370 réponses à ce sujet

[Bourne Endeavor]

David7204 wrote...

Your post was directly in response to someone heavily criticizing MEHEM. And your post has several paragraphs complaining about the game endings for not being complete. The insinuation is obvious - 'MEHEM is better because it addresses these issues, which the game fails at.'

And that's just stupid. The monetary value of a story is not proportional to the amount of explanation given. Even if it was, ME 3 should have cost a great deal more than other games, not less, considering it has much more content.

This has never been an issue of money. And making it one is just being vindictive and stupid.

No. That is merely you inferring nonsense. I quoted him on the basis of his argument we should use our imagination and not have everything handed to us, which is also nonsense. My subsequent examples were to demonstrate a point on the poor execution of the 'canon' endings. MEHEM was never mentioned, therefore any assumption on your part is simply that. I will say now, MEHEM addresses closure somewhat better than BioWare did, but it is by no means perfect nor would anyone consider it complete.

Evidently, you do not know the definition sarcasm. It was a mock reference that if I have to use my imagination to figure out BioWare's mess of a plot, then I'm doing their job. Length of content is irrelevant in this context because whether it be Call of Duty or Tomb Raider. Neither requires me to 'headcanon' or "speculate" to get any closure.

Either way, it's irrelevant because it was sarcasm.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 20 avril 2013 - 08:48 .

[Rhayak]

Preferred ending: Synthesis.

Second choice: i'd do Control, followed by Citadel party, and make up something lazy to explain being back in human form.

(just did it: they cloned my body and i uploaded a part of me in his brain. Voilà.)

Modifié par Rhayak, 20 avril 2013 - 08:52 .

[Yestare7]

David7204 wrote...

Having a nice reunion for a Destroy ending would make it completely clear that Destroy is the best ending and completely invalidate Control and Synthesis.

LOL - that's how I used the Citadel DLC in my 2nd playthrough?

and teasing - I thought Synth and control had already been invalidated??:lol:

[David7204]

God, you know, I keep hearing that, again and again and again. Whenever MEHEM comes up, people are sure to mention to me that nobody would ever, ever, consider it perfect. Yet several times I've proposed an ending where the Crucible fires, the Reapers die, there's a nice reunion and a fair amount of content with the crew and Shepard's love interest. No Catalyst, no three choices, no new information. Essentially what MEHEM is, is it not? And the responses I get are always gleefully positive. And when I ask if there's any problems with that scenario or any ways it could be improved, I've never gotten much.

Nobody's arguing that the lack of closure was a good thing, but your clear attitude that you're 'owed' by BioWare is ridiculous. As I said, it's never been an issue of money. We both understand the truth of that, but you have to make it an issue of money since you have no other justification for being 'owed.'

Modifié par David7204, 20 avril 2013 - 08:59 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

David7204 wrote...

No, it isn't a pride thing. I'm sure if they could go back and change things, they would absolutely do things differently. But they can't. DLC is not a magic wand to fix any flaws in the story and make everything perfect.

I never said that it was. You have this habit of putting words in people's mouths. To your subsequent point, they could provide an epilogue for Control and Synthesis depicting what became of everyone, how galactic society adapted to their changes, or in the case of Control, shown Shepard watching over the galaxy. Citadel DLC proves even cheese can be worthwhile if done properly. Those opting for Control or Synthesis have made their choice and an epilogue without Shepard is apart of it. Neither would be any worse than Destroy if they were explained. Granted, even Destroy has issues.

The above could be done, albeit it would require time and likely could not be free. That is among the reasons it wouldn't be done.

[David7204]

I have a habit of using logic to extend the points people make to their conclusions. In this case, your accusation of 'pride' implies they had a grand opportunity to fix things but decided not to take it. Which, as I said, is not the case - DLC is not a magic wand. 

Modifié par David7204, 20 avril 2013 - 09:04 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

David7204 wrote...

God, you know, I keep hearing that, again and again and again. Whenever MEHEM comes up, people are sure to mention to me that nobody would ever, ever, consider it perfect. Yet several times I've proposed an ending where the Crucible fires, the Reapers die, there's a nice reunion and a fair amount of content with the crew and Shepard's love interest. No Catalyst, no three choices, no new information. Essentially what MEHEM is, is it not? And the responses I get are always gleefully positive. And when I ask if there's any problems with that scenario or any ways it could be improved, I've never gotten much.

