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[Silfren]

Sir JK wrote...

The timeline stretches the first blight from -395 ancient to -203 ancient though. It's only in that first paragraph that it's one hundred years. Maybe it means 100 years after the wardens were founded? Since that number fits.

The statement is a clear and blunt "The Firs Blight lasted one hundred years," so there's no way to make it refer to only the time afte the Wardens came into existence. It's a direct contradicton of the -395 to -203 date we got from the Origins lore, so I'm not sure what you mean by "that number fits."

[Silfren]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

Speaking of Dwarves : How about  "The chantry doesn't think the dwarves were created by the Maker because they can't dream" bit (WAIT. WHAT?). I wonder how they explain dwarves, religion-wise.

The dwarves came from the stone like they themselves propose?

*shrug*

Anyways, whether they're of the maker or not is a contested issue. And dwarves do get normal dreams, but they don't get fade dreams, that is the key difference.

You're missing the point.  The Chantry claims that the dwarves weren't made by the Maker, but yet this is the religion that teaches that there is only one god, and he is the one who created all things. It's a fair question to ask, where exactly does the Chantry think they came from, and how do they fit it into their religious worldview?

It's an interesting idea.  Seems a bit like a shout-out to Tolkien.

Modifié par Silfren, 02 mai 2013 - 01:24 .

[MisterJB]

My book arrives today! Can't wait!

The Chantry has acknowledged the existence of other gods like the Old Gods, they just believe the Maker created them as well. I suppose it wouldn't be impossible for one of the Maker's most powerful creations to imitate Him and create life like in Tolkien lore where the dwarves were created by Aule, a primordial spirit, and not by Eru Iluvatar who is God with capital G.

[Herr Uhl]

Silfren wrote...

The Chantry claims that the dwarves weren't made by the Maker, but yet this is the religion that teaches that there is only one god, and he is the one who created all things

Not necessarily. They claim the maker made the world, not everything in it.

For example, the maker made "the stone", and "the stone" then made the dwarves. Similar to how many would argue that if we made sentient robots they wouldn't be children of the maker.

Eleinehmm wrote...

The direct quote from the book (p143, normal edition) - Because  no dwarven souls are found in the Fade, the Chantry claims  that the dwarves were not created by the Maker.  It  seems like this is the official Chantry stance on the issue. 
Hmm, it actually means that life can sort of pop into existence without the maker, and it sort of undermines the idea of the maker being THE supreme deity.  Also, why would you try to convert the dwarves since all of the

To you, my second-born, I grant this gift:
In your heart shall burn
An unquenchable flame
All-consuming, and never satisfied.
From the Fade I crafted you,
And to the Fade you shall return
Each night in dreams
That you may always remember me
 
Don’t apply to the dwarves. Can you actually turn away from the maker if you have never been facing the guy anyways ? 
 I love made up  theologies and enjoyed the Tevinter chantry section a great deal, it still seem strange that the chantry thinks that dwarves are more different from humans than say spirits from humans [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

The existence of Brother Burkel suggests that it is being debated. Some people in the chantry clearly believe that they are, why bother with spreading the chant to them otherwise?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 02 mai 2013 - 01:46 .

[Eleinehmm]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Chantry claims that the dwarves weren't made by the Maker, but yet this is the religion that teaches that there is only one god, and he is the one who created all things

Not necessarily. They claim the maker made the world, not everything in it.

For example, the maker made "the stone", and "the stone" then made the dwarves. Similar to how many would argue that if we made sentient robots they wouldn't be children of the maker.

Hmm, in that case what the hell is the Stone from the Chantry perspective ? What happen to the dwarves when they die ? etc. I wish there were more info on  this.

[Eleinehmm]

MisterJB wrote...

My book arrives today! Can't wait!

The Chantry has acknowledged the existence of other gods like the Old Gods, they just believe the Maker created them as well. I suppose it wouldn't be impossible for one of the Maker's most powerful creations to imitate Him and create life like in Tolkien lore where the dwarves were created by Aule, a primordial spirit, and not by Eru Iluvatar who is God with capital G.

Hmm, I do  recall  DG himself said that the Old Gods were not created by the Maker (I think it was right before the first game came out, on social Bioware, not on the old forums - Dragonagecentral, I miss you a lot.) . Then again, the book says that they are  "rebel spirits" (if you need a quote I will try to find it).
Plus the whole "Silence 3:6" is a dissonant verse for some reason, I do understand why the Chantry threw away the elf related verses, but why this ? Is it because of the "The first of My children, lost to night" part ?

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 02 mai 2013 - 01:54 .

[MisterJB]

Eleinehmm wrote...
Hmm, I do  recall  DG himself said that the Old Gods were not created by the Maker (I think it was right before the first game came out, on social Bioware, not on the old forums - Dragonagecentral, I miss you a lot.) . Then again, the book says that they are  "rebel spirits" (if you need a quote I will try to find it).
Plus the whole "Silence 3:6" is a dissonant verse for some reason, I do understand why the Chantry threw away the elf related verses, but why this ? Is it because of the "The first of My children, lost to night" part ?

