196 réponses à ce sujet

[sandboxgod]

Strikman you make more and more sense too me. I'll have to give that playstyle a try

[Original Twigman]

sandboxgod wrote...

Strikman you make more and more sense too me. I'll have to give that playstyle a try

fyi, there is a learning curve to get the flow right

[FlowCytometry]

Contribution to the team plays a smaller role in determining which character is better than another. Its not relevent.

Even solo you benefit from the debuff personally. That gets amped as you add more players. I don't see how its irrelevant.

Italicized: What does this even mean? "you love the claymore but ain't putting it on everything".... what does that have to do with determining which is better? nothing. crossing that out.

Underscore: i don't understand what you are saying.... what i think you are saying is "you can kill as fast just using the claymore, if not faster than using SS"

well.... yeah... when did i say you couldn't?

If you even agree that just using the Claymore is better, then you missed the point of the underlined. Why continue with this if you aren't convinced otherwise?

The point of SS/Claymore is that you can do this

TC + Claymore shot = kill one mook/elite enemy, this will take off TC (damage boost evo)
You can immediately SS before your cooldown prevents it and take out another enemy at the same time (which will be faster than reload canceling the claymore, especially depending on distance)
During your SS, your claymore automatically reloads and you can shoot again to take out another enemy...

thats 3 enemies within seconds... thats stupid good

Replacing one SS w/ one weapon kill in return for more risk doesn't strike me as way better, esp when she doesn't really need help killing lesser mobs as is and can nab 3 kills per cloak ideally anwyays. Yes, its conditional, but so is what you described.

It makes her better when she's better off not SSing, cause of the dmg TC evo, but that's not really your argument..

[Original Twigman]

[quote]FlowCytometry wrote...

[quote]Contribution to the team plays a smaller role in determining which character is better than another. Its not relevent.[/quote]


well.... yeah... when did i say you couldn't?[/quote]
If you even agree that just using the Claymore is better, then you missed the point of the underlined. Why continue with this if you aren't convinced otherwise?

[/quote]

you are misinterpreting what i said. You are comparing the claymore and SS in isolation, which the claymore is better... yet you do not use them in isolation with the shadow.... its two different things.

I got the point, i think you missed it.

[ryoldschool]

The fact that you believe that the shadow is better concentrating on sniper rifles than SS means that the designers failed with this kit. The whole design of the passive and fitness was to work with SS. If I want a sniper build there is the gi or si.

[Miniditka77]

ka243 wrote...

Miniditka77 wrote...

ka243 wrote...

Very fun with bonus power and duration cloak. Anyone who thinks shadow sucks and hasnt tried this really should. Cloak > ss > ss > win, much faster than cloak > ss > cloak...
 I run 3 in es and 5 in fitness cause last rank doesnt help ss.

eslash is quite useful for escorts

Uh.... they fixed this a while ago.  Flame Sword is now one of the best things you can do for SS, and it makes the Shadow decently effective against all boss enemies except Atlases and Praetorians.

I always take ES R3 for escorts and hacks, and also for softening up groups of enemies.  With Bonus Power, you can fire a SS into a group of mooks, which is a great setup for the barrage of shotgun fire that is going to follow.

really? Good to know.  I was using peddro's thread here as a reference... http://social.biowar...855086#13863413 was this part of a balance change? Patch?

It was a patch several months ago.  It was always intended to work, but it didn't originally.

[FlowCytometry]

I got the point, i think you missed it.

If you say so.

I just don't see the point in extolling a way to make her a bit (though much less safely) better at something she already does well- mook assassinating- when the real benefit is having better dps for things you don't want to or can't SS.

Its more a commentary how the claymore can vastly improve most kits, but also homogenizes them.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic on the internet, but I think it actually is common knowledge around here that double-SS builds aren't the best way to play the Shadow (I'd def concede to that), but max killing efficiency isn't why I pick every kit, her included. The build just offers the least risk while keeping her flavor as a melee assassin infil, which people like regardless of effectiveness (and its still effective.. up until SS or melee in general isn't a good idea, cause this game overly punished melee specs imo).

(And for the record, to me the worst infil is the ES spammer Shadow, mostly cause of the troll factor though, but it doesn;t help that the TB detonate evo doesn't work either afaik)

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 22 avril 2013 - 09:07 .

[Necrotron]

I find it plenty survivable if you're hosting and take the Shield steal evolution on Shadow Strike. I prefer to mostly only play one while hosting to ensure that when I'm striking, I can actually get out of melee range when I hear a Phantom sword unsheath, or hit cover when I hear my shield gate kerplode.

It is tricky sometimes to make sure you're not Shadow Striking something that already has a bead on you, so when you decloak to strike, you get an elbow to the head, but the class isn't broken, by any means.

Modifié par Bathaius, 22 avril 2013 - 09:24 .

[Deerber]

ryoldschool wrote...

The fact that you believe that the shadow is better concentrating on sniper rifles than SS means that the designers failed with this kit. The whole design of the passive and fitness was to work with SS. If I want a sniper build there is the gi or si.

