178 réponses à ce sujet

[10K]

Volus Warlord wrote...

DA2 was too button mashy. In general.

Go to options and change the damn settings, problem solved. You will no longer have to tap the same button to continuously attack.

[philippe willaume]

Siradix wrote...

philippe willaume wrote...

to further Wulfram point 
You can't really talk meaninfully about every bit of  what makes combat. 
or you end up with specious arguments akin of the best WWII battle riffle by both gamer and shooter. Where every specific is shown as a super advantage where as really there is not that much difference, especially once you understand how to use the different sighting systems.

DA:2 combat was as boring and repertive as playing two mages in DA:0 or a Ultima build in DA:2
The waves and the mook that comes with then were just stamina resplenishing machine.
The difficulty scaling was poor in bot game, I found it more painfull in DA:2 as it prolongs the whittling.
animation were too OTT in DA:2 and the shuffle in DA:0 is remining of a LFMAO recent hit.

DA:0 non mage were more versatile (two weapons specialisation), you could scout ahead (with skill or a stealth)
you could take advantage of terrain or modify.
as well you could used 
all that gave you much much much more tactical/stategical freedom than in DA:2

Basically in DA:0, you could make of for the build shortcomming of the character concept you wanted to play.
which is really another way to say using the combat/gamplay you wanted and DA:2  does not
Phil

You could do scouting in stealth for DA2, but it was only for about 10 seconds. Unless you maxed it out to be 15 seconds. But scouting proves to be pointless and a waste of stamina to do it when it's so short and the waves are out of no where.

yeap on all acounts

[Giant ambush beetle]

Bekkael wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

DA2 was too button mashy. In general.

DA:O's combat was toooo slow.

DA2's combat was toooo fast.

DA:I's combat will be just right?

Looking at the way Bioware approaches gameplay issues combat in DAI is going to be a mixture of too fast & too slow. Or there will be no combat at all.  

[Anomaly-]

In Exile wrote...
You're competely right - DA2 removed the DA:O rogue from existence, basically. I just find it hard to relate because I thought the DA:O rogue was an annoying micromanaging terror, and no matter the (in principle) DPS build that you had, the sheer investment cost in actually constantly clicking to move your character to the side to backstab significantly, significantly outweighted any benefit to ever playing the class.

That micromanaging is what I enjoy about the class. Like I said, in DA2 I felt no meaningful difference in gameplay when playing a Rogue compared to playing a Warrior. I like judging distances to nearest enemies and having to judge whether it's worth it to get behind a target, based on the type of enemy, the amount of health remaining, relative threat level, and other battlefield factors. All of that was gone in DA2, and I lost a lot of interest as a result.

Okay, here I have to disagree entirely. DA:O did not rely to any extent on traps (completely useless), pets (even as a damage sponge, pretty irrelevant).

Of course it didn't rely on those things. It would be a problem if it did. The point is, the option was there. I personally made a lot of use of all of those things. The rest of what you say are simply balance issues. Very easy to fix through simple modding.

DA:O certainly involved absolutely 0 planning out of fights in advance, since absolutely every single fight was indentical and could be dealt with the same way.

I really can't follow you here. There are many fights in DA:O where you are ambushed by meaningful waves of enemies coming through adjacent doors in hallways, etc. There were many instances where I would place traps and/or glyphs in front of those doorways just in case and be rewarded for my planning. That's the kind of thing I enjoy. Good luck trying to experience something of that nature in DA2.

Just because you found a way to exploit very powerful combinations of spells in DA:O doesn't mean you have to play that way, or that every encounter is inherently the same. Like I said, pretty much every criticism you've made of DA:O's combat has come down to simple balancing issues. Very easy to fix through modding. If you're playing on a console, well, that's unfortunate. But what has always irked me the most about DA2 is that instead of improving upon/rebalancing these things, they got rid of them completely. That's why I find DA2's combat to be a shell of it's former self. DA:O's design was vastly superior and allowed for many, many more approaches and variety, imo. Balance issues of either game aside.

I'd also object to crafting - in DA:O you had to gather ingredients before auto-making your potion by clicking a butotn, whereas in DA2 you have to gather cash before auto-clicking a button at camp to make your potion. 

