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Your Favorite Ending is Removed


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#201
MassivelyEffective0730

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Optimystic_X wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

And seriously if we're getting into Disney then we need look no further than Synthesis - everyone lives happily ever in peace and harmony thanks to space magic. Yippee.


Then why do you people hate it? Do you want a happy ending or not? Is Bioware Disney or grimdark?

Bipolar much?


You're being disingenuous with your dichotomy.

I can have a happy ending without it being a "Disney Ending"

That's what I'm trying to do with my own writing for the ending right now.

It eliminates the Organic vs. Synthetic issue and creates a narrative and explanation for the Reapers that I see as far more in line with the story of the series while also maintaining themes that I personally saw.

#202
PsyrenY

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Indy_S wrote...

You appear to have a very limited view on the motivations behind MEHEM.


I watched it; that's literally what it does. No choice, no Catalyst, no deeper meaning behind the Reaper cycles. Just push button, Reapers die. Am I wrong? Please provide a deeplink if you have a counterargument.

#203
PsyrenY

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

You're being disingenuous with your dichotomy.

I can have a happy ending without it being a "Disney Ending"


I was being sarcastic. None of the endings are "Disney," not even MEHEM.

And no, Synthesis isn't Disney either. There will still be challenges, even for those too limited in imagination to conceive of what they might be.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 19 avril 2013 - 09:44 .


#204
MassivelyEffective0730

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Optimystic_X wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

You're being disingenuous with your dichotomy.

I can have a happy ending without it being a "Disney Ending"


I was being sarcastic. None of the endings are "Disney," not even MEHEM.

And no, Synthesis isn't Disney either. There will still be challenges, even for those too limited in imagination to conceive of what they might be.


In my opinion, there are more cons than pros to choosing Synthesis. I can't even think of a pro for choosing it. I admit that that is my own subjective opinion.

Here's something I always give in arguments on Synthesis:

I don't believe that condemning the galaxy to an ultimate existence of being perpetually under the Reapers thumb in control is a desirable thing, especially with an AI involved that could eventually lose compassion or care for those it "protects". I can't believe in Control in being anything as a police state, and I certainly don't believe in the Reapers to maintain that peace or the Shepalyst's long term integrity. I also fundamentally disagree with the logic and motive of the current Catalyst. I'd be controlling for the wrong reason. And yes, I would rather destroy the Reapers than control them.

Why Synthesis is bad:

How it's presented:
 You ascend a beam into a room openly exposed to vacuum and meet a strange glowing child who is the creator of the machines that are hellbent on annihilating galactic civilization every 50,000 years. He doesn't say much at all, yet you are inexplicably compelled to listen to him and accept his idea's that the cycle, or one of it's presented equivalents are necessary so that you can solve a minor plot theme that was already solved 4 main missions ago, and that a choice that requires your death will somehow alter the fabric of all existing life to make the cycle irrelevant because life has been fundamentally changed forever.

The lore, or 'science' (and lack of it I mean) behind it: "Essence of who you are"? Sounds like vitalism, a theme of mysticism, which is basically superstitious belief in inanimate objects. "New DNA"? How does that even work? Most aliens have a different form of DNA from humans. All synthetics don't even have DNA. How does a big, green energy wave cause everyone, every living thing for that matter, to become a cyborg? How is this carried out across space and time in the galaxy? How can it be the final evolution of all life? Isn't that non-sensical since evolution is not equated to perfection but to mutation and adaptation to changing environments?

Who the presenter of it is: The Reapers, the main enemy throughout the entire trilogy who have been consistently shown to be ired by the mere existence of other beings to the point they feel the need to annihilate them, and how they are known to control and manipulate other beings through indoctrination. Why should I start listening to them (especially their creator) now? Haven't they always tried to kill me or manipulate me into doing their bidding before?(protip: using the antagonist as the mouthpiece to present all the final ending options is a narrative no-no). Even if the Catalyst believes in it's own mission and logic, I don't. I see it as an AI tasked to solve an impossible problem (the nature of the problem is logically at fault) stipulated on faulty logic written by an organic (thus faulty being) and given the ordered logic to enforce its cycle without empathy or remorse. I'm fundamentally opposed to the Catalyst on these grounds.

