295 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Ugh, no... Not a fan. There was no sense of accomplishment at all. The last wave wasn't even difficult, or anything we hadn't seen a dozen times before. Not to say a boss battle would have made anything better or worse, but the entire encounter design from the second Priority Earth started was poor at best, terrible at worst. 

The last wave is a fair bit more than we've faced in SP before and has a Reaper shooting at us in addition.  Overall I'm not keen on Priority Earth at all, but I think the bit where you're defending the artillery is fine.  Aside from some story based quibbles about "Thanix Missiles", anyway.

Stuff in the higher levels of MP makes it seem like rather small beer, but I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I had struggled with parts of ME's combat in the past, but I never had a problem with any of Priority Earth's fights (except that worthless machine gun mount section with the husks, that had nothing to do with nothing... God, that REEKED of lazy encounter design).

Regardless, the design was "kill the wave enemies until you can activate the missile controls." That's incredibly flimsy encounter design. Also, why the heck does it take fifteen minutes of typing to do anything in the future? Who is designing these missiles?

[Terraforming2154]

I think saying anything is too videogamey in a videogame is sort of  stupid (Bioware has really been pushing cinematic style over gameplay content lately), but I still don't necessarily think all boss fights or needed or handled well. A good example is the first Bioshock, where I think the final boss really ruined the tone of the game somewhat because it didn't feel like it belonged.

I do think games need a legitimate challenge toward the end -- at least a final hurdle to cross. Sometimes I like enemies with a huge amount of health (DAO's Archdemon was a fun fight and made sense in the context of the game), but sometimes fights that require strategy or well-equipped/leveled characters are good too. As long as it is well done and makes sense within the story, I'll enjoy it.

I will say, I'm not fond of the non-fight a lot of video games do though...I don't like just pressing a button to end the conflict. Fable II and III were pretty damn notorious with endings like that. They just feel cheap, imo.

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 19 avril 2013 - 04:39 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Boss fights are too videogamey? Because Sega, Sony & Nintendo!

[Mr Arg]

I would prefer a few things for boss fights:
1 - No cliche things like "stronger as their health gets lower", mindless hacking and slashing against a boss with a million health, or quick-time events
2 - No fights that break the style of the game (In Deus Ex HR, everything is very realistic with armour and headshots, until you get to a boss fight and it takes a dozen headshots against a guy who isn't wearing a helmet...)
3 - for the fight to push the capabilities of the of what's possible in the game (use of environment, etc.)
4 - for the fight to be optional (negotiations), or more narrative

[Fawx9]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The last wave is a fair bit more than we've faced in SP before and has a Reaper shooting at us in addition.  Overall I'm not keen on Priority Earth at all, but I think the bit where you're defending the artillery is fine.  Aside from some story based quibbles about "Thanix Missiles", anyway.

Stuff in the higher levels of MP makes it seem like rather small beer, but I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.

Ah yes, multiplayer: the ethereal side of Mass Effect 3 rumored to include volus as combatants, Geth as allies, and Collectors as yet alive.

We have dismissed that claim.

>Likes PE final fight
> Doesn't like MP

You my friend have weird taste. 

Also the final fight was a joke. You stayed alive until the last wave and then you just bounced between cover. There was nothing interesting about that, it was: Did the warp ball hit me? Wait for recharge : Keep moving. 

They should have at least given the 'tank' a health bar so you had to actually defend it. 

[archangel1996]

The absence of a final boss fight in ME3 is the last problem in that game XD

[Il Divo]

What I've taken from this thread is that we need more games like Dark Souls. Some great boss fights there.

[CoffeeHolic93]

Il Divo wrote...

What I've taken from this thread is that we need more games like Dark Souls. Some great boss fights there.

+1

[Cainhurst Crow]

I think there is a middle ground between the two sides on this issue that could easily be reached. But that's just me, imo.

Have boss fights that have interesting approaches to solve them, are actually fun and challenging, and most importantly, actually work with the story being told and the characters involved in a fight.

For example, let's use star wars. Say your a jedi, and you've been on a quest to defeat the big bad sith lord. You've fought his grunts, his bounty hunters(mid-bosses), his apprentices and assassins(Actual bosses), One or two big and terrible beasties(monster bosses), and now your going to fight the big bad sith lord himself darth anonymus or something(Final boss). The character is skilled in the force, good with a saber, and damn hard to hit at times, but so are you from your leveling and previous battles, and so the battle feels like a pretty good duel and actually an appropriate hurdle. That would be an example of a good fight, imo, because it was built up from the start or at the very least was an expected encounter to face.