Nobody's arguing that the lack of closure was a good thing, but your clear attitude that you're 'owed' by BioWare is ridiculous. As I said, it's never been an issue of money. We both understand the truth of that, but you have to make it an issue of money since you have no other justification for being 'owed.'

It is the same flawed argument that supports IT. "Anything is better than what we got." If taken at complete face value, your example would be generic and somewhat boring. But I suspect people presume there would be additional content thrown in between, a possible showdown with Harbinger or whatever else. Ironically, even generic is better than nonsensical. And therein lies the problem. ME3's ending makes very little sense, despite some interesting ideas. I don't hate Control or Synthesis on their premise, so as on their execution.

People consider MEHEM "good" because it managed to address some issues that BioWare has not. They are also forgiving because of its limitations, thus they headcanon the rest.

Okay, you really need to stop doing this. I said nothing of the sort, therefore your assumption is again that. They don't owe anything. I was merely making a jab at them using sarcasm. This is not difficult, mate.

[Galbrant]

Preferred Ending: Refuse/MEHEM
Second Choice: Destroy
Explanation for Second Choice:

I already think the little slimeball is trying to kill me and for the two he prefer requires my death to get the results it wants. I have destroy as my second choice because in the original endings it was my first choice. Despite it being tasteless and practically turns me into a villain instead of the hero which I was striving to be, it was the only choice non indoctrinated characters wanted. Control and Synthesis only received support from indoctrinated characters. Despite it still requires some trust of an crazy illogical A.I. who creations are master of deceit and control that it's not trying to kill you in all three endings, I'll dry hump that tube to kingdom come all day long.

[David7204]

We both know that isn't true. Plenty of endings in both popular and obscure fiction really make very little sense. ME 3 is hardly unique in that regard. And yet those endings are still lauded or at least accepted. Nor does that explain the praise of MEHEM. People don't praise it on the basis of 'Wow, this makes so much narrative sense.' They praise it because they get a happy ending.

The ending of ME 3 could have been tightened up considerably, but as long as Shepard dies no matter what, you can bet dollars to donuts fans would be enraged, regardless of how sensible the ending is. Which is justified. I would feel the same way.

And enough of this nonsense. Yes. You did say it. "[BioWare] couldn't be arsed to do it themselves. Fine, just charge me less for the game then." BioWare charged me more than they should have. I was ripped off. BioWare owes me.

Modifié par David7204, 20 avril 2013 - 09:37 .

[Ieldra]

Yestare7 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

They have never used 'art' as a defense, and it's goddamn annoying to hear that continually repeated.

Where did this come from then?

The "artistic integrity" defense was first used by gaming journalists, not by Bioware. I've only seen Bioware referring to their "artistic vision" one time, and that was when they talked about the EC and trying to keep the core of their artistic vision intact while trying to give players what they wanted. I think the EC is a compromise in that - the dark age is removed and the outcome is shown, but other stuff many people didn't like remained. I think we can all agree that the dark age with a fragmented galactic civilization was the original outcome, the original "vision", and that Bioware compromised it in the EC. I don't think you can fault them for drawing the line somewhere and not create a completely new ending scenario.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 avril 2013 - 09:25 .

[Ryzaki]

David7204 wrote...

We both know that isn't true. Plenty of endings in both popular and obscure fiction really make very little sense. ME 3 is hardly unique in that regard. And yet those endings are still lauded or at least accepted. Nor does that explain the praise of MEHEM. People don't praise is on the basis of 'Wow, this makes much narrative sense.' They praise it because they get a happy ending.

And enough of this nonsense. Yes. You did say it. "[BioWare] couldn't be arsed to do it themselves. Fine, just charge me less for the game then." BioWare charged me more than they should have. I was ripped off. BioWare owes me.

Considering they blatantly lied about their product...

Damn it why did they delete that thread with all their pre release BS...

[David7204]

They did say some very foolish things. But again, it's never been an issue of money.

[CaIIisto]

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
Source?[/quote]

Xbox.com - DLC sales by lifetime.

