307 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonShepard]

Sauruz wrote...

Ach. Alright, ME3's just a very, very grimdark game. I'll still say a nihilist would have more fun with the game than anyone else.
Would you at least agree that the endings could be considered nihilistic from a western point of view, since holding on to western principles (freedom, right of self-determination, etc) gets a large majority (if not the entirety) of the galaxy wiped out?

Hmm. Interesting. I classify myself as an anti-nihilist (see here - warning, TvTropes page, don't blame me if you lose three hours...), which means I accept a nihilist's perspective, but reach the conclusion that this is a reason to be as nice as possible to other people.

And I did enjoy ME3.

I enjoyed being the beacon of hope in a grim-dark war. I enjoyed having Shepard push on despite layers of despair, clinging to the tiniest shred of hope, and when even that hope was sundered, just carrying on because there was no reason not to.

So you might have something there - in that I share a nihilist's POV, and did enjoy the game, somewhat because of it. Just a thought.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 21 avril 2013 - 04:38 .

[TurianRebel212]

All the DLC, except Citadel DLC, was over rated and over priced. I like Leviathan, I'd say top 5 or 6 DLC's of the series, but worth `15 bucks???? No. Omega was an unpolished glitch fest and laughably short, took me 2 in a half hours on insanity- one of the worst DLC's of the series. From Ashe's=day 1 DLC...... Nuff said.

Many have said and believe that Leviathan and From Ashes are essential to the main narrative of ME3 and should have been included. DAY 1. But Bioware was hell bent on selling us their unfinished product piece by piece. A learning experience for me. Won't buy anymore BW products and I hope others follow suit as well.

ME3 has 4 pieces of DLC.... The cost is 55 dollars. Basically as much as the vanilla game. If you play all the DLC on insanity I'd say you get probably 10 hours of content. Maybe. That's just weak.

[SpamBot2000]

So, it's all been a great love-fest between BW and "the fans" for the past year, eh?

There is no realzies in this blog whatsoever. It's warping the very fabric of reality. I suspected Honest Mike Gamble could do Doublethink Newspeak like a Champ, but damn!

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 21 avril 2013 - 05:18 .

[Big Bad]

TurianRebel212 wrote...

All the DLC, except Citadel DLC, was over rated and over priced. I like Leviathan, I'd say top 5 or 6 DLC's of the series, but worth `15 bucks???? No. Omega was an unpolished glitch fest and laughably short, took me 2 in a half hours on insanity- one of the worst DLC's of the series. From Ashe's=day 1 DLC...... Nuff said.
 

I think you're more-or-less right to complain, but for what it's worth, Leviathan cost $10, not $15.

[johnj1979]

Is this for real or is just a bad joke. I think it shows just out of touch they are.

Omega was a good DLC and the "Attack of the Clone" part of the Citadel was good, but that was it.

Mass Effect 3, the Extended Cut, Leviathan and the rest of the Citadel DLC was awful.

There did seem much in the way of multiplayer DLC.

What was with the pricing Multiplayer free, but singleplayer was over priced for what it was.

So what is he on and can I have some?

Modifié par johnj1979, 21 avril 2013 - 05:31 .

[MegaSovereign]

How hectic the DLC cycle was really only shows that the game could have used an extra half-year of development. If nothing else, the Extended Cut is indicative of this.

[Iakus]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Citadel is fan service that sacrifices good storytelling - it's a goofy wink-fest designed to satiate those who care more about hanging out with their imaginary friends than they do narrative coherence. In short, it's poop.

I think it was deliberately set up to be silly, and goofy so all the p*ssed off fans (who, of course, don't actually exist, the Secret Data proves that) can come away from ME3 with a happy feeling.  Thus they'll be more receptive to the idea of buying ME games in the future.

Essentially, now that they burned down the franchise and alkienated a large segment of their fanbase, they gave (for $15) fans a bouquet of flowers and a card saying "But we're still friends, right?"

