120 réponses à ce sujet

[arial]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Having Avina as the ultimate antagonist of the series would be ridiculous.

The way I see it Avina would have made a nice data dump as to what the Crucible can do. She could still be just a VI and in no way tied to the Reapers. 

Avina is not part of the Ciatdel, she is just a greeting program the Asari sinatlled to help visitors, she can not think or is self aware, she can only relay info that she has been programmed to say.

The Crucible was designed millions of years ago before Avina was created by the Asari, before the Asari even made space travel.,

do you think the Original designers said "hmm... this is going to have to interface with something... I bet you millions of years down the line, someone will finish this project, lets make an isolated program that has nor pressence other then a terminal at a few key locations, that we are not even sure will ever be created the interface!"

[David7204]

knightnblu wrote...

I'd frankly have him absent. The Citadel opens, the Crucible docks and presto! Climax over. You get a cool cut scene based on your choices & EMS and roll credits. Would have been so much better.

That would have sucked.

[k.lalh]

Perhaps people don't like him because he's not likeable as a villain. For example, Boba Fett is a villain...yet people like him, because they see him as a bada**

The catalyst has few redeeming qualities...so people don't like him.

Same reason some like TIM, but most hate Leng.

[kalasaurus]

To the OP, Saren wouldn't work for the same reason why the Virmire Sacrifice or a deceased squad mate from the Suicide Mission wouldn't- new players would have no idea who he is or have any real reaction to it. Every player, no matter their imports or past decisions, sees the kid die and knows its impact on Shepard through the game.

[dreamgazer]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Having Avina as the ultimate antagonist of the series would be ridiculous.

The way I see it Avina would have made a nice data dump as to what the Crucible can do. She could still be just a VI and in no way tied to the Reapers. 

Agreed, which is really all the Catalyst does.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

I'd frankly have him absent. The Citadel opens, the Crucible docks and presto! Climax over. You get a cool cut scene based on your choices & EMS and roll credits. Would have been so much better.

That would have sucked.

What wouldn't have sucked, David?

[David7204]

No, that still doesn't cover it. As I said, plenty of people have suggested that the Catalyst would be so much better if he was replaced by a dead squadmate or something like Avina. As if they WANT him to be represented by someone they like and trust.

[The Night Mammoth]

k.lalh wrote...

Perhaps people don't like him because he's not likeable as a villain. For example, Boba Fett is a villain...yet people like him, because they see him as a bada**

The catalyst has few redeeming qualities...so people don't like him.

Same reason some like TIM, but most hate Leng.

There's a marked difference between really not liking a character, and not supporting or agreeing with a villain. 

What I mean is, I'm going through a list of villains in my head and I can honestly say the ones I don't like are just bad characters, full stop. Good villains, to me, have redeeming qualities, or at least an element of likability about them. 

Just look at the villains in this series. Saren, the Illusive Man, and the Reapers. Are they widely loathed? No, they're actually quite well regarded for the most part. People might not support them, or like who they are as characters, but they acknowledge them as well crafted.

Can the same be said about the Catalyst? I can think of maybe one person on this forum who genuinely believes, and argues, that the Catalyst is a good villain. 

Why? The Catalyst is less villain and more symbolic expository device. It's not a good character, it was never going to be a good character, it's implementation is far too late in the game, but far too much importance is put on it for it to slide away as just another largely irrelevant part of the story, like many of the other minor villains.

What would have worked in its place? Vendetta, maybe. An anonymous VI/AI like Vigil, just a blob of fizzing light.  

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 18 avril 2013 - 03:41 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I think it should have been another doom and gloom speech by Harbinger.

Rewrote the whole thing myself.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 18 avril 2013 - 03:36 .

[dreamgazer]

There isn't a perfect solution to this problem, David.

I agree with you about a dead squadmate, though.

[David7204]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

I'd frankly have him absent. The Citadel opens, the Crucible docks and presto! Climax over. You get a cool cut scene based on your choices & EMS and roll credits. Would have been so much better.

That would have sucked.

What wouldn't have sucked, David?

- A somewhat satisfying nonconventional solution that's introduced and executed better, but has some sort of heavy price, not revealed until the end.
- A conventional victory for a 'perfect' playthrough with the nonconventional solution not going to waste somehow.
- A more satisfying motive for the Reapers, not revealed until the end.
- A perfect victory being achieved in a single moment of great courage, skill, or willpower from Shepard. The climax, basically. Shepard tips the scales in a single moment somehow.
- A confrontation with the antagonist.
- Clear signs that conventional victory is the 'best' solution, despite some Reapers obviously remaining.
- Perhaps a choice for good-but-not-perfect-playthroughs for the player to choose conventional victory at the cost of Shepard's and the crew's death, or choose the nonconventional solution and the price that goes along with it. Something like that.

