Dabrikishaw wrote...
My only issue with DA2's final boss was that you had to fight both Meredith and Orsino regardless of which side you pick.
Well, that and we never learn where Meredith's powers came from besides "Magic Red Sword of Craziness"
Boss fights are too videogamey
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The Antagonist
, avril 18 2013 07:05
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#226
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 05:31
Iakus
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Well, that and we never learn where Meredith's powers came from besides "Magic Red Sword of Craziness"
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#227
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 05:57
Nightdragon8
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iakus wrote...
Dabrikishaw wrote...
My only issue with DA2's final boss was that you had to fight both Meredith and Orsino regardless of which side you pick.
Well, that and we never learn where Meredith's powers came from besides "Magic Red Sword of Craziness"
Considering it ended up getting destoryed because of the fight and her over use of it.
More than likly some bloodmagic item that Drawf sect used to make it.
Also while I understand people hating that you couldn't "save one side" I think the fact that in reality, Orsino wasn't a "Good guy" but a bad guy, remember he helped the guy who ended up killing Hawkes mother and all the other women. And Meredith was just too power hungery and hated mages to the point of no return. So in reality they wher both people who should not have been in power to begin with. (but such is life) and it all crumbled.
And as Varric says, blame the Idol blame Meredith or blame Orsino, even blame Hawke, there is plenty of blame to go around. The fact of the matter is that, there was not ONE thing you can pin the blame on.
#229
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 08:09
Nightdragon8
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Dave of Canada wrote...
Mike 9987 wrote...
Oh, god forbid a video game be videogamey. Also, we should stop movies having conclusive endings, you know because that's to movie.....ey.
Read.
.... so what you are saying is he is he is not giving his opionoin that a video game should be a video game, and insted you are pretty much calling him something that can be considered better than a troll.
#231
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 11:25
dsl08002
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If you Think that Boss fights are videogamey then you shouldnt play videogames at all.or at least has completley missed the purpose of what video games is about.
#232
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 11:46
Bleachrude
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Er..the point about "boss fights being too videogamey" is that the quote referred SPECIFICALLY to TiM,
It doesn't mean that orsino or meredith shouldn't be boss battles but the way that TiM was written as a purely cerberal character, it would seem out of character for you to start shooting him.
Saren for example, had been presented throughout the game as a physical opponent (Spectre) and in the game itself before the end, you got a small taste of that combat. So it wasn't surprising that at the end of you fight Saren.
TiM, nowhere in the games themselves is presented as being a physical threat/antagonist so that's why him being a boss battle is considered too videogamey (aka...have a boss battle JUST because).
That actually was the problem with BOTH Meredith and Orsino (especially the latter if you were a mage supporter) turning on you and forcing you to fight...sure, we knew that both are physical theats given we see them fighting before in the game, but it seemed like the only reason there was a battle there was because someone said "ok..end of the game..time for a boss battle"
I believe this is what Dave of Canada imeans by linking to strawman fallacy. BW never said that "boss battles are too videogamey".
They said that turning the character that we have known across two games as a thinker into a final boss battle fight was too videogamey...
BIG DIFFERENCE...
It doesn't mean that orsino or meredith shouldn't be boss battles but the way that TiM was written as a purely cerberal character, it would seem out of character for you to start shooting him.
Saren for example, had been presented throughout the game as a physical opponent (Spectre) and in the game itself before the end, you got a small taste of that combat. So it wasn't surprising that at the end of you fight Saren.
TiM, nowhere in the games themselves is presented as being a physical threat/antagonist so that's why him being a boss battle is considered too videogamey (aka...have a boss battle JUST because).
That actually was the problem with BOTH Meredith and Orsino (especially the latter if you were a mage supporter) turning on you and forcing you to fight...sure, we knew that both are physical theats given we see them fighting before in the game, but it seemed like the only reason there was a battle there was because someone said "ok..end of the game..time for a boss battle"
I believe this is what Dave of Canada imeans by linking to strawman fallacy. BW never said that "boss battles are too videogamey".
They said that turning the character that we have known across two games as a thinker into a final boss battle fight was too videogamey...
BIG DIFFERENCE...
#234
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 12:15
kumquats
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dsl08002 wrote...
If you Think that Boss fights are videogamey then you shouldnt play videogames at all.or at least has completley missed the purpose of what video games is about.
I don't agree with that in general, since I love to play Adventures and Simulations and there are normaly no Boss battles.