[quote]
You're wrong. "Do you like this, yes or no" posed to thousands of people is a survey, whether you want it to be or not. And YT may not be perfectly representative of the total fanbase, but it actually comes closer to doing so than a forum specifically designed for bellyachers to come and air their grievances. At the very least, more people have voted on the videos than have voted in every poll held here.[/QUOTE]

I'm afraid you're using toddler logic here. You do see that right? I can very easily watch a video on YT and press 'like' because I liked that video. It has no bearing on, or is not reflective of, whether or not I prefer it to another video over here. There's no either or, which you need for any statement of preference. This really isn't rocket science.

As for the last assertion, again completely wrong. What was the top amount of likes/dislikes? 3.5k? Nowhere near the 10k that took part in the last big survey.


[quote]
You're still missing the point. That 90% is still 3000+ people attracted to Synthesis, far more than have shown up any BSN poll. When are you going to simply admit that those people aren't on the Bioware forums, and that therefore any poll that comes out of BSN is missing key respondents?[/quote]

Oh right. All these Synthesizers just happen to avoid BSN. How convenient. 1,500 voted for Synthesis in the last survey. 1,500 out of 10,000 respondents. That's a somewhat better response than 3,000 from >600k viewers. I mean, if you want to go purely off of YT stats then we may as well conclude that the >600k viewers who didn't bother rating the video either way simply didn't care. When we apply that same logic to the other endings then it's quite clear that the overwhelming majority of viewers couldn't care less about the ending at all, no matter what was picked. 

[quote]So you specifically pick a poor-quality video and correctly point out that it has more dislikes due to that fact, then use it to prove...what exactly?[/quote]

No, I picked the TOP destroy-related video. Something you said you'd done, but didn't. And based on the comments from that video it's quite clear that liking/disliking is based on more than whether or not a viewer buys into the message of that video.

[quote]None of that applies to the videos I selected, so it's irrelevant.[/quote]

Far from irrelevant, you still can't explain the rationale behind 'likes' or 'dislikes'. Again, I could watch a video and press 'like', it doesn't mean that I prefer it to another video over here though.

[quote]
And BSN polls aren't?[/quote]

And again, the last survey wasn't purely BSN. BSN, Twitter, Facebook, gaming sites, etc, etc. YT has inherant failings. You have to be coming from a real position of weakness to have to try and rely on that to support conclusions that are borne out nowhere else.

[quote][The point of my exercise was not to show that "Synthesis is clearly the most popular ending and you guys are dumb if you disagree." The point was to show that "BSN polls are unreliable, so stop claiming "all the fans" or "the majority of fans" are in favor of or opposed to any one of the endings based on a poll from this site."[/quote]

That may have been the point you were trying to make, but you've holed your own argument by trying to use something with such inherant problems as a YT distribution. 

BSN polls have largely followed the same pattern as polls run on other gaming websites, they also follow the same pattern amongst gamers that I know that have completed the game. If you have a survey with a sample of c10,000 then yes, I'm going to take that seriously. Especially when it asks pointed questions. Trying to discredit that because it it also cut across BSN, and then try to counter it by using YT distributions isn't really much of a response at all.

[quote]Besides which, I disagree. YT likes and dislikes are valuable because you are the ones claiming that Destroy is the most popular ending and that "everyone" hates Synthesis. Clearly you are off by over 3000 - if BSN is a representative sample, where are those people? Care to explain?[/quote]

No one claimed that EVERYONE hated Synthesis - the assertion is that Synthesis is not as popular as Destroy, and likely Control. Control is debatable, Destroy is not. A10,000 sample is superior to anything that you've quoted from YT yet, and at the end of the day, it's a 10,000 sample from a well-conducted survey, not YT. 

[quote]
By representative polls.

If you poll the RNC and ask who should be president, and you get the Republican candidate in a landslide, that is meaningless information.[/QUOTE]

This is a great example. It's a great example of why you shouldn't use YT. You've put up a video and then you ask if people 'like' it or not. You are not asking whether they prefer it to another video. Fantastic analogy, well done. 