Why it's being presented: The belief that order vs chaos, or organics and synthetics will fundamentally destroy each other in every circumstance, which I don't believe in. Synthesis may well be possible in the future, but if it's going to be induced, it needs to be for more than a reason to end an infinite cycle of destruction that was started to prevent another infinite cycle of destruction. More like a desire to experience and be more than just a human. The baseline concepts to it is pretty much in line with transhumanism. Transhumanism is a real thing, and it's actually where the technological evolution that we've created and are overseeing today will eventually take us.

What the implications of it are: Shepard's non-sensical and contrived death, forcing it on a galaxy without knowledge or consent, how it somehow gives synthetics understanding to an organic. The implications to Synthesis shouldn't be any of these. They should be a voluntary upgrade if you will, and as an outcome of the evolution of technology via the increasing capabilities of all species. And it really only needs to apply to organics. Ieldra said earlier that the implication of it is also to raise the level of organics to a level of comparison to synthetics so that they aren't left in the dust and thus destroyed in a future conflict. Yet that's not how synthesis is explained. It's explained to be the final evolution of all life everywhere and that everything is somehow better through uniformity. Organics and synthetics will no longer kill each other, for reasons that are not elaborated upon by the developers.

The sheer lack of understanding of the concept on the part of the developers: "But there's no more distinction to life anymore. It's all just life!" - Michael Gamble, everyone. 

Plus the sheer lack of information that BW has released on it. It's eminently clear to me that the writers behind Synthesis really had no idea what they were going for, besides trying to assuage Casey Hudson's ego and trying to create an idea that was "deep" and "out there". If they had even half the base knowledge of the actual concept, then it would have been carried out in a way similar to the science that Ieldra has come up with. I still wouldn't pick it since I don't agree with it (presentation by the Reapers bit), but I wouldn't be constantly deriding it as complete bull**** or space magic.


So yeah. Destroy is good, minus forced Geth death and relay destruction. And I will admit: I want a happy ending for Shepard. That is a factor into why I choose Destroy.
Morally opposed to Control.
Morally, logically, and physically repulsed by Synthesis.
Refuse is ideal of the situations presented, but alas, I cannot do it knowing that it is futile as presented.

The whole ending concept itself is just plain bad in my opinion. Inconsistent narrative, faulty logic, terrible execution, and it just plain insults my intelligence.

Edit for you:

Saying that people don't have balls or imagination for not choosing synthesis or control is not correct. 

I have both, but I can't see any justification for the cycle or the Reapers. There's no meaning to their existence minus destruction. I don't believe in the preservation nature of the Reapers. The Catalyst and I have two very different idea's of preservation. I don't see anything in the Reapers worth preserving.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 avril 2013 - 10:08 .


#205
Indy_S

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Optimystic_X wrote...

I watched it; that's literally what it does. No choice, no Catalyst, no deeper meaning behind the Reaper cycles. Just push button, Reapers die. Am I wrong? Please provide a deeplink if you have a counterargument.

I'm afraid no deeplink is forthcoming.

You've referred to what MEHEM does but not why it does it. It removes the Catalyst because the modders believe that its existence undermines the narrative. It removes the choices because the modders believe that the presented options defy the themes present throughout the prior story. It removes the explanation behind the Reapers because the modders believe that the Lovecraftian nature of them was a more potent adversary.

But you didn't see that. You saw someone push a button and the Reapers died. What you saw is true but you lacked perspective. I hope I could provide an alternate one.

#206
Dieb

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I. Destroy
II. Refuse

Roleplaying reasons. One essay about my Shepard's character later, he would do either one, in that order. And yes, I did roleplay even that one. It does feel like cheating sometimes.

P.S.: If Anderson is wrong, I don't want to be right.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 19 avril 2013 - 10:00 .