I think that covers it for what we're talking about.

Modifié par David7204, 18 avril 2013 - 03:38 .

[Han Shot First]

If the Catalyst is going to be in the game, I guess my biggest issue with it is voice acting. Although it wasn't my only issue with the endings, the final act of the game was dragged down by bad voice acting.
The vast majority of children can't act. Since a video game is unlikely to discover the next Haley Joel Osment, it would have been better to go with an adult voice actor.

I guess that isn't really what the OP is asking however, so if I were going to have the Catalyst appear in another form I guess I'd have it do something like the Leviathan, and appear in a variety of forms that might have psychological significance to Shepard. I'd have it appear as the child one moment, the Virmire casualty the next, the human Shepard watched melt aboard the Collector Base, Thane, Mordin, Anderson, ect.

[MegaSovereign]

Damn, Han Shot First beat me too it.

I think it should have played out a lot like the Leviathan confrontation. It would have made sense too since Leviathan would have set that form of communication as precedent.

The Catalyst taking the form of a ghost child is confusing and seemingly deceptive. Its appearance is the backbone of conspiracy theories like IT.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 18 avril 2013 - 03:48 .

[dreamgazer]

Eh, cycling through people that have died in the conflict would still appear deceptive and manipulative to me.

[Mr.House]

A VI of the race that created the crucible and explain what it does, how they figured it all out and why they failed. Also give their theory on why the Reapers do what they do. Then a hologram of Harbinger pops up and you have one last convo with him before you make your choice.

[Hey]

 this guy, prolly?

[MegaSovereign]

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, cycling through people that have died in the conflict would still appear deceptive and manipulative to me.

It doesn't have to be cycling through the dead. Leviathan used Shepard's memories as a medium for communication.

[Kel Riever]

Um, I'd prefer no catalyst whatsoever and therefore a story that made sense?

Yeah, that's it. That would be it.

[Dr. Doctor]

Reaper AI taking control of TIM after his attempt to control the Reapers fails. Either that or Glyph:

[KiwiQuiche]

I would have prefered it if it had shifted forms if you questioned it on why it looks like a kid.
"Why do you look like a child?"
"I could like like others, if that would make you more at ease. Like someone you've killed" *turns into Saren then TIM* "Someone you obey" *turns into Hackette* "Someone you respect" *turns into Anderson" "Someone you love" *turns into LI if you have one* "someone you let die" *turns into the Virmire'd or people who you've known died throughout the trilogy like at the suicide mission/mordin/thane/whatever* Or even yourself" *shifts into you.*
"Knock that crap off!"
"Hmph, you asked." Turns back into kid

I dunno. At least let you question why the gorram Reaper Lord looks like some ****** kid.
All I could think was "great Bioware is trying to be all deep again. Ugh"

[Dubozz]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I massive flopping penis.

It would have about the same effect.

[ADLegend21]

Mr.House wrote...

A VI of the race that created the crucible and explain what it does, how they figured it all out and why they failed. Also give their theory on why the Reapers do what they do. Then a hologram of Harbinger pops up and you have one last convo with him before you make your choice.

^^

[TheIdiocyWizard2.0]

I personally would have preferred Harbinger. Even if everything else was the same, the scene would be much better.

Other than that, the only thing that kind of makes sense would be a Leviathan VI (though I personally hate that DLC and refuse to download it).

[Wolfva2]

I think people just don't know what the catalyst was. It's just a computer program. It took the form of the child because THAT was the strongest image in Shep's head. It wanted an image that Shep would be familiar with, but which wasn't overtly manipulative. Had it taken the form of a dead team mate, it probably would have garnered distrust. Had it taken on Harbies or Sovies form, it DEFINITELY would have garnered distrust. So, it picked a harmless child...a child that Shep used to watch play in the park from his office window, who Shep tried to save, and couldn't. A child Shep watched die, helplessly.

Some people hate that because they see it as a sign of weakness in Shep. How DARE BW claim that he...he...he's NORMAL! That he might actually be affected by some stupid kid dying! They want a careless, emotionless, hard core TerminatorShep who trods upon the skulls of babies without a thought. <shrug> Oh well, BW decided Shep would care. Sucks to be you.

As far as what form I'd want the Catalyst to take...I say the kid. Because it fits psychologically, and it fit the narrative. And, because I've watched enough sci-fi to understand the trope.

[Voodoo2015]

A child fits I do not think so! Some more reaper like that thing is very old.!