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#51
Das Tentakel

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Addai67 wrote...

However they do show patronage relationships in the series, and from episode one you see the jarl undermining them and people resenting him for it and going against him. That's the problem with that criticism. It assumes there was never a jarl in history who ever tried to overstep his bounds and got slapped for it. Really? In what sort of world don't powerful men want more power?


Well, it’s a bit hard for me discussing this while I haven’t seen the series (haven’t seen any reviews by European reenactors, historians or history buffs either, Van der Hoek, while Dutch-born, is himself American). However, the Spectator article struck me as ideologically charged. Friends and acquaintances who are into the period and Iron Age Germanic societies would probably frown when it comes to the ‘democracy’ argument. More ‘democratic’ than the more centralized societies to the south of them, but not really democracy as we would understand it now. All those pagan Germanic societies were stratified and cyclically underwent processes of (if only temporary or limited) centralisation. Equality and freedom were always relative and fluctuating.
The kind of ‘freeholder democracy’ Mr. Walker talked about persisted in some parts of Scandinavia and the German Empire (Dithmarschen, a large chunk of the Netherlands, certain Alpine regions) for a long time, and that’s much better documented. There could be huge gaps in wealth and power between top and bottom of the freeholders.

Regarding the costumes & props, the designer is apparently Joan Bergin, who also did the Tudors. She’s probably one of the worst to take if you want historically accurate costumes, since she takes considerable, erm, ‘liberties’ and takes pride in that. I remember a short interview where she more or less fulminated against codpieces, and kept them out of her costumes. She’s the woman you want if you want glamorous semi-generic costumes for a not particularly well-informed audience. I don’t mean she’s a bad costume designer, just not the one you want for an ‘accurate’ costume drama.

It’s an old story though. Friends and acquaintances of mine who have some experience with the movie industry told me long ago that the problem’s not the budget (40 million dollars, the reputed budget, is moooooooooore than enough for buying or manufacturing lots of fairly accurate, decent-quality kit in Europe), it’s a general attitude of going for the easy and familiar. ‘The Vikings’ goes a bit more in the direction of accuracy than most, I’ll grant that, but it’s still far behind European productions of the last decade or so (barring the half-horrible, half-decent German ‘Nibelungen’ mini-series).

Edit:
Found a bit more about the costumes. Apparently ( variety.com/2013/tv/news/historys-vikings-ready-to-make-nordic-impression-821069/, they made some 300 costumes themselves and modified 500 rentals (for your information: Custom-made fairly accurate clothing would have cost around 30,000-100,000 euros, depending on how fancy it has to look. Of course, that would have made part of the props department unemployed...;)).

Here's an article about Bergin and her costumes: popstyle.ew.com/2013/03/18/vikings-costume-designer-on-dressing-pillagers-and-plunderers-for-the-history-channel-series/.

While I agree that photographing a couple of mannequins in, say, Moesgard museum isn't going to provide much visual variety, a bit of wider research would quickly have yielded great dividends. Then again, for Mrs. Bergin this is just a job between the last one and the next one.

Anyway, maybe the (relative) success of the 'Vikings' might give some fresh impetus to European attempts at similar series.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 26 avril 2013 - 11:07 .


#52
Addai

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I'll just say I have no problems with the costumer's work. I saw nothing that screamed to me like it belonged in another era or place, and most importantly, nothing that looked Hollywood or exploited. That in itself is a feat and not something I'd expect even from the History Channel.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 avril 2013 - 03:12 .


#53
Das Tentakel

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 Oh, everything is relative, though the costuming seems to be a common complaint from what I've read. Based on clips and stills, I am sometimes okay with it, other times I bash my head against the table. I think I have a reasonable grasp of how it should look like, based on reading, museum visits, having lots of late Roman / Migration Era/ Early medieval reenactor friends and acquaintances etc., and often this stuff looks...odd.
But relatively speaking, it's not too bad. It's no worse than, say, La Commanderie, a French series that takes place during the Hundred Years' War, and which takes similar liberties with the costumes. Doesn't change the fact that La Commanderie is a good series, and gets a fair bit right, particularly the broader historical context.

It does convince me that if you want to do the era between the late Roman Empire and the Renaissance right, you'd probably have to let Scandinavians, Poles or Russians do the costumes. Even in western Europe it's often too variable. Probably has to do with how the props industry works there; it's not as if the information, the experts or the production facilities are unavailable.

As long as we don't get another Pathfinder...:sick:

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#54
Sjpelke

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@Das Tentakel

Keeping track and implementing sages and stories and whatever label is given to what has been delevired verbaly before written down is what this is all about :?.

Excavations from that period of time undermine or acknowledge things which are or are not displayed in games to underline or reject in media for viewing/playing and whatever pleasure.

As far as I know with my limited expertise the vikings have left their mark in a lot of things going on even today (love the christmas tree :D).