#207
CaIIisto

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Optimystic_X wrote...
...According to the polls here, when this website is the hub of dissatisfaction with the series. But elsewhere I see different statistics. If your claim was correct, Youtube videos of Synthesis and Control would be widely disliked. At a minimum I would expect a 50/50 ration. Instead, the like-dislike ratio is at considerable odds with the belief that "a majority of fans are unhappy."


Flawed point - you're assuming that those opposed to Synthesis are going to actively seek out Synthesis videos to 'dislike' them. In reality they're not going to do that. A poll here, and a Youtube video there, are vastly different in terms of audience capture.

The true majority of fans - the ones that played the game, enjoyed it, bought the DLC and didn't even bother registering a forum username -  we won't ever hear from them. But the ones that were pissed off and took to the most logical place to complain - namely, here - go on to poll each other and conclude that everyone who plays the game must be as mad as they are. Look at the results of this BSN poll! Numbers don't lie!


Actually, the last stat I saw said that over half of people who played ME3 didn't finish it. Perhaps they just enjoyed it that much that they couldn't bear the thought of finishing it and it being over? In terms of the DLC, the majority of people who bought the game did NOT buy the DLC, the assertion to the contrary is just plain wrong.

#208
ElSuperGecko

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1st choice: Destroy
2nd choice: Destroy
3rd choice: Delete all updates, play game as shipped and choose Destroy

Reasoning? Simple. Every other choice is a betrayal of everyone and everything we've fought for over the previous three games.

#209
Dieb

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

1st choice: Destroy
2nd choice: Destroy
3rd choice: Delete all updates, play game as shipped and choose Destroy

Reasoning? Simple. Every other choice is a betrayal of everyone and everything we've fought for over the previous three games.


Okay, I just have to ask: Why the signature then? Or am I just over-Merrill-ing this one?

#210
MassivelyEffective0730

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Baelrahn wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

1st choice: Destroy
2nd choice: Destroy
3rd choice: Delete all updates, play game as shipped and choose Destroy

Reasoning? Simple. Every other choice is a betrayal of everyone and everything we've fought for over the previous three games.


Okay, I just have to ask: Why the signature then? Or am I just over-Merrill-ing this one?


Look at what's happening:

It's the vision from Eden Prime/Virmire. The vision of the Prothean annihilation. He's saying Synthesis is that.

In universe, without meta-gaming, that's what Shepard believes would've happened if the Reapers' version of synthesis was ever induced. It might be beautiful and fulfilling to the Catalyst, but what he deems acceptable I deem repulsive.

That's another thing. It's a matter of perspective. The catalyst has a completely different nature, a different outlook and perspective than any organic. What is appealing to me is non-solution for it. Its perfect solution for its problem is unacceptable and downright terrifying to me.

#211
Eckswhyzed

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Bester76 wrote...

Actually, the last stat I saw said that over half of people who played ME3 didn't finish it. Perhaps they just enjoyed it that much that they couldn't bear the thought of finishing it and it being over? In terms of the DLC, the majority of people who bought the game did NOT buy the DLC, the assertion to the contrary is just plain wrong.


Well then have I got some shocking news for you - many great video games go unfinished.

Sure, 42% finished ME3 compared to Mass Effect 2's 56%. But then again, only 40% finished ME1 and 36% finished DA:Origins.

Industry average? 25%.

Source.

#212
ElSuperGecko

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Look at what's happening:

It's the vision from Eden Prime/Virmire. The vision of the Prothean annihilation. He's saying Synthesis is that.


I like this human.  He understands.

After three games of witnessing the Catalyst's original "solution" in all of it's horrific and repulsive glory, I simply cannot accept that it's new "solution" will lead to anything other than a fresh abomination.  In this, the Prothean beacon warning in ME1 is not just a revelation of the Prothean's fate, but potentially a prophesy of what may come.