Kind of agreed. I wouldn't say they did a bad job though. She's not ill designed. They failed at making her a good SS platform because there's no way to make anything a good SS platform. SS sucks balls because of how teleport powers work in this game. It feels like it's glitched, almost.

Original Stikman wrote...

TC + Claymore shot = kill one mook/elite enemy, this will take off TC (damage boost evo)
You can immediately SS before your cooldown prevents it and take out another enemy at the same time (which will be faster than reload canceling the claymore, especially depending on distance)

Just to clarify... You can't actually reload a claymore faster in this way. You'll always have to wait for the reload time and use the reload cancel button at the right time. Timing is the same. The good thing is that you're actually putting off damage while you reload.

[Sacrificial Bias]

Precisely how much damage does SS do? I'm having a little trouble figuring it out. According to the Narida class builder, it does 3000 with a damage spec without consumables, but it doesn't factor in the Omni-Blade attachment(multiplicative), and I believe the armor damage evolution of sword master works for SS too, so that's about 6750 armor damage right there. Only thing I'm not sure of is the electrical damage, whether it's multiplicative or additive, because it sounds like I could potentially get 9000 damage per SS O_O.

[Original Twigman]

ryoldschool wrote...

The fact that you believe that the shadow is better concentrating on sniper rifles than SS means that the designers failed with this kit. The whole design of the passive and fitness was to work with SS. If I want a sniper build there is the gi or si.

This argument is invalid.

Anytime you say "sniper build X does A's Sniper build better" then you could say that about most of the kits.

Why play the drell vangaurd as a Spawn nuker? Asari Vanguard does it better (or visa versa)
Why play the volus engineer as a medic/debuffer? The volus adept does it better
Why play a melee-build krogan? The GI does melee better

.... Hell... the GI does almost everything better than any class.

I am not sure if you were addressing me when i said "Shadow can be a better sniper than the QI," but if you were, you would be mistaken to assume that I suggested that a sniper build should overide the utility of SS. You can still SS frequently and get Sniper usage when SS isn't better... Hell, wouldn't a Sniping/SS'ing Shadow be the best shadow for Reapers due to the risk of Brute/Ravager Shadow Striking?

[Original Twigman]

Deerber wrote...

Just to clarify... You can't actually reload a claymore faster in this way. You'll always have to wait for the reload time and use the reload cancel button at the right time. Timing is the same. The good thing is that you're actually putting off damage while you reload.

I stated that a SS following a TC CLaymore shot (killing 1), will kill a 2nd oppoenet faster than reload cancelling and shooting the claymore again (say, with another infiltrator), especially if the distance is quite far; not taking into account the higher chance of missing a claymore shot than missing an SS (getting knocked out of it)

[FlowCytometry]

Original Stikman wrote...

I am not sure if you were addressing me when i said "Shadow can be a better sniper than the QI," but if you were, you would be mistaken to assume that I suggested that a sniper build should overide the utility of SS. You can still SS frequently and get Sniper usage when SS isn't better... Hell, wouldn't a Sniping/SS'ing Shadow be the best shadow for Reapers due to the risk of Brute/Ravager Shadow Striking?

yeah. Pure SS builds vs. Reapers are pretty bad after the first few waves.

[ryoldschool]

Original Stikman wrote...


I am not sure if you were addressing me when i said "Shadow can be a better sniper than the QI," but if you were, you would be mistaken to assume that I suggested that a sniper build should overide the utility of SS. You can still SS frequently and get Sniper usage when SS isn't better... Hell, wouldn't a Sniping/SS'ing Shadow be the best shadow for Reapers due to the risk of Brute/Ravager Shadow Striking?

i am saying the design failed if you ignore SS as your main offense because the kit skills are centered around SS.  Against cerberus the SS build destroys - you can take out anything other than an atlas with one hit ( and before the non atlas SS bug you could do major damage to atlases ).  Against reapers and collectors its too risky, IMO.  To have to resort to a sniper build looks like a failure in design to me. There are other characters to snipe with ( and better ), but only one character with SS.  They just botched it, IMO.

Modifié par ryoldschool, 23 avril 2013 - 02:38 .

[bondiboy]

She wont be at the top of the scoreboard with a team of high DPS characters but she is a lot of fun to play, particularly v Cerberus. Dragoons, phantoms marauders (and turrets with care) are easy prey for her and decapitation v Collectors make her one of those characters that synthesise well with any team.
The only infiltrator that you would consider taking duration with so also can be great for device and upload objectives . I prefer her over HI and QFI but that is just a matter of playstyle.

[scoopapa1]

Original Stikman wrote...

This is kind of a silly debate

1) you have people saying she is the worst infiltrator.... compared to who and what kind of infiltrator?

If you strap a shotgun or talon to your infiltrator, then the QI and the Base Human inilftrators are not as good as the Shadow.

Why? Because:

A) She has TC, which has the damage evo, which people tend to forget. If she has the damage evo, then a shotgun will do as much damage as any other infiltrator (save for the AIU).

She gets speed bonuses. a 10% speed bonus is more important for a shotgun infiltrator, therefore makes her better than the QI and Base Infil here.