DA:O required you to find those ingredients, manage them, and make decisions about what to take with you and what to leave behind. You couldn't carry everything you found. You also had to choose to invest in a crafting skill as opposed to other skills. That's another thing I enjoy that was completely absent in DA2, and another example of something that could have been easily improved upon/rebalanced instead of being completely gutted.

[terdferguson123]

JCAP wrote...

DA:O forced us to be very picky and carefull when seleting party, and the combat forced us to use different strategies, your brain was always working.

DA:2 - Varric, Anders, Aveline/Fenris, kill, next one, kill, next one, kill, Anders heal here please, kill, next one, kill, Anders would you kindly heal here?, kill...

Maybe I am being a little unfair, but the fact is, DA2 just wasn't challeging as DA:O. And the waves of enemies turned it more frustrating than anything else

As somebody who loves DA:O moreso than DA2, you are just plain wrong here. DA:2 is much more challenging than DA:O. Specifically on Hard/Nightmare mode, the difficulty in some fights is absolutely brutal. In DA:O after I have my second mage I will never die again on Nightmare mode. In DA2 I will die constantly on Nightmare during certain fights, it truly is nightmarish.

Modifié par terdferguson123, 21 avril 2013 - 03:17 .

[Renmiri1]

I liked combat in DA2.. Well.. loved the mage animations and could bear the speed. DAO was so slow as to be almost unplayable. I just put it on "retard mode" and tried to avoid combat as much as i could

[Jones7602]

I played DA2 on PC on nightmare because on the lower levels you'll never have to use your brain with things like spells not hurting my own party.
 
In general I wouldn't say the combat is wrong, but some things are bothering in the extreme. I really like that combat has become faster, flashier and in general more exciting. The major flaws for me are:

1) Encounter design: Mobs and wave combat are not wrong, but if you overuse this mechanic, it gets boring as hell. You get the feeling that this mechanic is not used to make the game more exciting but to unnecessary lengthen it by yet another wave of mooks.

2) Ninjas from the sky: The way most enemies enter the battlefield is simply impossible. Even in a fantasy game. Or a fairy tale. People don't fall from the sky, through a roof, land on their feet and start killing you.

3) Horrible balancing: Enemy rogues are a pain in the a... They can one hit you, they steal your potions and when you try to nail them down, they do some backflip kicking and teleport away. That makes the game somewhat more tactical because you have to lookout for those, but they are too powerful compared to my own rogue (why can't I oneshot something???) and once again overused.

4) Boss fights: This is simply the wrong game for that type of fight. If I want to spend an hour slowly hacking away millions of hit points with my merry sword swinging men, I'll play WoW. Apart from that, these bosses are pretty illogical, how can it be, that a simple crazy human or qunary has the same amount of hit points a freaking 100 foot long high dragon has?

5) Level scaling: While you attacks get more flashy, you don't really gain power. My expectation from any RPG is, that my characters progress in power. If you look back at games like Baldurs Gate, there was a lot of difference between a level 1 and a level 3 character. Once you gain spells like fireball your life gets so much easier. In DA2 you miss that feeling, as you learn to do more damage, simple critters gain huge amounts of hit points.

6) Overdone awesomeness: The game feels very much like a manga because every character can do impossible things like running at the speed of light in full plate over a battefield, jump 50 feet into the air, magically enhancing the length of the sword, throw enemies arround... all this stuff is simply overdone for a "serious" RPG. Basically Bioware has to decide, what they want to do and who they want to please.You can't cater BG fans the same way as WoW fans.

7) Lacking tactic settings: I can pretty much setup a tactic like "if your enemy starts clipping his nails, attack him with you scissors of doom". A simple "move out of the way of charging wyverns" or "don't stand in the way of your warriors special attacks" is impossible.

Modifié par Jones7602, 21 avril 2013 - 07:15 .

[Firky]

On difficulty. I thought DA2 was incredibly hard on nightmare on a first time through. And I love that. (And there were only a handful of fights I found difficult in Origins.)