The Catalyst simply doesn't understand organic life; it has no comprehension of what drives us, motivates us and absolutely no concept of emotion.  Without that understanding, any "solution" it devises is fatally flawed and can only lead to disaster.

Pull the trigger, shoot the tube.  It's the only way to be sure.

#213
Argolas

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Look at what's happening:

It's the vision from Eden Prime/Virmire. The vision of the Prothean annihilation. He's saying Synthesis is that.


I like this human.  He understands.

After three games of witnessing the Catalyst's original "solution" in all of it's horrific and repulsive glory, I simply cannot accept that it's new "solution" will lead to anything other than a fresh abomination.  In this, the Prothean beacon warning in ME1 is not just a revelation of the Prothean's fate, but potentially a prophesy of what may come.

The Catalyst simply doesn't understand organic life; it has no comprehension of what drives us, motivates us and absolutely no concept of emotion.  Without that understanding, any "solution" it devises is fatally flawed and can only lead to disaster.

Pull the trigger, shoot the tube.  It's the only way to be sure.


I like you.

Even in the very end, the Intelligence still defends the reapers, claimin it hadn't wiped out any race. This is the ultimate proof that it still hasn't understood organic life at all. It believes that a giant ship filled with ancient DNA samples is the same as a living, breathing civilization of organic life.

I won't trust any "solution" such a thing has to offer.

EDIT: @Topic: If I can't destroy, I refuse. Then I do what I can to take as many reapers down as I can, also set plans in motion. Time capsules that contain anti-Reaper tech such as EDI's algorithms, the Thanix technology and vigil's anti-Citadel-relay file will be preserved together with any information I have about the reapers and the catalyst, also of course warnings about the invasion, the Intelligence and its "solution". After that, I attempt to do the same as the Protheans did: Try to survive in Cryo, and when I wake up and the Reapers are gone, start preparing for the next invasion myself.

Modifié par Argolas, 19 avril 2013 - 10:53 .


#214
IntelligentME3Fanboy

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Eckswhyzed wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

Actually, the last stat I saw said that over half of people who played ME3 didn't finish it. Perhaps they just enjoyed it that much that they couldn't bear the thought of finishing it and it being over? In terms of the DLC, the majority of people who bought the game did NOT buy the DLC, the assertion to the contrary is just plain wrong.


Well then have I got some shocking news for you - many great video games go unfinished.

Sure, 42% finished ME3 compared to Mass Effect 2's 56%. But then again, only 40% finished ME1 and 36% finished DA:Origins.

Industry average? 25%.

Source.

They didn't finish it because they didn't like it.Simple.

#215
Dieb

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

After three games of witnessing the Catalyst's original "solution" in all of it's horrific and repulsive glory, I simply cannot accept that it's new "solution" will lead to anything other than a fresh abomination.  In this, the Prothean beacon warning in ME1 is not just a revelation of the Prothean's fate, but potentially a prophesy of what may come.

The Catalyst simply doesn't understand organic life; it has no comprehension of what drives us, motivates us and absolutely no concept of emotion.  Without that understanding, any "solution" it devises is fatally flawed and can only lead to disaster.

Pull the trigger, shoot the tube.  It's the only way to be sure.


So, I may have been too ignorant to understand your signature, but actually I always thought about it the same way. The highlighted part is basically my exact take on the matter.

#216
Eckswhyzed

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IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

Actually, the last stat I saw said that over half of people who played ME3 didn't finish it. Perhaps they just enjoyed it that much that they couldn't bear the thought of finishing it and it being over? In terms of the DLC, the majority of people who bought the game did NOT buy the DLC, the assertion to the contrary is just plain wrong.


Well then have I got some shocking news for you - many great video games go unfinished.

Sure, 42% finished ME3 compared to Mass Effect 2's 56%. But then again, only 40% finished ME1 and 36% finished DA:Origins.

Industry average? 25%.

Source.

They didn't finish it because they didn't like it.Simple.


I'm just arguing against using finishing percentages an authoritative measure of a fanbase's consensus.

