[Iakus]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

It took like half of the Alliance fleet to take out a Geth platoon and ONE Reaper.

And we're still having this conversation? Really?

One fleet.

And it was the bulk of the Heretic geth and one Reaper.

Most of the losses appear to have been from the geth too.

[Iakus]

The Mad Hanar wrote...]

You realize that makes it worse, right? The Alliance has trouble with one army and a Reaper, yet people expect the galaxy to kill thousands upon thousands of Reapers.

It's really just plain silly.

Yeah, and a civilization of space vagabonds eventually found a way to destroy the geth.

How, you might ask?

Through unconventional methods

Modifié par iakus, 04 janvier 2014 - 03:19 .

[Ledgend1221]

The reapers can't be beaten because they have the greatest weapon in the history of games:
Terrible writing.

[AlexMBrennan]

How, you might ask?
Through unconventional methods

Unless they didn't.
The quarians would have died if they hadn't been for competent non-quarian soldiers saving their assess (e.g. by boarding the geth flagship), so unless you want to pull an even more technologically advanced species from your hat (e.g. Leviathans) to kill the reapers for you this strategy isn't going to work.

[outlaw1109]

AlanC9 wrote...


When was the destruction of the other systems established? I don't recall seeing that, but I don't own Arrival. 

...

No mass effect field for a natural phenomenon, so lightspeed's the limit.

1.  It's the end of the DLC..."as a huge mass effect engine manipulating massive quantities of energy, a relay could produce an explosion of supernova proportions." (per the codex).

This was somehow retconned in ME3, but I didn't bother with the ME3 codex stuff, so I'm not sure how...

2.  Technically, there is a mass effect field.  Considering the above quote from the codex which references "huge mass effect engine".  Also, the relays use mass effect fields to...um, function.  So...yeah...mass effect field is present.

Modifié par outlaw1109, 04 janvier 2014 - 04:20 .

[Nightwriter]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

It took like half of the Alliance fleet to take out a Geth platoon and ONE Reaper.

And we're still having this conversation? Really?

Well, yeah.

Look, it's not "conventional vs Crucible" really. The underlying argument is "The Way BioWare Did It vs. Some Other Way."

There are lots of different offshoots of Some Other Way. Conventional victory is one of them, perhaps one of the more misguided. But the underlying elements are the same: The Way BioWare Did It haz hated Catalyst and Icky Ickies (see: can't win on own steam, don't agree with the problem, hate the solutions, dislike Catalyst -- list is endless). The Some Other Way (in this case, conventional victory) haz winning on our own and no Icky Ickies.

So for as long as people are unsatisfied with the endings there will probably always be a few who are emotionally drawn to conventional victory despite the clear problems it has if it isn't coupled with something clever. Maybe it's because that is the only method they hear mentioned in the game aside from the Crucible, I don't know. Maybe it's that some people wanted EMS to matter more, wanted to believe it could be possible to win martially if you play all your cards absolutely perfectly. Maybe "let's just fricking charge them" is the first thought that enters their minds after "God that ending sucked what was that kid even saying I am so confused." I really don't know.

Either way, it got talked about so much that somewhere along the line Some Other Way and "winning purely conventionally" got muddied together, until people started assuming you supported conventional victory if you opposed the Catalyst at all.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 04 janvier 2014 - 04:25 .

[Iakus]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

How, you might ask?
Through unconventional methods

Unless they didn't.
The quarians would have died if they hadn't been for competent non-quarian soldiers saving their assess (e.g. by boarding the geth flagship), so unless you want to pull an even more technologically advanced species from your hat (e.g. Leviathans) to kill the reapers for you this strategy isn't going to work.

Because the geth played a game of one-upsmanship with superweapons via Reaper Code.

The argument was that because the Alliance got torn up by a fleet of geth ships the Alliance can't possibly beat the Reapers conventioanlly.

I am pointing out that the quarians found a way to beat the geth using unconventional means.  They found a weakness in the geth and exploited it.  One that doesn't rely on massive amounts of polychromatic space magic.

I say there is little reason the Alliance (and the galaxy as a whole) couldn't have done that with the Reapers.  Heck that could have solved the sequel problem right there, with ME3 being about finding weapons to level the playing field rather than bulding the galaxy's biggest magic wand

.  ME4 and beyond could have been a series of war stories about fighting the Reapers

[BaladasDemnevanni]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

iakus wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...]

You realize that makes it worse, right? The Alliance has trouble with one army and a Reaper, yet people expect the galaxy to kill thousands upon thousands of Reapers.

It's really just plain silly.

Yeah, and a civilization of space vagabonds eventually found a way to destroy the geth.

How, you might ask?

Through unconventional methods

That brings us back to my original point; a conventional victory over the Reapers makes no sense.

Really, that mindset is what prevented me from being disappointed by the ending. It was always going to be a superweapon or some other major asspull because they made the Reapers waaay too OP.

Agreed. "Unconventional methods" itself becomes a magic wand allowing our, somehow special cycle, to think of methods of combat which wouldn't have occurred to any other civilization.

[JamesFaith]

outlaw1109 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

When was the destruction of the other systems established? I don't recall seeing that, but I don't own Arrival. 

1.  It's the end of the DLC..."as a huge mass effect engine manipulating massive quantities of energy, a relay could produce an explosion of supernova proportions." (per the codex).

This was somehow retconned in ME3, but I didn't bother with the ME3 codex stuff, so I'm not sure how...

Using could instead will is major factor here.

Because there were no known explosion of relay in past it was pure guess and result should be both more and less strong that expectation. Guesses about first nuclear bomb were also somewhere between much smaller explosion and igniting of Earth atmosphere.

[Iakus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Agreed. "Unconventional methods" itself becomes a magic wand allowing our, somehow special cycle, to think of methods of combat which wouldn't have occurred to any other civilization.

this cycle had things no other cycle had:  Forewarning of what was to come, and control of the Citadel when they arrived.

I admit Bioware pretty much ...urinated...most of that away by spinning our wheels throughout ME2...

[JamesFaith]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Agreed. "Unconventional methods" itself becomes a magic wand allowing our, somehow special cycle, to think of methods of combat which wouldn't have occurred to any other civilization.

Yeap, this is my main problem with majority of alternative proposal.

Proposed methods (nuclear weapons, lasers, EMP...) are so obvious strategies that someone have to tried it before us and Reapers have to be ready for them.