A lot of cultures have left their footprints in our globe filling age where we are in right now; everything depends on how ppl (writers) work with information handed/looked up on etc,  and where to go from there.

Sages and legends are a great startingpoint to write stories from right ;)?!

EDIT
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Modifié par TsadeeHekate, 26 avril 2013 - 08:37 .


#55
Addai

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Season finale tonight! Eek.

#56
slimgrin

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I want to see some blades clashing. :P

#57
Das Tentakel

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 Well, have fun guys. History Channel over here still has such fascinating, well-made programmes like 'Pawn stars', 'Storage wars' and 'Ancient Aliens' making up most of their programming. Made in Europe and heavily subidized 'The Vikings' may be, but we're not seeing it over here.Guess that will leave lots of people no way of watching for some time to come... (save the extralegal route, good planning and foresight, History Channel... :crying:)

People who want some clashing swords, here you go (clicky link):

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#58
HoonDing

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I want to shieldmaiden(s) taking heads.

#59
Das Tentakel

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HoonDing wrote...

I want to shieldmaiden(s) taking heads.


Taking heads? Pfft, carving the blood eagle, now that would make for...interesting TV.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_eagle

And it appears there may be a candidate in the form of King Aella of Northumbria.

Fun times, fun times....:o

#60
Addai

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Man, what a depressing episode. I'm going to pretend the season ended last time.

#61
happy_daiz

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Hard to believe that was a season finale. Was a bit disappointing.

#62
Joy Divison

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True dat. Although a minor character, I liked the daughter a lot. Inquisitive yet respectful of tradition. Vulnerable yet brave.

Then again, it's not like the episode before was much happier...

#63
TheRealJayDee

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That was... I'm not really sure. Sure didn't really feel like a season finale. Will watch season 2, without a doubt, but this ending was rather abrupt...

#64
KingJason13

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Wait... what!? Are you seriously telling me that THAT was the season finale!?!? Surely, there's a real finale coming next sunday? lol wow!

#65
Brockololly

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I liked the season finale well enough. It wasn't a super exciting episode, but it did one hell of job with a sense of doom and dread. It sets up a ton of interesting plot lines for next season too. Sad to see the kids die. I figured Siggy would die but I guess she is sticking around.

Not really liking Ragnar now though. Sorry man, but you've got Lagertha back at home and you ditch her for the odd looking runway model princess? Nah. Even if you want more sons, you messed up there Ragnar.

Looking forward to Rollo doing stuff on his own. I'm kind of curious where they'll take Lagertha's story too. And whether or not they skip ahead in time at all or not, considering Ragnar's sons are important historically.

#66
DahliaLynn

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Things sort of fell flat for me this episode.

One example was that I felt the whole "Rollo against his brother" theme was lacking in depth. I never felt any sense of self conflict and his responses became predictable and boring. Throughout the series he is repeatedly approached with the same issue using the same methods. "I don't know you, I know your brother". Had I felt more of an honest brotherly connection between them as opposed to the constant tension, expression of annoyance, lack of fame/renown issues I would have felt the decision to fight with the Earl a more powerful cliff-hanger.

Also, something about Ragnar smirking his way through the series also kind of peeves me (?)

Still would love to see what happens since obviously there will be some backlash and blame for his daughter's death by the gods for his "sin" I expect, (A life for a life?) along with other plot unraveling. Overall I enjoy the series, even though the finale wasn't as exciting as it could have been.

BTW Floki is awesome :D

#67
Beerfish

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DahliaLynn wrote...



Also, something about Ragnar smirking his way through the series also kind of peeves me (?)



I missed the last episode but am sure I'll catch up on it.  I have to say that Ragnar is an expert smirker.  I kind of like it even if it is over done a bit.  It really portrays an "I know something you don't." kind of feeling.

As an aside I had an uncle named Ragnar who was as swedish as can be and one of the best loggers on he west coast of Canada.  :D

#68
Das Tentakel

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 I suspect I will probably join the Clan of the Nitpickers, mainly by virtue of the series being by 'The History Channel' and Hirst constantly doing the 'historical bla bla bla' rap. And I'm somebody who actually likes (from a historical perspective often fairly crappy) Viking movies.

It's mainly because I am suspecting Mr. Hirst's research mainly consists of between 5 minutes and somewhat less than a manhour of reading Wikipedia entries (it took me 1 minute to find out about Aslaug's net dress). That's still more than some do, and does not detract from the quality of the acting or the entertainment value of the show, but Gods, if I read things like this:

'An inspired piece of casting, I have to say, because here’s a real Viking with real Viking roots. Horik sends him as an emissary to another land which is Gotaland, which I think Gotaland is today Sweden or somewhere, I’m not sure, but as you know the countries are not called what they are now. I needed him to go and meet someone there, someone interesting and important, so Borg is one of the few characters that I’ve almost completely invented. He’s my creation.He’s a very interesting character played wonderfully by [Thorbjørn Harr] and to let you into a little secret, I couldn’t think of what to call him. My favorite tennis player of all time is Björn Borg, so I called him Jarl Borg – Jarl is another word for Earl, so he’s Earl Borg.'
(source: nerdrepository.com/features/interviews/interview-creator-michael-hirst-pillages-world-historys-vikings/ )