But we are talking about a Fantasy RPG.... if they don't put a High Dragon Boss battle in there, the BW fans would be the first to start a campaign to bring Boss battles back. xD
BSN is twisted like that.
#235
Guest_simfamUP_*
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 02:54
Guest_simfamUP_*
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Dabrikishaw wrote...
Saying something is too video gamey in a video game is incredibly stupid. That mindset is half the problem with modern video games.
I think BioWare just used the incorrect term. What they meant (I think) is that Boss Fights remove a lot of the depth that eno****er had.
I think that Boss fights should be present if they are important to the narrative, if they make sense. That means that 3/4 of them should be entirely optional, like Geralt's encounter with Letho at the end of The Witcher 2.
ME3 did not need a Boss fight with Harbinger, it would be been absurd, whacky and would have destroyed any fear-factor the Reapers had left after ME3's cautious attempt to not make the Reapers SUPER powerful as Sovreign was in ME1.
Will DA3 need a boss fight? That remains to be seen. But I would love to see an optional one, especially if this nemesis was as grey and well written as Letho. But having boss-fights for the sake of them? No, that doesn't belong to a story-driven game.
#236
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 03:42
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
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iakus wrote...
Dabrikishaw wrote...
My only issue with DA2's final boss was that you had to fight both Meredith and Orsino regardless of which side you pick.
Well, that and we never learn where Meredith's powers came from besides "Magic Red Sword of Craziness"
That isn't true--you DO find out they come from the red lyrium.
But I stated it once before and I'll repeat it--they should have only had you fight one side. Or, if you refuse to pick sides, have to fight both--maybe at the same time.
I would have done it.
#237
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 03:45
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
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JediHealerCosmin wrote...
A Final Fantasy game on the old SNES systems had around 20+ bosses each with different strategies and weaknesess. I don't know if programming was easier back then, but those encounters put a lot of current games to shame.
It wasn't easier, but the graphics consisted of a 16-bit sprite for each character or enemy, and the world was completely 2d.
Three dimensions is an enormous, enormous step up. Smooth (read: lots of them) animations are a huge step up. These things are enormous drains on a game's production--I'd imagine. Feel free to correct me, any devs.
#238
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 03:54
Lennard Testarossa
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dsl08002 wrote...
If you Think that Boss fights are videogamey then you shouldnt play videogames at all.or at least has completley missed the purpose of what video games is about.
Do tell, what are video games all about?
#239
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 04:50
Giantdeathrobot
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The High Dragon and Ser Cauthrien in Origins were good boss battles. They brought something new to the table and challenged the player, and if knew what you were doing weren't too long. The Dragon in DAII is an example of how NOT to do a boss; stick boatloads of HPs and endlessly respawning mooks on a boss that can't even be targeted half the time.
I,d say, have the devs look at games like Dark Souls and the Batman Arkham series for inspiration. Yeah, they're not RPGs in the Bioware sense, but there are good ideas in there. Apart from a few truly unfair ones, Dark Souls has really great bosses.
I,d say, have the devs look at games like Dark Souls and the Batman Arkham series for inspiration. Yeah, they're not RPGs in the Bioware sense, but there are good ideas in there. Apart from a few truly unfair ones, Dark Souls has really great bosses.
#240
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 05:55
Iakus
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EntropicAngel wrote...
That isn't true--you DO find out they come from the red lyrium.
But I stated it once before and I'll repeat it--they should have only had you fight one side. Or, if you refuse to pick sides, have to fight both--maybe at the same time.
I would have done it.
Right, but lyrium (so far as we know) doesn't do stuff like that. Even for mages, which Meredith was not
I do agree about the "one or the other" part.
#241
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 06:01
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iakus wrote...
Right, but lyrium (so far as we know) doesn't do stuff like that. Even for mages, which Meredith was not
I do agree about the "one or the other" part.
Normal Lyrium. Red lyrium does--see Bartrand.
What we don't know is more about the red lyrium than Meredith.
#242
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 07:12
Luckywallace
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Well, I would totally agree that I hate dull bosses with huge life bars that don't require much in the way of tactics after a few minutes to learn their patterns - the High Dragon from DA2 was a terrible boss fight and I never finished it.
Stuff like Corypheous or the Ancient Rock Wraith were cool though.
Stuff like Corypheous or the Ancient Rock Wraith were cool though.
Modifié par Luckywallace, 20 avril 2013 - 07:12 .