[Dean_the_Young]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

snip

Whatever you say Dean and, since we are in wisdom dispensing mood, may I humbly suggest that you pick your wickets a little more carefully when talking about the incongruity of a piece of DLC that plays like a bizzaro soap opera, complete with evil twin, hackneyed in jokes, tenuous plot and tired caricatures?

Sure you can. Freedom of speech and all that.

Now, that doesn't mean what you say is that relevant to the truth, now...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's called choosing the best of bad options, and being able to determine and decide such is a key aspect of both morality and responsibility.

And what if the game sets things up in such a way as to require and celebrate the 'virtue' of inflicting huge acts of arbitrary violence (you know, like the ending to ME3)?

Then it's a grim setting. The idea that stories, or the world, need to give you options that provide solutions that nicely correlate to your preferred morality is quaint, but unrealistic and unreasonable unless you are the one who dictates the premise of the world.

[MegaSovereign]

That's a lot of conjecture. So even good DLC is only an elaborate attempt to trick "pissed-off fans" into buying their products? The lengths that people will go to in order to antagonize Bioware is very strange indeed.

iakus, the fact that the DLC was sold for a premium basically means that it wasn't damage control DLC. That was the EC, which was free.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sauruz wrote...

Ach. Alright, ME3's just a very, very grimdark game. I'll still say a nihilist would have more fun with the game than anyone else.
Would you at least agree that the endings could be considered nihilistic from a western point of view, since holding on to western principles (freedom, right of self-determination, etc) gets a large majority (if not the entirety) of the galaxy wiped out?

No.

For one thing, those principles when overblown into absolutes aren't what we practice in Western cultures. For another, if you factor that refusing to make a choice is a choice, there is no way to address a choice of such magnitude that doesn't infringe on absolutist holdings of freedom and self-determination. The consequences of your choice alone dictate that.

Western liberalism isn't about the refusal of any infringements on freedom or self-determination (if we did, the whole system would fall apart rather quickly), but rather how we managed the decision-making processes that do make such infringements as a matter of policy.

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

That's a lot of conjecture. So even good DLC is only an elaborate attempt to trick "pissed-off fans" into buying their products? The lengths that people will go to in order to antagonize Bioware is very strange indeed.

When this final DLC is so drastically altered in tone and theme after so many months of complaints at how dark the endings were even after EC?  Yeah, it's speculation, but pretty reasonable.

iakus, the fact that the DLC was sold for a premium basically means that it wasn't damage control DLC. That was the EC, which was free.

Just because it wasn't free doesnt mean it wasn't damage control.  EC was not universally accepted by a longshot, whatever the rewritten history says.  This was Bioware's last chance to get people to come away from ME3 with a positive feeling.  They'll aready have an uphill battle convincing people to come back for MEWhatever  If they can get people to come away from ME3 with a smile, even if it's just a DLC, that will make marketing's job that much easier down the line.

Edit:  And keep in mind, I liked Citadel.  But I also recognize it for what it is.

Modifié par iakus, 21 avril 2013 - 05:50 .

[BitBasher]

I enjoyed the Citadel DLC... a LOT! I've grown attached to the characters since ME1 and on a recent ME3 play-thru (after doing The Party) I changed Shep's final choice because of how I felt about my team; The Party really cemented some good feelings.

I didn't think the party was out-of-place either. If *I* was going off with a team to save the galaxy (and probably die in the process) I certainly wouldn't mind an insane bender one last time before shipping out.

My only gripe with the DLCs is I really wanted to be able to go to Omega after completing the DLC - I liked music and atmosphere in Afterlife.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

That's a lot of conjecture. So even good DLC is only an elaborate attempt to trick "pissed-off fans" into buying their products? The lengths that people will go to in order to antagonize Bioware is very strange indeed.