[quote]
Interesting - link? Who conducted this survey and where were the results published?[/QUOTE]

Link

[quote]
Did you read MCB's thread by any chance? Or this one?
[/quote]

The attitude reflective in this thread is no different to that in threads on other websites - it's not really surprising that space magic isn't particularly well thought of. It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why destroy is more popular than synthesis. 

Modifié par Bester76, 20 avril 2013 - 09:52 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

David7204 wrote...

We both know that isn't true. Plenty of endings in both popular and obscure fiction really make very little sense. ME 3 is hardly unique in that regard. And yet those endings are still lauded or at least accepted. Nor does that explain the praise of MEHEM. People don't praise it on the basis of 'Wow, this makes so much narrative sense.' They praise it because they get a happy ending.

The ending of ME 3 could have been tightened up considerably, but as long as Shepard dies no matter what, you can bet dollars to donuts fans would be enraged, regardless of how sensible the ending is. Which is justified. I would feel the same way.

And enough of this nonsense. Yes. You did say it. "[BioWare] couldn't be arsed to do it themselves. Fine, just charge me less for the game then." BioWare charged me more than they should have. I was ripped off. BioWare owes me.

Sigh.

I never said ME3 was unique in this failed endeavor, although I would cite it among the worst, at least in the past decade or so. Some do accept poor writing easier than others, especially if there is alternative narrative to hang their hats on - and yes, a happy ending can be among them. Frankly, what does this have to do with anything? MEHEM was never thought to be some great accolade in writing accomplishment, nor have I suggested it was. My initial post criticized the writing of the original endings. That's it.

Some would, but the controversy would never have risen to the extent it did. Many fantastic stories see the protagonist die. In fact, BioShock is quite fond of that story angle. No one complained. Nevertheless, one could argue Mass Effect has be a game of choice and by excluding a "happy ending" in the same venture as ME1 or ME2 is an absence of said choice. Personally, I would be fine with Shepard dead if it made sense.

How many times need I repeat myself? Welcome to sarcasm. I never made any mention of being owed a thing. That is your blatantly inaccurate assumption - a hill you apparently wish to die on. So whatever, believe whatever you want.

[CaIIisto]

Ieldra2 wrote...
If you look at data with some claim to being at least somewhat representative, you'll always get similar results: Destroy about 40%, Synthesis, Control and Refuse about 20% each. This hasn't changed since the EC came out. I wish Bioware would publish the results, then we could stop these silly arguments.

Agree. 

Don't really see why they can't publish those results now, it's been over 12 months FFS. Seriously what difference do they think it would add at this point?

[SpamBot2000]

David7204 wrote...

They have never used 'art' as a defense, and it's goddamn annoying to hear that continually repeated.

Oh, they have, and it's goddamn annoying to hear some BioLawyer who said they haven't continuosly quoted. Ray Muzyka's Open Letter, google it and apply basic reading comprehension.

"I believe passionately that games are an art form, and that the power of our medium flows from our audience, who are deeply involved in how the story unfolds, and who have the uncontested right to provide constructive criticism. At the same time, I also believe in and support the artistic choices made by the development team.  The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game."

So yeah, games are Art, team made Artistic choices, comments "addressed" in a manner that maintains Artistic Integrity. 

That means "can't change stuff because Artistic Integrity of Art".

Unbelievable how that's so routinely denied by some.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 20 avril 2013 - 11:50 .

[TheRealJayDee]

David7204 wrote...

No. They couldn't. These things are a lot more complicated than you seem to realize. Having a nice reunion for a Destroy ending would make it completely clear that Destroy is the best ending and completely invalidate Control and Synthesis.

This I never understood. If Control and Synthesis are options with a lot of merit and people choose them because they believe they are the best way to go - just how could a High EMS Destroy ending with a reuinon scene invalidate them?

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

David7204 wrote...

We both know that isn't true. Plenty of endings in both popular and obscure fiction really make very little sense. ME 3 is hardly unique in that regard. And yet those endings are still lauded or at least accepted. Nor does that explain the praise of MEHEM. People don't praise is on the basis of 'Wow, this makes much narrative sense.' They praise it because they get a happy ending.

And enough of this nonsense. Yes. You did say it. "[BioWare] couldn't be arsed to do it themselves. Fine, just charge me less for the game then." BioWare charged me more than they should have. I was ripped off. BioWare owes me.