But, 2nd and 3rd times through, I found it - still fairly challenging - and especially in Legacy - but easier - and a lot faster, once I knew what I was doing with abilities and gear (and avoiding commanders and their terribly slow attacks at low level.) I think it might have been a combination of some stuff that was patched, too, though.

I found DA2 more tactical because it involved a lot of movement. I loved it. I also enjoyed Origins a lot but, although I experimented with character builds, especially in the expansion, it was just never a real challenge. (May depend on playstyle, etc.)

[LilyasAvalon]

The speed of the combat was a general improvement (I'm talking about things like the mages reaction times and such, tell me this was NOT annoying in Origins and I'll give you your weight in sovereigns), but that was it.

Aside from that, it was button mashing, hack and slash and mediocre and annoying at best aside from maybe one or two boss fights. I find myself turning to casual too often, even if I TRY for a Harder run, simply for how ANNOYING those falling waves from the sky were, urgh.

Origins was more... realistic though, in terms of combat mechanics. Have you ever actually TRIED to lift a 2 Handed Weapon? Those ****ers are HEAVY and VERY DIFFICULT TO SWING, let alone do half the **** Fenris and Carver were doing.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 21 avril 2013 - 07:26 .

[Firky]

LilyasAvalon wrote...
Origins was more... realistic though, in terms of combat mechanics. Have you ever actually TRIED to lift a 2 Handed Weapon? Those ****ers are HEAVY and VERY DIFFICULT TO SWING, let alone do half the **** Fenris and Carver were doing.

That's an interesting point.

In Origins, my instinct was to run away when an enemy was swinging (although I have lots of turn based xp with games) but if you did that you'd still get hit, even if you were far away.

In DA2, the commander level enemies swung incredibly slowly and you could just dodge them. Which is what I thought I wanted, but it meant micromanaging everyone to avoid massive damage - and that was usually too easy to do.

In Legacy, though, the higher tier enemies had a couple of large attacks, not just one, and they were quicker and left/right, too, and difficult to anticipate. I think it worked much better than Origins, or DA2. Might have to go back for another look ...

[The Six Path of Pain]

mosesarose wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

DA2 was too button mashy. In general.

Go to options and change the damn settings, problem solved. You will no longer have to tap the same button to continuously attack.

yeah,but the auto attack in DA2 just didn't feel right.Plus watching the same damn repetitive over the top auto attack animation over and over again,without you pushing a button became a real bore.

[Dutchess]

Funny how some people consider the speed of DA2 an improvement. In my opinion it is too fast. You have no oversight. So much is happening at once. In DAO I regularly paused to issue tactics. I knew where everybody was, had a clear view of the enemies and could decide what to do next. In DA2 it was all just so... messy and chaotic that I mostly let everybody just fly around and hack 'n slash. When I tried to have my mage and archer strategically at the back of the battlefield, enemies would drop on their heads and I was in trouble. I so hated that, because it feels so random and cheaty of the game. It's like the game is trying to screw me over and make it more difficult by being nasty instead of requiring more thinking and better tactics.

[KiwiQuiche]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

mosesarose wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

DA2 was too button mashy. In general.

Go to options and change the damn settings, problem solved. You will no longer have to tap the same button to continuously attack.

yeah,but the auto attack in DA2 just didn't feel right.Plus watching the same damn repetitive over the top auto attack animation over and over again,without you pushing a button became a real bore.

You do realize that the auto attack animation in DAO was just as boring, right?

[Blazomancer]

Combat in DA2 was quite fun; well keeping aside the attack speed, the enemy-PC HP difference, the random elemental immuntites, the one hit wonder rogue/mages, stupid boss fights like Bertrand, the rigid attribute system, the imbalance between elemental and physical damage types, to name a few. Of course there are a lot of things that DA2 got right like a comparatively less rigid talent progression system.

I've played both games over a dozen times, and had a hell of a good time with both; even though the DA2 combat did have the potential to be great, it had signs of being a rushed product all over the place. Nightmare was crap for both games; Origins was ****** easy and DA2 nightmare was easy plus irritating as a side effect when I'm not in the mood. Personally, I'd prefer a bit of a slower paced combat, where I get to feel each of my weapon hits actually sucking the life out of my enemies.

