178 réponses à ce sujet

[JCAP]

In Exile wrote...

JCAP wrote...

DA:O forced us to be very picky and carefull when seleting party, and the combat forced us to use different strategies, your brain was always working.

It did? When? Or do you mean, by "carefully selecting" do you mean "pick all the mages"?  

Carefull because there are characters that should come with us in certain areas (for example, Shale and Deep Roads). And to introduce Shale in your party, you have to change a little bit your tactics, and maybe change one of the other companions.

DA:2 - Varric, Anders, Aveline/Fenris, kill, next one, kill, next one, kill, Anders heal here please, kill, next one, kill, Anders would you kindly heal here?, kill...

Fireball. Fireball. Cone of Cold. Cone of Cold. Fireball. Fireball. #everydaoecounterever

Maybe I am being a little unfair, but the fact is, DA2 just wasn't challeging as DA:O. And the waves of enemies turned it more frustrating than anything else

On nightmare? I have to disagree. 

I didn't even play on nightmare. I made the first playthrough on normal.

Then in the 2nd,I just used "runscript killallhostiles" 

Modifié par JCAP, 20 avril 2013 - 10:07 .

[JCAP]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

JCAP wrote...
DA:O forced us to be very picky and carefull when seleting party, and the combat forced us to use different strategies, your brain was always working.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Whut? I've finished DAO like 7 times and I have yet to use my brain during combat in any section.

I'm sure the Mother and the Archdemon are a piece of cake for you on nightmare...

Modifié par JCAP, 20 avril 2013 - 10:06 .

[alex90c]

My problem with the combat is it just looked stupid.

What amplified this effect is the fact that I had just gone from playing DA:O where we share skill sets, animations and HP levels with enemies and then going to DA2 where we have completely different skill sets (to be honest, enemies mostly just had basic attack, lieutenants would have buffs, assassins a backstab, stealth), completely different animations and this absolutely ridiculous HP bloat. Why on earth do I have 400HP while some trash mob lieutenant has something like 8,000?

[Dave of Canada]

Unlike DA:O, you couldn't really just pause and trivialize the encounter with something like mana clash on the caster to take him out of the fight. This is both a good and bad thing, as fights get progressively harder in Dragon Age 2 than how it got progressively easier in Origins.

The problem stems mostly from the fact that you can't really coordinate your group effectively, you can't have a tank holding off the hordes at a choke point while your archer is preventing them from attacking the rear. In current Dragon Age 2, enemies jump down and see your healer and two-three shot him and then you're fighting tooth and nail because you couldn't defend him. It leads to a very passive playstyle where you're slowly edging your way, keeping a tank on your healer or building your healer tankier than he should be.

Waves as a mechanic make sense and are interesting but enemies shouldn't spawn out of no-where, nor should they sky-dive to attack. I'm thinking of the Broodmother fight, you've got the ramps which constantly spawn Darkspawn as you're fighting. That's something which makes more sense and has the same "feel".

[Dave of Canada]

JCAP wrote...

I'm sure the Mother and the Archdemon are a piece of cake for you on nightmare...

Easiest way to kill the Archdemon is constantly hitting it with the ballistae, it roars at you and never attacks. >.>

[Weltea]

Yeah I don't get when people complain about it either.
Yes the enemy waves with people just suddenly becoming visible or falling out of the sky were kind of really annoying, Carver and Fenris jumping two meters into the air with heavy swords almost as big as they are looked ridiculous but aside from that it was pretty good?
Are the mage-animation useless? Yes. Do they look great and make gameplay less boring? YES!
Are the moves a rogue can make realistic and look good,improving enjoyment of the gameplay? YES!
Are those animations (especially warriors) a little too showy? Yes. But hey,Varric IS telling a story.
If DA:I has better looking enemies, no suddenly 'out of the sky falling-second-wave enemies','no enemies that you need to look for because they're hiding around the corner and didn't join the combat so now it doesn't finish until you found them'-enemies,more realistic warrior animations,friendly fire for more difficulties and more spells then I'm perfectly happy.

JCAP wrote...

DA:O forced us to be very picky and carefull when seleting party, and the combat forced us to use different strategies, your brain was always working.

DA:2 - Varric, Anders, Aveline/Fenris, kill, next one, kill, next one, kill, Anders heal here please, kill, next one, kill, Anders would you kindly heal here?, kill...

Maybe I am being a little unfair, but the fact is, DA2 just wasn't challeging as DA:O. And the waves of enemies turned it more frustrating than anything else

Yes the waves of enemies (and how they were handled) did make it kinda frustrating but I certainly didn't have to be picky in DA:O. At least not more so than in DA2. And what you described as DA2 combat...is exactly what was going on in DA:O as well?
And the only really big difference in combat is that mages aren't so overpowered anymore because now your mage won't take out half of the attackers by freezing them for a while followed by stonefist and Crushing Prison while your warrior shieldbashes them. And that you can't set give your entire group bow and arrow and let them pick off one enemy after the other etc. Everything else is pretty much the same.
.