What if the Taint is the night? Some sort of cosmic corruption that threatens to destroy all of creation? The Old Gods could have been the very first and most powerful spirits the Maker created and they were, willingly or not, corrupted by the Taint hence why the Maker imprisioned them. Because, despite being a threat, they were still His first children.
And the reason the Maker has withdrawn from the world is because He trapped Himself and the Taint in the Golden City so it couldn't destroy Thedas; hence why Corypheus claims the City was already blackened when they arrived; which was ruined when the Magisters invaded the City and created a path for the Taint into Thedas through their bodies.

"I am Dumat, first born of Aka-I mean, the Maker."

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 mai 2013 - 02:06 .

[Herr Uhl]

Eleinehmm wrote...

Hmm, in that case what the hell is the Stone from the Chantry perspective ? What happen to the dwarves when they die ? etc. I wish there were more info on  this. 

According to dwarves they go back into the stone. From the chantry perspective, I guess they're seen as similar to the death of an animal.

Eleinehmm wrote...

Hmm, I do  recall  DG himself said that the Old Gods were not created by the Maker (I think it was right before the first game came out, on social Bioware, not on the old forums - Dragonagecentral, I miss you a lot.) . Then again, the book says that they are  "rebel spirits" (if you need a quote I will try to find it). 
Plus the whole "Silence 3:6" is a dissonant verse for some reason, I do understand why the Chantry threw away the elf related verses, but why this ? Is it because of the "The first of My children, lost to night" part ?

I know the original post, I think it said "not of the Fade", but I'm not sure.

This is nifty for religious outlooks.

Have some about dwarves.

[Eleinehmm]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

Hmm, in that case what the hell is the Stone from the Chantry perspective ? What happen to the dwarves when they die ? etc. I wish there were more info on  this. 

According to dwarves they go back into the stone. From the chantry perspective, I guess they're seen as similar to the death of an animal.

Eleinehmm wrote...

Hmm, I do  recall  DG himself said that the Old Gods were not created by the Maker (I think it was right before the first game came out, on social Bioware, not on the old forums - Dragonagecentral, I miss you a lot.) . Then again, the book says that they are  "rebel spirits" (if you need a quote I will try to find it). 
Plus the whole "Silence 3:6" is a dissonant verse for some reason, I do understand why the Chantry threw away the elf related verses, but why this ? Is it because of the "The first of My children, lost to night" part ?

I know the original post, I think it said "not of the Fade", but I'm not sure.

This is nifty for religious outlooks.

Have some about dwarves.

Thanks for the links: It's hard to keep track of the old Lore posts.
1) On the subject of dwarves
Yes, I am familiar with the dwarven lore on the subject.  I was specifically  refering to the official chantry doctrine (and yes I remeber the chantry proselytism among the dwraves in the first game, thats why I thought the dwarves were counted as the created).

2) On the subject of the old gods, as per link

The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not
created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up
to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry,
they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who
ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that
this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City...

And yep, I do remeber the Not of the Fade part too (and I can't find it in the posts you have linked), might be the old forums things.

edit: Nwm, just bad wording on the editor's part

Pft,   the book timeline says that Old gods started wispering  from the Black City in the year -2800 Ancient.
Wait wasn't it Golden back then

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 02 mai 2013 - 03:05 .

[Herr Uhl]

Eleinehmm wrote...

Pft,   the book timeline says that Old gods started wispering  from the Black City in the year -2800 Ancient.
Wait wasn't it Golden back then

Might just be an editorial error, as it was supposedly golden back in the day.

[Eleinehmm]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

Pft,   the book timeline says that Old gods started wispering  from the Black City in the year -2800 Ancient.
Wait wasn't it Golden back then

Might just be an editorial error, as it was supposedly golden back in the day.

Yes,  most probably it is. 

[MisterJB]

My copy finally arrived so, I'm open to questions for those who don't have one.

[Eleinehmm]

MisterJB wrote...

My copy finally arrived so, I'm open to questions for those who don't have one.

Congratulations, have fun reading it

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 02 mai 2013 - 03:16 .

[azarhal]

Eleinehmm wrote...

Pft,   the book timeline says that Old gods started wispering  from the Black City in the year -2800 Ancient.
Wait wasn't it Golden back then

The Old Gods religion section sort of explain that one, pre-Maker Tevinter did not call it the Golden City. It's interesting to note that the Elves also believed their gods lived in the Fade, in the central section, but they called it the Eternal City.

[Eleinehmm]

azarhal wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

Pft,   the book timeline says that Old gods started wispering  from the Black City in the year -2800 Ancient.
Wait wasn't it Golden back then

The Old Gods religion section sort of explain that one, pre-Maker Tevinter did not call it the Golden City. It's interesting to note that the Elves also believed their gods lived in the Fade, in the central section, but they called it the Eternal City.

Yes, but I can't see it  being called black,  just the realm of the (old) gods.