#217
PsyrenY

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

In my opinion, there are more cons than pros to choosing Synthesis. I can't even think of a pro for choosing it. I admit that that is my own subjective opinion.


There are a ton of pros. EDI tells you several in the epilogue, and there are several slides unique to Synthesis that none of the other endings get (such as Kasumi and Keiji being reunited.)

If you want more, as well as a much more detailed discussion on the subject, can be found in Ieldra2's thread (linked in my sig.)

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I don't believe that condemning the galaxy to an ultimate existence of being perpetually under the Reapers thumb in control is a desirable thing, especially with an AI involved that could eventually lose compassion or care for those it "protects".


I agree, and this is why I chose Synthesis over Control.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Why Synthesis is bad:

How it's presented:
 You ascend a beam into a room openly exposed to vacuum and meet a strange glowing child who is the creator of the machines that are hellbent on annihilating galactic civilization every 50,000 years. He doesn't say much at all, yet you are inexplicably compelled to listen to him and accept his idea's that the cycle, or one of it's presented equivalents are necessary so that you can solve a minor plot theme that was already solved 4 main missions ago, and that a choice that requires your death will somehow alter the fabric of all existing life to make the cycle irrelevant because life has been fundamentally changed forever.


You're wrong in several places here. First, the theme has been around since ME1, not "4 missions ago." Second, you didn't actually resolve it - Tali comments on how conflict can arise with the Geth in the future once the Reapers are dealt with if you talk with her post-Rannoch. She even points out that the Geth may not want to cooperate with everyone, i.e. uploading into Han'Gerrel's suit since he was pushing for the war, or that there might be disagreements over which party decides what modifications need to be made. She mentions these conflicts are better than the ones that existed before, and that the greater threat of the Reapers will still take precedence, but conflict is conflict and anything sufficiently negative can spiral out of control.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
The lore, or 'science' (and lack of it I mean) behind it: "Essence of who you are"? Sounds like vitalism, a theme of mysticism, which is basically superstitious belief in inanimate objects. "New DNA"? How does that even work? Most aliens have a different form of DNA from humans. All synthetics don't even have DNA. How does a big, green energy wave cause everyone, every living thing for that matter, to become a cyborg? How is this carried out across space and time in the galaxy? How can it be the final evolution of all life? Isn't that non-sensical since evolution is not equated to perfection but to mutation and adaptation to changing environments?


"DNA" is a figure of speech used by the Catalyst, which is why he pauses before saying it. He's trying to find a term that can illustrate to the monkey before him the gist of what he's getting at. It's not perfect but it conveys the meaning he wants it to - a fundamental framework.

"Final evolution" means we will no longer be dependent on slow, unconscious responses to change ourselves. Evolution is gradual and uncontrollable change in response to external stimuli. Synthetics can change, but they aren't subject to evolution as we understand it - instead, they adapt instantly and can choose how they modify themselves. This is the ability that we will (hopefully) gain.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Who the presenter of it is: The Reapers, the main enemy throughout the entire trilogy who have been consistently shown to be irked by the mere existence of other beings to the point they feel the need to annihilate them, and how they are known to control and manipulate other beings through indoctrination. Why should I start listening to them (especially their creator) now?


Because he saved your life. Because you installed the one device that finally opened him to new possibilities. Because you have no idea how to activate the Crucible and your friends are dying. Because he's right about synthetics and organics having trouble down the road, whatever temporary alliance you've managed to broker now. Pick one.

Hating a message simply because of where it came from is illogical.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Why it's being presented: The belief that order vs chaos, or organics and synthetics will fundamentally destroy each other in every circumstance, which I don't believe in.


This is a big issue (as well it should be) so we should probably start a different thread to discuss it.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
What the implications of it are: Shepard's non-sensical and contrived death, forcing it on a galaxy without knowledge or consent, how it somehow gives synthetics understanding to an organic.


All the endings do the first two.
For the last, it's simple nanotechnology, and a use that it's already being put to by the Salarians - just refined. Why's it so hard to swallow?