When this final DLC is so drastically altered in tone and theme after so many months of complaints at how dark the endings were even after EC?  Yeah, it's speculation, but pretty reasonable.

iakus, the fact that the DLC was sold for a premium basically means that it wasn't damage control DLC. That was the EC, which was free.

Just because it wasn't free doesnt mean it wasn't damage control.  EC was not universally accepted by a longshot, whatever the rewritten history says.  This was Bioware's last chance to get people to come away from ME3 with a positive feeling.  They'll aready have an uphill battle convincing people to come back for MEWhatever  If they can get people to come away from ME3 with a smile, even if it's just a DLC, that will make marketing's job that much easier down the line.

Edit:  And keep in mind, I liked Citadel.  But I also recognize it for what it is.

Your argument is entirely based on the premise that the large majority of fans absolutely loathed ME3. On BSN, it's blasphemy to argue otherwise but I'm afraid that it is getting tiresome to argue from this limited perspective.

Your assumptions aren't reasonable because your premise isn't logically consistent with what the Citadel DLC actually was. If Bioware believed that they needed to get people to forgive them for the ending, they would have cut the middleman and released more alternate ending DLC. Period. That's exactly the pattern we saw with the ending controversy and everything leading up to the Extended Cut.

It's honestly more reasonable to assume that Bioware Edmonton always intended for the last and final piece of Mass Effect content they'll ever develop would be a swan song for them.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 21 avril 2013 - 06:04 .

[johnj1979]

The best and looks will always be the best for DLC is the DLC for Mass Effect 2 (expect for The Arrival)

Bioware had a year to close the stories of Mass Effect and fix Mass Effect 3 and they didn't do anything with it. Instead they just released DLC that asks even more questions.

I think the DLC for Mass Effect 2 were better story (except for The Arrival) and better value for money than the DLC for Mass Effect 3.

[Dubozz]

anorling wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

I really hope they will see Citadel DLC's success as a sign people prefer Mass Effect as a fun space adventure with a focus on characters rather than a depressingly grim nihilistic Nietzschean abyss.
Eh, who am I kidding? As long as there's Multiplayer it won't make a difference.

You're probably right

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Your argument is entirely based on the premise that the large majority of fans absolutely loathed ME3. On BSN, it's blasphemy to argue otherwise but I'm afraid that it is getting tiresome to argue from this limited perspective.

Your assumptions aren't reasonable because your premise isn't logically consistent with what the Citadel DLC actually was. If Bioware believed that they needed to get people to forgive them for the ending, they would have cut the middleman and released more alternate ending DLC. Period. That's exactly the pattern we saw with the ending controversy and everything leading up to the Extended Cut.

It's honestly more reasonable to assume that Bioware Edmonton always intended for the last and final piece of Mass Effect content they'll ever develop would be a swan song for them.

I have never said "majority" But a large segment (not necessarilly a majority) do loathe what was done in ME3.  And another segment shrugged and went "It still sucks, but at least I have closure now" This is hardly the stuff of repeat business.  

Why alternate ending DLC wasn't released?  We may never know.  My guess (and it's only a guess) is that they expended all the resources they could spare on EC, figuring (incorrectly) that people would love their endings if only they weren't so confused about them.  When it was only partly successful, there was no longer the time nor the money to work up alternate endings.  So now all they can do is end things on a happy note and pretend there was never a problem.

[Mr.House]

johnj1979 wrote...

The best and looks will always be the best for DLC is the DLC for Mass Effect 2 (expect for The Arrival)

Bioware had a year to close the stories of Mass Effect and fix Mass Effect 3 and they didn't do anything with it. Instead they just released DLC that asks even more questions.

I think the DLC for Mass Effect 2 were better story (except for The Arrival) and better value for money than the DLC for Mass Effect 3.