So, replying to OP, I think it's all a matter of taste when someone says the combat in DA2 was right or wrong. Some would prefer more of a simulation while some would prefer a more arcade'ish combat. As long as the gameplay is fun and fluid, I wouldn't bother too much. But as much it was fun, the mechanics of DA2 had some serious balance issues (even after the final patch), which I'm sure would be sorted out/improved upon in DA3.

[Phaedros]

Dull, boring anti-immersive & repetetive come to mind..

[bEVEsthda]

astreqwerty wrote...

I hate that game with a passion... however I think there is one thing they got right with it. The combat. how can anyone suggest that the combat is all about button mashing is beyond me. Sure the waves of enemies and the never ending healthbars are more evidence of da2's (downgraded) quality but still the mechanics worked wonderfully. At least nightmare was a challenge (for many wrong reasons too but it was very rewarding). Imho many people confuse the faster animations with combat mechanics which seemed,at their core,  identical to daos if not improved. Can someone be so kind as to explain to me in which ways da2s combat was too action-y and what would they prefer for DAI?

I think I understand what Mike wanted to achieve with the combat, and as such, I can't fault him. I agree. The combat needed to become more console player friendly. But did it? Since I play the PC version, I don't know.

I've never spent much time to criticize DA2's combat. The combat gameplay is, in itself, not so important to me. It's important, in the way it represents danger and difficulties, in the path of the player char. As such, it's under-used. And that is one complaint I have against DA2 combat. It's the actual gameplay content itself, rather than an environmental factor in the gameplay.

Another complaint I have, is the animations. I find them despicable and childish, and underminds any attempt to take the char's story and roleplay seriously. You're in a bl***y cartoon, that is supposed to be "fun".

Intimately connected is the Zip-zap-kaboom action. Contemptible! Is all I have to say.

Intimately connected again is the way-overpowerful, superhuman, dynasty warriors 6- like, nuke-effects. Hurts immersion and attempts to take the game seriously.

Intimately connected again, is that all classes have corresponding, same combat powers. All have area effects, all have ranged powers, all have melee powers, all have proximity effects.  There is no fundamental difference between fighters, rouges, mages. And all have access to effects that are definitely magical. So why do we have mages at all? ...Like.

All in all, a mess that seem to be inspired by other games. Not particularly successful games that target a completely different market than role-players.

Further, one could criticize the combat for being invaried. And at such a drag. And one could criticize the appearance of the over-obvious console "Bosses", who, in typical console fashion, need to be patiently whittled down. Making it just more of a tedious chore. Consolish crap, would be the condensed assessment.

P.S. However, I want to stress that this criticism is not really important. It has relatively little weight for me. If the game had been good in other ways, I wouldn't complain at all.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 21 avril 2013 - 04:31 .

[10K]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

mosesarose wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

DA2 was too button mashy. In general.

Go to options and change the damn settings, problem solved. You will no longer have to tap the same button to continuously attack.

yeah,but the auto attack in DA2 just didn't feel right.Plus watching the same damn repetitive over the top auto attack animation over and over again,without you pushing a button became a real bore.

You do realize that the auto attack animation in DAO was just as boring, right?

Exactly, and most the time you'd watch your character shuffle before he decides to attack someone. DA2 might have over the top animations, and waves of mobs which get annoying sometime. But combat was much smoother than in Origins.

[The Six Path of Pain]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

mosesarose wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

DA2 was too button mashy. In general.

Go to options and change the damn settings, problem solved. You will no longer have to tap the same button to continuously attack.

yeah,but the auto attack in DA2 just didn't feel right.Plus watching the same damn repetitive over the top auto attack animation over and over again,without you pushing a button became a real bore.

You do realize that the auto attack animation in DAO was just as boring, right?

You do realize what your doing makes you extremely annoying and also makes you look like a troll!...you do realize this right

Modifié par The Six Path of Pain, 21 avril 2013 - 06:40 .

[The Six Path of Pain]

mosesarose wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

mosesarose wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

DA2 was too button mashy. In general.