Considering they blatantly lied about their product...

Damn it why did they delete that thread with all their pre release BS...

The vast majority of that pre-release BS, was BS exagerated by the fans or vague statements either taken out of context or outright head-canoned into something else. Given how exagerated the outrage was over the actual lies, and the blatant double standards over the pre-release hype for the previous games, that thread was just a self-fed victimization complex on steroids.

[crimzontearz]

Destroy or simply not playing the game

[dreamgazer]

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Yeah, measuring an ending's popularity on YouTube thumbs of approval is pretty pointless.

How many people upvoted any of the ending videos (especially synthesis) so they didn't have to see it in-game? How many people upvoted it merely because the quality was decent? Plenty of factors.

So all 3000+ hate Synthesis but upvoted it? Seems legit.

Who said anything about all, or "hate"? Let's not reduce your assertion with extremes. 

It is, however, still pointless due to a cluster of unobservable and untracked variables, which negate this as any form of quality/appreciation barometer of the actual content being recorded and watched.

[Ieldra]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No. They couldn't. These things are a lot more complicated than you seem to realize. Having a nice reunion for a Destroy ending would make it completely clear that Destroy is the best ending and completely invalidate Control and Synthesis.

This I never understood. If Control and Synthesis are options with a lot of merit and people choose them because they believe they are the best way to go - just how could a High EMS Destroy ending with a reuinon scene invalidate them?

Not invalidate, no, but the fact that Control and Synthesis have less narrative support than Destroy in the story that came before combined with the narrative impact of a re-union scene would've been taken as an indication that this is the canon ending. Which the ME team wanted to avoid.

As I see it, the balance of the ending scenario was originally supposed to be like this: Synthesis gives the best big-picture result while Shepard is dead, Destroy lets Shepard survive while having a lesser big-picture result, and Control is somewhere in-between. Unfortunately, the story that came before supports Destroy more than the other endings, so instead of the intended balance, things came across to many players as "dead Reapers = best outcome, regardless of everything else". Which means that Synthesis and Control have an added downside in Shepard's death/death-as-a-human without anything to balance it. Adding a re-union scene would put weight on an already-existing imbalance, which could've only been rebalanced by rewriting parts of the main plot in order to give Synthesis and Control better narrative support, and that can't be done in DLC. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 avril 2013 - 01:15 .

[Wayning_Star]

Synthesis is the bioware canon ending, why remove it to cater to their frustration with fans?

but then there's the star gazer, who lets all 'off the hook' so.. be happy?

[dreamgazer]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis is the bioware canon ending, why remove it to cater to their frustration with fans?

[citation needed]

Modifié par dreamgazer, 20 avril 2013 - 01:39 .

[Argolas]

dreamgazer wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis is the bioware canon ending, why remove it to cater to their frustration with fans?

[citation needed]

 I believe the main source of that myth is this, although Jessica Merizan already cleared that up (last post).

[Chashan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As I see it, the balance of the ending scenario was originally supposed to be like this: Synthesis gives the best big-picture result while Shepard is dead, Destroy lets Shepard survive while having a lesser big-picture result, and Control is somewhere in-between. Unfortunately, the story that came before supports Destroy more than the other endings, so instead of the intended balance, things came across to many players as "dead Reapers = best outcome, regardless of everything else". Which means that Synthesis and Control have an added downside in Shepard's death/death-as-a-human without anything to balance it. Adding a re-union scene would put weight on an already-existing imbalance, which could've only been rebalanced by rewriting parts of the main plot in order to give Synthesis and Control better narrative support, and that can't be done in DLC. 

I'll just have to refute the concept of structuring a narrative based on as feeble a construction as 'balanced choices', as it sounds a tad too much as though one wishes to adhere to a more spread-out looking graph of a poll, survey or whatever kind of statistic. The different finales appeal to different people with differing views even as they are.

It did not take BW much to go there, as things stand - admirably demonstrated by fans - and is a definite failing on their end. Along with other issues with this entire 'balance'-idea, which I find silly, to say the least.
Even as is, Green and Blue still provide reasonable enough strong points in their favour if you have to dissect based on raw pro and con.

Modifié par Chashan, 20 avril 2013 - 01:52 .