[andy6915]

JCAP wrote...

I'm sure the Mother and the Archdemon are a piece of cake for you on nightmare...

Um... Actually, my rogue Warden's can and does solo kill them. My party is usually down in the first 30 seconds, so I just handle it myself. The Warden is so powerful by the end that you're pretty much unstoppable. With Cailan's armor set, Rose Thorn and Fang, Andruil's Blessing and lifegiver and Spellward and Ring of Ages all equipped on me, and a 70% or higher chance of dodging, and 30 constitution and 40 strength and 40 dexderity and 36 cunning (getting all the Fade bonuses helps with getting these stats without cheating)... Yeah, I'm a physical god. You can't get nearly as godlike in DA2 no matter what your build, and that definitely makes DA2 harder then Origins.

Modifié par andy69156915, 20 avril 2013 - 10:53 .

[Shienis]

Qistina wrote...

DA:O

"Alistair, tank here!" (activate taunt)
"Morrigan, freeze Alistair in a time-space void!" (activate force field on Alistair)
"Leliana, stun everyone!" (activate scatter shot)
"Morrigan, use fireball!!" (using fireball and kill darkspawns)

DA2

"Everyone, kill kill kill die die die!!!!"

DA:O
"Sten, tank!"
"Dog, stun!"
"Warden, mass paralysis!"
Kill, kill, kill

DA2
"Carver/Aveline/Fenris, tank!"
"Hawke, Glyph of paralysis!"
"Hawke, Tempest!"
"Hawke, Cone of Cold!"
Everyone's dead...
next wave... <_<
OK, kill, kill, kill

kind of... the same... but DA2 was more fun! :innocent:

Weltea wrote...

Yeah I don't get when people complain about it either. 
Yes the enemy waves with people just suddenly becoming visible or falling out of the sky were kind of really annoying, Carver and Fenris jumping two meters into the air with heavy swords almost as big as they are looked ridiculous but aside from that it was pretty good?
Are the mage-animation useless? Yes. Do they look great and make gameplay less boring? YES! 
Are the moves a rogue can make realistic and look good,improving enjoyment of the gameplay? YES!
Are those animations (especially warriors) a little too showy? Yes. But hey,Varric IS telling a story.
If DA:I has better looking enemies, no suddenly 'out of the sky falling-second-wave enemies','no enemies that you need to look for because they're hiding around the corner and didn't join the combat so now it doesn't finish until you found them'-enemies,more realistic warrior animations,friendly fire for more difficulties and more spells then I'm perfectly happy.

I agree. Apart from the waves, I liked the DA2 combat more. 

Modifié par sierra-estrella, 20 avril 2013 - 11:01 .

[Wulfram]

The ubiquitous and boring use of waves and enemies that didn't use talents. Results in too many of the combats feeling like exactly the same thing that went on too damn long.

And the lack of friendly fire on easier difficulties. Also the way all the boss fights rely on manual dodging.

It's at heart a better system than DA:O IMO, but the encounter design makes it feel more boring to me.

[Sutekh]

I've got nothing against DA2 combat in itself. Its mechanics allow it to be as tactical and brainy as DAO's, which is to say either not much or a lot, depending on how you approach it (i.e. either deciding to go for it and have fun, or being in a hurry or not caring and slash / spell-spam your way through it just because you can).

Enemy placement and encounter design are what make a big difference for me; the tedious repetition, again and again and again and again. It felt more like work than anything. But some encounters were really good, and Legacy and MotA were way better in that department.

[DPSSOC]

My main complaint with the combat was that you couldn't really coordinate anything. Now DA:O didn't require me to do this but if I wanted to I could pause the game, assign orders, and watch it play out as planned. In DA2 orders and even tactics are just taken as polite suggestions. I've lost count of the times I've ordered a character to finish a cross class combo only to have them completely ignore me, or have 2 people dead and waiting for Anders to revive them (which I set up in tactics) he never did.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 20 avril 2013 - 11:12 .