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Plus the sheer lack of information that BW has released on it.


The idea is for that ending to be an open book. Chapter 1. EDI defined it as much as it needs to be - the rest is going to be speculation because we are nowhere near a singularity and therefore can't conceive of what we may come up with if we get there.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Saying that people don't have balls or imagination for not choosing synthesis or control is not correct.


The "balls" comment was aimed only at Refusers actually. Anyone who actually uses the Crucible, even to Destroy, I view more highly than those who do not.

Lack of imagination though I do level squarely at you, and you have demonstrated it pretty plainly above by claiming not to see a single pro to synthesis. Really, not one? That can only be explained with lack of imagination, as I have provided several.

#218
PsyrenY

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Bester76 wrote...

Flawed point - you're assuming that those opposed to Synthesis are going to actively seek out Synthesis videos to 'dislike' them. In reality they're not going to do that. A poll here, and a Youtube video there, are vastly different in terms of audience capture.


It's no more flawed than you assuming that everyone who likes the game is going to actively sign up for the forums to talk about how much they like it.

But even if you're right and only Synthesis fanboys like myself are on Youtube, there's still far more views - and even likes - under Synthesis videos than the total participants of any poll here on the forums.

Bester76 wrote...
Actually, the last stat I saw said that over half of people who played ME3 didn't finish it.


Flawed point - how many people finish other games? Without that data, we can't say what the 40% for ME3 means, as brought up by another user.

Your data is meaningless.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 19 avril 2013 - 11:15 .


#219
Iucounou

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Optimystic_X wrote...

Yestare7 wrote...

Synthesis was hilariously bad but I won't rail against the right for it to exist.


It's also not fanfiction. Problem? -_-


What! Are you implying that Mac and Cheese...sorry... Mac and Casey, aren't fans of the franchise?

You could even argue that the entire EC is fanfiction because it was written purely in response to the fans' reaction to the original endings. Fiction for the fans = fan fiction.

Just because someone gets paid to write stuff doesn't mean they can't screw up. Likewise, because someone doesn't get paid and writes something doesn't mean it can't be good.

Have fun with your snobbishness.

#220
Ieldra

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Optimystic_X wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

Flawed point - you're assuming that those opposed to Synthesis are going to actively seek out Synthesis videos to 'dislike' them. In reality they're not going to do that. A poll here, and a Youtube video there, are vastly different in terms of audience capture.


It's no more flawed than you assuming that everyone who likes the game is going to actively sign up for the forums to talk about how much they like it.

But even if you're right and only Synthesis fanboys like myself are on Youtube, there's still far more views - and even likes - under Synthesis videos than the total participants of any poll here on the forums.

Bester76 wrote...
Actually, the last stat I saw said that over half of people who played ME3 didn't finish it.


Flawed point - how many people finish other games? Without that data, we can't say what the 40% for ME3 means, as brought up by another user.

Your data is meaningless.

Actually, 40% appears to be an above-average percentage. So much for that argument :lol:

#221
PsyrenY

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Iucounou wrote...

What! Are you implying that Mac and Cheese...sorry... Mac and Casey, aren't fans of the franchise?


That's not how definitions work.

Iucounou wrote...
Have fun with your snobbishness.


Thanks, I will. :innocent:

Ieldra2 wrote...

Actually, 40% appears to be an above-average percentage. So much for that argument :lol:


HAI IELDRA :D

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 19 avril 2013 - 11:24 .


#222
M Hedonist

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Aren't game developers always making games for their fans? At least unless they're trying to appeal to a new, hypothetical target group. I guess it's all fan fiction. Anyway, here's some fan service:

Image IPB

You're welcome.

#223
Indy_S

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Sauruz wrote...

Anyway, here's some fan service:

*snip*

You're welcome.

Is it still under warranty or do I have to pay for it?

#224
MassStorm

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If Destroy is removed as ending then BW can say goodbye to my money for future games.

#225
Hey

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 Image IPB