C) Claymore + SS out of a damage cloak = 2 extremely high powered damage sources (if you can get the SS within 2.5 sec. This also automatically reloads your claymore, so you can get

so you get 1)Claymore out of Damage cloak, 2) SS out of damage cloak (sometimes), and 3) Another claymore shot, all within a few seconds.

D) SS and ES give her more crowd control/versatility than a QI/Base human.

2) Bonus Power/SS/Duration Shadow Infiltrator is noob stuff, people. Its a FOOs strategy on a kit that can evolve from it.
Take damage on TC and she can beat out some of her Infiltrator counterparts.

She can carry a BIG gun... use it.

Duration/BonusPower/SS Shadow Infiltrator is the worst infiltrator in the game.

This.  The shadow isn't some oddball character like the Jugg or something, you can approach it like you do the other Infiltrators, using it to shoot stuff with the other spells for support.  Her Drell-like agility and great Melee attacks suit a shotgun inf. perfectly.  ES is not a bad power either, it suits her in pretty much every situation where Cloak->Shotgun->Reload Cancel isn't appropriate, including when you need to retreat to regen shields, and battles beyond the range of your shotgun (if you take the 30 m version).  Some people may sneer at your contention that versatility is a selling point, but "always accentuate, never compensate" is more of a mindset for going from noob to veteran than one for going from veteran to expert.  The shadow does well-rounded well.

Modifié par scoopapa1, 23 avril 2013 - 02:55 .

[Tallgeese_VII]

OP says she is too squishy for melee...
which is hard proof that he is not playing Shadow right..

[koschwarz74]

landylan wrote...

koschwarz74 wrote...

landylan wrote...

Way too squishy for melee. Shadow strike sucks. It's only good quality is that it can one hit phantoms when it's fully specced out. It's abilities don't compliment TC at hardly. Bleh.

disagree.

[color=rgb(255, 0, 0)">don't melee with her. and i bet you specced her wrong (like damage of TC rank4, and sniper damage on rank6, and you carry a sniper rifle...). we have at least 6 infiltrator for sniper rifles...why would you use her for that when she is a cool chick with sword, SHE ]use like a sword-wielder.[/color]

cloak, shadow strike (no need for any of the shield stealing or DR evo at all), kill, wait a little, shadow strike, kill, wait a little, cloak, shadow strike...

i don't understand you, people. probably she is one of the very few, if not the one, that can one-hit a phantom...and you say she sucks. OMG.

Contradiction? Players who only shadow strike suck. Are you go to shadow strike that atlas to death with disciple with an omni-blade?

sure, of course you need to melee with her a lot. but when you wrote she is too squshy for melee, i assumed you do it wrong. sure she is squishy if you want to melee an enemy face to face. you want to cloak before, and you won't be seen and get the melee damage bonus.

i use effectively all 3 powers and the melee of course. i can play with this kit, you say you can't....sorry, but your opinion is not authoritative to me.

Modifié par koschwarz74, 23 avril 2013 - 06:47 .

[joker_jack]

Talon is one of the best guns for the Shadow. Good range, Barrier/Shield damage, and bypassing shield gate. It takes care of the missing link when you're not ss'ing or meleeing. 

OP Certain Things in this kit are by default a must, Like the melee evo 5 of tc. You need to be smart in how you use SS. Even Electric Slash has some utility to it if you know how and when to use it.  If you can't use this, stick with a gi, aiu, or tgi.

Modifié par joker_jack, 23 avril 2013 - 07:01 .

[Uutoqq]

Uutoqq wrote...

ok thanks, yeah I have a duration/bonus power cloak, so I'll see if the cooldown between 2 SS in one cloak doesn't impact my playstyle too much if I'm carrying a Wraith or Piranha

so I duo'd a London/Cerb/Gold game with a juggy yesterday, with the wraith. There were 2 other pugs, one was a melee/arc pistol shadow. It didn't go well for him/her because phantoms aren't very impressed by light melee. The other was a human vanguard, barely saw him because he was always busy being dead.

Anyway, I didn't feel the CD difference so the weight penalty is probably bugged. I'll try adding the high velocity barrel tonight. It was great being able to actually do some damage to the atlases.

In the end the juggy had a higher score than me by 5k because yes I'm playing a noob shadow with duration and power evo but I can't manage to give a **** because I could do all the objectives, run in no time to the upper bridge where the juggy was camping whenever he went down, and have tons of fun running around the map SLOWLY  taking everything down while staying invisible 90% of the time . That's how I love to play. If you prefer making her yet another claymore or BW/javelin platform, pls have fun doing that, I personally find those guns terribly boring so I'll stick with my inefficient, worst-infiltrators-ever the SS shadow and the huntress. As long as they allow me to carry gold pugs while having fun, that's all I need.

[landylan]

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

OP says she is too squishy for melee...
which is hard proof that he is not playing Shadow right..

If you're using the shadow's light or heavy melee, you're wasting your time. You kill mooks faster by shooting them in the head, and it's safer because it takes forever to exit the melee animation.

[DcIhNaGv3z]

I spec out of the shadow strike... or put only 3 points since the last point in fitness is not that helpful.

The geth scanner + electric slash is good.