-Zaeed: Was mostly crap, just another squadmate to an already big rooster who didn't have proper conversations and the LM was pretty crappy. Though Robin so points there.
-Kasumi:Good mission, but suffers the same issue as Zaeed
-FIrewalker:Waste of time and pure crap
-Overlord:Good action focused adventure(Like Omega)
-LOTSB:Second best dlc Bioware has done
-Arrival:Crap

ME3:
-Javik:Fantastic companion, decent mission and he had lots of dialog.
-Leviathan:A solid dlc, lakcing in the gameplay area but good overall
-Omega:Good action pack dlc, that's it(Overlord beats it because Overlord was cheaper and more polished)
-Citadel:Best dlc Bioware has done.

Opinions for everyone

Modifié par Mr.House, 21 avril 2013 - 07:19 .

[Bleachrude]

I think ironically part of the problem is that the DLCs seem to well integrated into the plot that they feel like they should be there already...

Reading the blog, it's interesting to see how Leviathan came about....One of Leviathan's strengths is how well the rest of the squad interacts with you here giving the impression that it was always ther...from in-mission banter to after-mission talks with the rest of the squad, you get the sense it was supposed to be there...

But as per the blog, Leviathan wasn't started well after the game was out...ironically, I think this is why Omega is seen as weaker since we've come to expect having our teammates commenting on the mission...

(Seriously, archangel on omega? How could this not be rife with potential)

[AlanC9]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 The idea that stories, or the world, need to give you options that provide solutions that nicely correlate to your preferred morality is quaint, but unrealistic and unreasonable unless you are the one who dictates the premise of the world.

There are a couple of non-crazy versions of this argument.

One is that games in a setting where solutions don't correlate with preferred morality are simply unfun. This is more of a statement of personal taste than an argument.

The other is that games (and other media) serve a pedagogical function whether the creators wish them to or not, and it's irresponsible to show that an "immoral solution" may be the best course of action available. Sort of reverse Platonism; we need to keep the common folks in the cave, since if they ever got out and realized that our supposed moral truths are merely convenient rules-of-thumb they might not believe in them anymore.

(Unless you figure that's actually straight-up Platonism)

Modifié par AlanC9, 21 avril 2013 - 08:06 .

[Isichar]

Interesting post Dean, thanks for sharing.

[AlanC9]

Fandango9641 wrote...
Would an ending consistent with my overall experience across three games be too much to ask?

To ask for this? Not too much. To insist that you get this in every game ever? Too much. Only in every ME game? That's debatable. 

 I mean, if the game really must insist that I suddenly flip a switch and start role-playing an ignorant, egotistical monster to 'win' then it really shouldn't have encouraged me to role-play a morally virtuous Shep to that point, right? Well not unless the game was actually designed to be an exercise in disgruntled frustration. 

Depends on your definition of "win." If "win" = saving the galaxy, then you can do that without changing your role-playing unless you're RPing a Shepard who really would Refuse.

[spirosz]

MegaSovereign wrote...

How hectic the DLC cycle was really only shows that the game could have used an extra half-year of development. If nothing else, the Extended Cut is indicative of this.

[Uncle Jo]

Very interesting read. Thanks for posting it here.

I still have difficulties to buy the "Javik DLC being planned well after ME3" story. His interactions, banter and background story are too firmly tied to the main plot. He's also way more fleshed out than for example James. And he's Prothean. If only one new character had to be created for this episode, it would be him and no one else.

What is said about Leviathan DLC, confirms imo, that it was just a retro-active justification of the Starbrat's existence, made because of the outrage about the endings. I still believe that the orginal plot could have evolved about a rogue Reaper, not the so-called creators of th most stupid AI the galaxy has ever known.

Citadel DLC was great on many ways. Never laughed that much in a video-game. Having Wrex as squaddie again and all the others for the parody of the suicide mission, was very refreshing.
Imo it must be viewed as post-ending DLC and as a step from the devs towards the fans in order to bury the hatchet and get out of the depressive atmosphere which surrounded (and still surrounds ME3). Successful, at least partially.