Now imagine if instead of confronting a sith lord, you find out your going to fight a hutt, with eye lasers, becasue reasons. Not only that, but your attacks don't affect him until a certain amount of time, when he gets glowing weakpoints highlighted on him, to make the battle seem longer. After you beat the slug, you find out he was really working for some normally looking guy the whole time whose never fought a fight in the whole game and is more a manipulator with his words. He pulls out a saber and your duel him, and beat him after a little bit of time. But oh-te-noes, he's actually got some mcguffin power that transforms him into a 3 headed rancor, becuase you need a bigger fight against a terrible beastie becasue everyone elses games have one of those.

That right there, that's what I don't llike in video games. That's the kind of boss fight that screams "Video gamey" to me. It's not there because it helps the story. It's not there because it matches the characters actions. It's not there because it helps to enhance the gameplay and give a memorable battle for the player. It's there because it's expect of a video game to have a final beastie boss fight to tie up the game, instead of an actual or rewarding and well built up encounter.

I think DAO did a pretty good job at times with it's bossess, some were annoying with their big health bars and ridiculous damage output. Others were actually really good, with interesting mechanics to them and a strategy to beat them. But they all more or less fit into the general narrative without requiring a headscratching excuss for the character to decide to fight or for a fight being at this part of the game. A lot of others though didn't do this well, and fall much more into category 2 than category 1.

As a side note though, Me3 did technically have a boss battle. IT was on rannoch, when you take down the reaper using the orbital strikes. Though I'm not sure how many people would count that, imo.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 19 avril 2013 - 05:12 .

[Fawx9]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

>Likes PE final fight
> Doesn't like MP

You my friend have weird taste. 

Also the final fight was a joke. You stayed alive until the last wave and then you just bounced between cover. There was nothing interesting about that, it was: Did the warp ball hit me? Wait for recharge : Keep moving. 

They should have at least given the 'tank' a health bar so you had to actually defend it. 

It was interesting in that it wasn't a boss fight, yet it still managed to convery a sense of urgency, of importance.

Basically Priority: Earth it one giant end mission, and I feel this really benefits it because it manages to give a fair amount of time to it.

Lots of "it"s there.

I wouldn't say it's interesting because it wasn't a boss. If anything it felt like a mid event in your stanadard finale Such as how you have to clear out the streets of Denerim in DA:O , even if PE is tuned up a bit higher than some.  

[Fast Jimmy]

Il Divo wrote...

What I've taken from this thread is that we need more games like Dark Souls. Some great boss fights there.

I've taken "if you are going to do boss fights, do them well. And if you don't do them, put something else in to break up the narrative, shift up the gameplay and give a sense of progression, instead if just leaving an empty crater in your game design."

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 avril 2013 - 05:17 .

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

What I've taken from this thread is that we need more games like Dark Souls. Some great boss fights there.

I've taken "if you are going to do boss fights, do them well. And if you don't do them, put something else in to break up the narrative, shift up the gameplay and give a sense of progression, instead if just leaving an empty crater in your game design."

That works, as well. I just find Dark Souls to be an excellent example of that "thrill" which comes with earning victory by the skin of your teeth.

Modifié par Il Divo, 19 avril 2013 - 05:24 .

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

As a side note though, Me3 did technically have a boss battle. IT was on rannoch, when you take down the reaper using the orbital strikes. Though I'm not sure how many people would count that, imo.

An excellent example of something very different. But the problem with something like that is, once you figure out the gimmick, it's a breeze. I suppose everything's that way, but in some cases it gets tedious.

There was also the scene with Eva's escape, where you had to chase her down and stop her or a mission failure screen would pop up. Kai Leng's two fights were similarly "boss-fight-esque." 

ME3 had boss fights. But apparently they didn't mind being video gamey at those points in the game. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

As a side note though, Me3 did technically have a boss battle. IT was on rannoch, when you take down the reaper using the orbital strikes. Though I'm not sure how many people would count that, imo.

An excellent example of something very different. But the problem with something like that is, once you figure out the gimmick, it's a breeze. I suppose everything's that way, but in some cases it gets tedious.

There was also the scene with Eva's escape, where you had to chase her down and stop her or a mission failure screen would pop up. Kai Leng's two fights were similarly "boss-fight-esque." 

ME3 had boss fights. But apparently they didn't mind being video gamey at those points in the game. 

You do realize the quote about something being too video gamey was talking about the illusive man right? And how they didn't want him to turn into this thing when you killed him.



I would call turning the illusive man into that just because you needed to uphold a stupid boss fight tradition very video gamey and unnessicary.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 19 avril 2013 - 05:30 .

[Il Divo]

^ That would have been idiotic.

[Cainhurst Crow]

^ I know right? I almost wonder how they even thought making TIM a boss battle monster would be a good idea.

Personally I'm glad someone caught this idea and was like, "No. Just no." and scrapped it before it made it into the final game.