[astreqwerty]

Im talking about combat mechanics here people. Stop repeating the same screens with airborn soldiers and waves. Im talking about the semantics of combat. And to all of you claiming the game was easy why on earth didnt you pump up the difficulty? Have you tried that quest with the cursed books on nightmare? Or maybe the high dragon? Lolaei in her suggestion video described how she didnt need to equip the armor with runes. In higher difficulties runes are vital to the gameplay for example. As far as the hack n slash accusations go, plz elaborate. How was a game a button mashing mindless hack n slash (aka gow)? Just because it had sped up animations? Imho the combat was identical to daos and better at times (CCC). The health bars were irrational, sure but if you think of it , that was due to the faster combat. Dao was no different it just had a better synchronization frame, if i can put it so. Dao= slow blows dealt realistic amounts of damage to normal sized health, da2= over the top fast paced hits dealt greater amounts of damage to unrealistcly dureable enemies. In the end It was just a matter of immersion and misplaced distribution if you ask me

[dsl08002]

The spawning of enemies
The Ridicolous Superhuman strength and agility
enemies exploding after one sword strike
The fact that you couldnt block or evade incoming Arrows or attacks

THe whole change from realistic medevel combat to final fantasy was a big let down for me.

[Ieldra]

DA2 is the first game in 25 years where I hate the combat so much that it adversely affects my enjoyment of the game as a whole. Reasons:

(1) Combat is too fast, there are too many enemies per encounter (as a rule) and enemies spawn out of nowhere all around you. It's impossible to employ any kind of tactics without pausing, it's impossible to plan your encounters, it's impossible to protect your healer, mage etc., and there is almost no tactical variety in combat encounters.

(2) There is too much combat, and too much unavoidable combat. Almost (?) all quest encounters are scripted so that if you try and reach a non-violent solution, you must fight anyway and all your verbal acuity comes to nothing, to the point that NPC and plot consistency are broken in order to let an encounter end in a fight. Also, if you have a small quest taking place in a small dungeon or cave, having a fight with too many enemies spawning out of nowhere in every room gets incredibly boring.

(3) The over-the-top combat style with mages thumping their staves on the ground (groan!), rogues jumping all over the place, knights doing somersaults in armor and exploding enemies breaks my suspension of disbelief. That the visual effects of spells are primitive and unappealing doesn't help.

(4) Spell combos are unintuitive - as opposed to DAO's - and created to enable team tactics with no regard for common sense, while DAO's intuitive combos were removed for no better reason that one character could create them by herself, again with no regard for common sense.

The net result is that combat in DA2 is just something I want to be over. It's either frustrating or it's a chore, and it's almost never fun. I am usually very tolerant of combat gameplay I find non-optimal, since I can always lower the difficulty, but DA2 manages the singular feat that I hate its combat so much that it poisons the rest of the game.

Edit:
I like the skill system (minus the combos, see above). I also liked DAO's combat style.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 avril 2013 - 12:19 .

[Henioo]

I hated animations. One, Hawke jumps around like it's the 80s or something ('she's a maniaaaaac, maniaaaaac"). Even the mage Hawke waves the staff around like they're perfoming in a circus or something. Also, the templars doing somersaults in metal armour.

Two, enemies appear out of thin air and jump at you from four meters high in full armour.

Three, mages teleport, and it was established there is no teleportation.

And four, there was barely any room for strategic fights. You always have to enter the encounters with full party, and damn the consequences. 10 shades, a blood mage and a Pride Demon? No problem, just fight them, innit. No need for planning.

[Althix]

well truth be told you need planning in da2 and you need more control in this game. if you play nightmare you can't win any encounter with out it. but it is not because game combat system is made so well, it is because combat system is made horribly bad.
and in time it just gets more frustrating and annoying.

also in da:o abilities like assault is just addition to autoattack, those abilities can give you an edge in combat.
in da2 abilities is primary source of killing, if abilities on cooldown you just can't kill ****. and most likely your party will be decimated. and no it's not a good thing.

although if you fancy party scripts - it's a very well made in da2. much better than in da:o. however those very scripts can kill let say Aveline if she gets in the way of buffed to hell reaver Hawke.

Also reaver Hawke is an example how bad combat is in DA2. Reaver can deliver ****loads of damage to a boss or wave of enemies with a single strike. Crippling the boss and killing simple mobs. However after that Hawke becomes useless for the second wave that will follow, because major source of his killing potential is on cooldown.

p.s. ah yes. also weapons design, animation is very bad and looks like anime. also jumps.
p.p.s you must be ashamed Bioware, Namco Bandai made a game where weapon and armor looks so much better than yours in DA2. Shame on you.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 20 avril 2013 - 12:41 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

I have a few gripes, mainly with the warrior class. I hate how only the mages recharge stamina/mana while the warrior class can only recharge when they kill someone, it get's really annoying when you're tanking on a though opponent only to have a mage or rogue sneak in an steal your kill while you've exhausted your stamina and are left with only the flaccid default attack which does next to nothing in terms of damage on the next batch of enemies which will drop from the sky.

I hated having to constantly have my mages switch between sustain powers if they wanted to heal and do damage, Wynne could handle doing both with out much micromanagement.