Go to options and change the damn settings, problem solved. You will no longer have to tap the same button to continuously attack.

yeah,but the auto attack in DA2 just didn't feel right.Plus watching the same damn repetitive over the top auto attack animation over and over again,without you pushing a button became a real bore.

You do realize that the auto attack animation in DAO was just as boring, right?

Exactly, and most the time you'd watch your character shuffle before he decides to attack someone. DA2 might have over the top animations, and waves of mobs which get annoying sometime. But combat was much smoother than in Origins.

I'm not saying the auto attack wasn't boring in Origins and wouldn't have minded if it was just a little faster.But at least it was just a basic attack instead of an attack pattern that after a while got really old...Matter of fact,half the time I wasn't really paying attention to the auto attack in Origins.I was using tactics,which I found that you couldn't really do in DA2.Not to the extent of Origins anyway /:

[Hazegurl]

DA:O combat was basically

Rouge:hit.......hit.....hit......hit....throw dust in eyes........hit.....hit.....
Tank: shield bash....shield bash three times....hit.....hit....bash.....
Mage: ........spell..............spell..............spell that messes up the team.......point staff and hit enemy with spell

In other words it was all verrrrrrrry slllllloooooooooowwwwwww.

DA2 combat needed some adjustments but it was leagues better. Especially for a mage. I love using the staff...well...like a staff. I've always had a love of pole weapons.

[Dubozz]

I played DA2 on PC (insanity) and i thought combat was quite good. There were tactcs and oneshoting rogues, friendly fire, tanking, cross class combos etc. About the speed: I thought two handed weapon warriors shoud hit a bit slower, others? not so much. Enemy waves was annoyng but it was removed in DLCs. I don't think we will see them again. Overall i liked da2 combat much more then dao.

[Renmiri1]

Jones7602 wrote...

** snip **. I really like that combat has become faster, flashier and in general more exciting. The major flaws for me are:

1 - 5 *** snipped since I agree w/ them **

6) Overdone awesomeness: The game feels very much like a manga because every character can do impossible things like running at the speed of light in full plate over a battefield, jump 50 feet into the air, magically enhancing the length of the sword, throw enemies arround... all this stuff is simply overdone for a "serious" RPG. Basically Bioware has to decide, what they want to do and who they want to please.You can't cater BG fans the same way as WoW fans.

7) Lacking tactic settings: I can pretty much setup a tactic like "if your enemy starts clipping his nails, attack him with you scissors of doom". A simple "move out of the way of charging wyverns" or "don't stand in the way of your warriors special attacks" is impossible.

#6 I disagre.. I loved the manga aspect of it. Coupled with the manga like art style it really made the game fun. Was like being in a "manga world". all that was missing was the bad subtitles and the overly emotional japanese voice acting. 

#7 - I could care less, my tactics was usually, "use potion if health under 50%" and "assist tank". I'm a WoW button masher and like to personally control my attacks, not make a little code like subroutine for battle. But funny you mention "clipping toenails" since that is what WoW Cataclysm last boss battle was. We battle Deathwing's feet 

[Renmiri1]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Origins was more... realistic though, in terms of combat mechanics. Have you ever actually TRIED to lift a 2 Handed Weapon? Those ****ers are HEAVY and VERY DIFFICULT TO SWING, let alone do half the **** Fenris and Carver were doing.

renjility wrote...

Funny how some people consider the speed of DA2 an improvement. In my opinion it is too fast. You have no oversight. So much is happening at once. In DAO I regularly paused to issue tactics

So much is happening at once

Also known as "the heat of battle", "the fog of war", etc.. No enemy EVER will let you stop get your bearings, fill your potions stock, rune, enchant, repair stuff, heal allies... 

Pausing during battle =/= Realistic Battles

DAO was completely immersion breaking to me as are all turn based combat games and any game that allows pausing right before or during battle.

Thank heavens both DAO and DA2 let me turn that **** off!

Modifié par Renmiri1, 21 avril 2013 - 08:05 .

[n0na90]

The way combat -looks- is the biggest turn-off for me. It looks ridiculous. I don't want DA to be JRPG.

Modifié par n0na90, 21 avril 2013 - 08:20 .