#243
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 07:31
Cainhurst Crow
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Henioo wrote...
bad boss is better than no boss.
And a good boss encounter(persuading saren to shoot himself or loghain to stand down) is much better than a bad boss fight (Orsino turning into a flesh golem because we gotta meet that boss quota).
This thread is getting no where, and the quote isn't even being understood in context by most people.
#244
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 07:45
BigEvil
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I'd rather see boss fights in the game because they make sense. Don't chuck them in to fill a quota but don't avoid them if it makes narrative sense for there to be a boss fight at some point. Meredith made sense (in a sort of non-sense way) as a boss fight, she was crazy, possessed by the Lyrium idol, a rabid dog which needed putting down, etc. Orsino did not make sense for anyone who sided with the mages. If they really thought it was necessary for two boss fights, mage supporters could have fought an elite group of templars, perhaps a throw back to older RPGs where you'd end up fighting a group of characters similar, in terms of power level, to the party.
#245
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 07:59
Cainhurst Crow
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I don't believe that bioware has ever really been anti-boss fight for that matter, they just decided not to force a character into filling a bossfight role just for the sake of a boss fight.
Me3 had boss fights even, (Kai leng, Rannoch Reaper, Citadel dlc villian), about as much as ME2 did,(Reaper Embryo, Shadow Broker, Overlord boss)
Me3 had boss fights even, (Kai leng, Rannoch Reaper, Citadel dlc villian), about as much as ME2 did,(Reaper Embryo, Shadow Broker, Overlord boss)
#246
Posté 20 avril 2013 - 08:23
philippe willaume
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Henioo wrote...
bad boss is better than no boss.
Nope not in an RPG, otherwise you end up with DA:2 ending that is just as good as an action/shooter with a bit of story in it.
in fact i would say that return to castle does it better than DA:2
phil
#247
Posté 22 avril 2013 - 07:19
MrCousland99
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It's too video gamey...BECAUSE IT IS A VIDEO GAME!
#248
Posté 22 avril 2013 - 09:26
Spedfrom
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People need to read the arguments presented. It's deeper than "...because it's a videogame!" and it rings true in many cases.
#249
Posté 23 avril 2013 - 01:11
SeismicGravy
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Saying a video game is too video gamey is like saying a wheel is too circular.
Modifié par SeismicGravy, 23 avril 2013 - 01:11 .
#250
Posté 23 avril 2013 - 01:38
Mark of the Dragon
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I for one enjoy having boss fights at the end of the game.
I can see why it bugs someone but the end of a game needs to have a final challenge that puts all your skills to the test. If there is not a challenge why worry about leveling up your character in the first place?
I thouroughly enjoyed the Archdemon fight in DAO. The dragon was a huge challenge on higher difficulties and the swarms of darkspawn that emerged half way through the fight made the whole conflict seem fun. In DAO the boss fight was just tediuos. Meredith was a great example of a badly implemented boss fight.
In essence I would like to see more DAO than DA2. I would be ok if you could avoid final conflicts through persuasion but if thats the case then Bioware needs to make sure that players no what they are doing end game. In most cases I like killing things so I dont want to accidently avoid an entire end game fight by "winning" the conversation.
Some people mention having multiple, equal level opponents as a boss fight. MY only worry for this type of fight is that it will turn out like ME3. The whole end game of ME3 was crap. THey just spammedm ultiple enemies non stop to slow you done. It was seriously one of my least favorite parts of the game.
I can see why it bugs someone but the end of a game needs to have a final challenge that puts all your skills to the test. If there is not a challenge why worry about leveling up your character in the first place?
I thouroughly enjoyed the Archdemon fight in DAO. The dragon was a huge challenge on higher difficulties and the swarms of darkspawn that emerged half way through the fight made the whole conflict seem fun. In DAO the boss fight was just tediuos. Meredith was a great example of a badly implemented boss fight.
In essence I would like to see more DAO than DA2. I would be ok if you could avoid final conflicts through persuasion but if thats the case then Bioware needs to make sure that players no what they are doing end game. In most cases I like killing things so I dont want to accidently avoid an entire end game fight by "winning" the conversation.
Some people mention having multiple, equal level opponents as a boss fight. MY only worry for this type of fight is that it will turn out like ME3. The whole end game of ME3 was crap. THey just spammedm ultiple enemies non stop to slow you done. It was seriously one of my least favorite parts of the game.