He is not sure. About Gotaland. Where it is. Because it is, of course, so time-consuming to try Google.
And a new character is named after a famous dude who had a popular brand of underwear named after him, duuuuuh. Viking incursions into France are probably going to be fun, with such characters as Duke Reno (named after Jean Reno) of Corsica, which is 'somewhere near Paris', and his evil henchman and chef de cuisine the Baron Bocuse (named after the famous chef).

Well, time for my happiness pill I guess :pinched:.

Other than that, seems entertaining enough. But I wonder what Hirst is going to do with his dates, because I have a nasty suspicion he's going to introduce Alfred the Great a couple of generations early (at least if you assume it's 793, but that's already rather wonky considering Ragnar's semi-legendary character and the presence of a King Horik)*.

'But also there is going to be a new big, big character who is the King of Wessex. Wessex is a much larger kingdom than Northumbria, with a much more powerful king and also a cleverer king, a king who spent half of his young life at the court of Emperor Charlemagne. He’s a different kettle of fish. The Vikings are coming across someone with real history and real knowledge and tactics. So, Ragnar is going to be up against a very formidable foe in the King of Wessex.'

(source: ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/77282308.html )

If I sound slightly miffed, that's because I do historical reenactment / educational events over here, and there are doubtless going to be questions because of the series. Crappy Hollywood movies aren't a problem (most people know they're 'just movies'), but a series by The History Channel plus 'bla bla bla historical bla bla bla' sounds from Mr. Hirst is something else.
Which means I'll have to watch it anyway so I know what people from the public are referring to when asking questions. :pinched:

* Okay, could be Egbert, but Hirst is, shall we say, a bit cavalier when it comes to names and dates. Ah well...

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 30 avril 2013 - 08:34 .


#69
Captain Obvious

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Watched the Season 2 premiere a couple of minutes ago and I have to say I was quite impressed. Definitely admired the curveball the writers threw in there with Ragnar stopping the violence between Jarl Borg and King Horik because it was unexpected. The Season 1 finale built up the conflict as the main plot-line for Season 2, but it's good to see that the writers went down a different route and caught me off guard. In addition, I thought Rollo was handled quite well in this episode, which I think was sold by the acting of the guy that plays him but also with the dialogue, such as his "stepping out of the shadows" speech that he gave to Ragnar. He fucked up and he realizes it. That's quite harsh. 

 

The best part was the ending, when Ragnar's family leaves him. What sold the scene for me was that Bjorn still loved his father even when he left him. 

 

I'd give this episode a 9/10.



#70
Guest_Dobbysaurus_*

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I don't like that damn Aslaug. I want Lagertha back where she belongs. Ragnar done goofed! 



#71
Billy-the-Squid

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I don't like that damn Aslaug. I want Lagertha back where she belongs. Ragnar done goofed! 

 

Asslaug. With her chin ass :P Hehe



#72
Captain Obvious

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I don't like that damn Aslaug. I want Lagertha back where she belongs. Ragnar done goofed! 

Ragnar grew up in a very flawed time and grew up with all its flaws.



#73
Fishy

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Watched the Season 2 premiere a couple of minutes ago and I have to say I was quite impressed. Definitely admired the curveball the writers threw in there with Ragnar stopping the violence between Jarl Borg and King Horik because it was unexpected. The Season 1 finale built up the conflict as the main plot-line for Season 2, but it's good to see that the writers went down a different route and caught me off guard. In addition, I thought Rollo was handled quite well in this episode, which I think was sold by the acting of the guy that plays him but also with the dialogue, such as his "stepping out of the shadows" speech that he gave to Ragnar. He fucked up and he realizes it. That's quite harsh. 

 

The best part was the ending, when Ragnar's family leaves him. What sold the scene for me was that Bjorn still loved his father even when he left him. 

 

I'd give this episode a 9/10.

 

 

He's so stupid. He choose a skank over his wife and  child. It's clear that brunhilda just wanted to have a child from him and made that happens. She tricked him in some way, but he was also too weak to pull out !!! Seriously.. Ragnar the stupid and the weak !

 

And all this whole speak about how her faher was a hero that slayed a dragon. All talk. I loved it when ragnar wife said to her that his family were just farmer..  Oh my .. You can see who's confident. Different time and crap, but geez. He should have figured it out before even asking his wife about him sharing them. She wayy too much prideful to be just another bite for Ragnar the weak.



#74
Captain Obvious

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Anyone else seen the recent episode? 
 

Seriously, that shield-wall.



#75
TheRealJayDee

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****, season 2 started?!  :o