The cross class combos are also annoying, especially when you set up a tactic to stun an enemy to do bonus damage only for another party member to disorient them and screw up the whole thing.

DA2 was fairly tactical but mainly because you couldn't trust the commands in the tactics menu to work out as you planned forcing me to constantly switch between individual party member to the point of annoyance because despite being set to a specific tactic Anders wouldn't always remember to heal or to switch off his sustained healer power even when that's what I set him to do.

[andy6915]

astreqwerty wrote...
Or maybe the high dragon?

I know I said that DA2 is harder, but that's a bad example. A mage or rogue using a bow can easily kill the High Drgon on the hardest difficulty quite easily. My last dagger-shadow-assassin rogue killed it that way, just pelted it with arrows from a double-ice-runed bow (didn't have a single point in archery, I was a melee fighter for 99% of the game) and used decoy and stealth with my daggers to kill the smaller dragon groups. My last mage (force-spirit healer) using cold blooded also killed it solo too, gravatic ring pretty much let me walk all over the smaller dragon groups. Any class with range can beat it alone with little difficulty, though it will take a while to wear its huge amount of health down. Try that with the Origins high dragon and it would just come into melee range and kill you, but the DA2 one just sits there firing easily dodged fireballs and never closes in. The DA2 high dragon is pathetic.

Proof it's easy? Notice how easy it is to just ignore with high fire resist or dodge its fire attacks.



I'm amazed I couldn't find more examples. Do people not realize how easy the DA2 high dragon is to solo?

Modifié par andy69156915, 20 avril 2013 - 01:19 .

[robertthebard]

JCAP wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

JCAP wrote...
DA:O forced us to be very picky and carefull when seleting party, and the combat forced us to use different strategies, your brain was always working.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Whut? I've finished DAO like 7 times and I have yet to use my brain during combat in any section.

I'm sure the Mother and the Archdemon are a piece of cake for you on nightmare...

Actually, they were quite easy for me on Niightmare.  I didn't even realize DA O had other settings.  Ok, I'm lying about not realizing the settings, but frankly, Nightmare really isn't nightmarish at all.  I picked the game back up after about a year off from it, and was playing along thinking I had forgotten to change the difficulty when I reinstalled it, only to find that I had indeed changed it.  There wasn't a lot hard about it.

[kumquats]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lol I find it hilarious how people don't use tactics in DA2. You do realize you can do the whole "kill kill die die" thing in DA:O like in DA2, it's just a lot slower with more shuffling.

This.
You really don't need any kind of tactic to beat DA:O on normal.
Your enemies have the IQ of a potato. >.<

[Althix]

korcari wilds right darkspawn camp with hidden cash. hurlocks berserkers and genlocks with fire arrows.
same zone, trapped bridge with hurlock mage.
same zone wolves with alpha.
deep roads any encounter with genlock mages and spiders.
Leliana loyalty quest starter event.
assassins at orzamar entrance.
deep roads bridge with hurlock alpha, traps and genlocks spawn behind you.

i guess that what comes to my mind. i get dig some more if need be.

and it's not about iq of a scripted mob. it is because mobs fights like your party is. same move set same abilities.

p.s. deeproads genlocks archers that luring your party in the open. with bronto and mage - only this event is so much  better than any of da2 encounters.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 20 avril 2013 - 01:54 .

[Enigmatick]

^
Get Herbalism
Spam potions
Win every encounter in DA:O

[Sith Grey Warden]

1. There was too much of it. No matter what you were doing, there were always ridiculously huge numbers of enemies just wanting a piece of Hawke. When you help Aveline with her date, for example, are we really supposed to believe the average guard patrol could take those mobs on?

2. Fights were repetitive, though Legacy fixed this.

3. Button-mashing. The auto-attack toggle should have been in from the start, not patched in after I'd already completed my first playthrough.

4. Responsiveness. If I wanted party member A to attack enemy 77 more than 2 feet away, I had to manually run A over there because "It's too far!"

5. Stun-lock. Get your stun-lock out of tactical gameplay. This added to the buttonmashing as I had to try to get my character to do something before the next stun.

6. Enemies with a different rulebook. Mid-level enemy rogues should not have as much health as enemy warriors. I just hated the teleporting mages because it took forever to pin them down. I could never figure out when the crystal orb of doom would or wouldn't deal damage.

[Althix]

... you can't spamm potions in cp or under overwhelm. you can't spamm it with curse of mortality. you can't spamm it being grabed or rooted or with arrow in the leg. knocked. frozen. dazed. stuned and so on and so on and so on.

[Barrendall]

The mage combat mechanics are improved in DAII but the melee is way over the top. Since when did anyone explode when you stabbed them with a knife? (Besides a balloon animal that is...)