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 02 mai 2013 - 03:29 .

[MisterJB]

Thanks.

Did you know that it was the advisor of the Nevarran King, a Tevinter mage, that extablished the process of mummification which increases the risk of corpse possession.
Calling it now, there is a plot afoot to ressurect an army of corpses beyond counting and it will probrably involve Cassandra in DAI, of whom there is a magnificiently detailed picture of, I might say.

Also, King Gaspar Pentaghast lived to be 127 years old which disproves the theory that just because Marethari lived more than a century, that must mean elves were immortal once. Humans can live to be very old too.

[Herr Uhl]

MisterJB wrote...

My copy finally arrived so, I'm open to questions for those who don't have one.

I'll re-ask my question from earlier in this thread then.

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Neromenian (first human tribe in Thedas , and ancient Tevinter) used to think their fallen heroes were reborn as dragons and worship them.It seems Dreamers (also ruler) met the old god in the fade ,and then people start worshipping them as dragons too.

If they thought their heroes became dragons, that could explain why Old Gods take the guise of dragons while having little else in common. Is there any indication on if they started the hero to dragon thing before encountering Old Gods?

[Merilsell]

Mine arrived too today. So pretty 

I also found a timeline error in WoT, considering the events of "The Calling" book, as I have elaborated here.

Guess it won't be the last >__>

Modifié par Merilsell, 02 mai 2013 - 03:34 .

[Eleinehmm]

MisterJB wrote...

Thanks.

Did you know that it was the advisor of the Nevarran King, a Tevinter mage, that extablished the process of mummification which increases the risk of corpse possession.
Calling it now, there is a plot afoot to ressurect an army of corpses beyond counting and it will probrably involve Cassandra in DAI, of whom there is a magnificiently detailed picture of, I might say.

Also, King Gaspar Pentaghast lived to be 127 years old which disproves the theory that just because Marethari lived more than a century, that must mean elves were immortal once. Humans can live to be very old too.

Yes, we will see mummies in the third game . 

Hmm, plus I think there will be involved in  the Tevinter politics, I found the fact that archon can't be selected from Magisterium or Chantry interesting. Basically you can't be king if you hold a post in s the Senate/ a chantry priest.

[Eleinehmm]

Herr Uhl wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

My copy finally arrived so, I'm open to questions for those who don't have one.

I'll re-ask my question from earlier in this thread then.

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Neromenian (first human tribe in Thedas , and ancient Tevinter) used to think their fallen heroes were reborn as dragons and worship them.It seems Dreamers (also ruler) met the old god in the fade ,and then people start worshipping them as dragons too.

If they thought their heroes became dragons, that could explain why Old Gods take the guise of dragons while having little else in common. Is there any indication on if they started the hero to dragon thing before encountering Old Gods?

Yes. The Old Gods are dragons because their heroes were counted as the dragons, not the heroes were dragons because the Old Gods were.

edit: Or at least the wording suggests so. Will find the direct quote.
edit: Here it is:
The Neromenian tribes, who had worshipped fallen heroes reborn as dragons, adopted Dreamers as their leaders, and began to instead worship the Dreamers' gods, also as dragons.

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 02 mai 2013 - 03:45 .

[MisterJB]

Herr Uhl wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

My copy finally arrived so, I'm open to questions for those who don't have one.

I'll re-ask my question from earlier in this thread then.

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Neromenian (first human tribe in Thedas , and ancient Tevinter) used to think their fallen heroes were reborn as dragons and worship them.It seems Dreamers (also ruler) met the old god in the fade ,and then people start worshipping them as dragons too.

If they thought their heroes became dragons, that could explain why Old Gods take the guise of dragons while having little else in common. Is there any indication on if they started the hero to dragon thing before encountering Old Gods?

Yes, page 121 and 121 (Religion) makes it plainly clear that the Neromenians worshipped fallen heroes reborn as dragons and when the first Dreamers claimed to have encountered a Realm of Gods (The Fade) and spoken to a God (Dumat), they worshipped the Old Gods as dragons as well.
However, the book also suggests that depicting the Old Gods as dragons was merely the notion of the neromenians; that is; Dumat did not reveal himself as a dragon which does bring into question why the Archdemons are dragons if they are, indeed, the Old Gods.

[MisterJB]

Also, the first humans claimed to have ben driven from their home by a "shadow goddess".
Flemeth? Maybe she pursued the humans and has been working for centuries to finish what she started and kill every single last one of us.

[Eleinehmm]

MisterJB wrote...

Also, the first humans claimed to have ben driven from their home by a "shadow goddess".
Flemeth? Maybe she pursued the humans and has been working for centuries to finish what she started and kill every single last one of us.

Us? Wait, I am a dwarf, why should I care

And yes, the first couple of pages were part of the free preview, so this Shadow godess thingy speculation has been on for more then a month

[MisterJB]

I've been trying not to spoil myself. Are there other theories beyond Flemeth and natural disaster?

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 mai 2013 - 03:55 .

[Vespasian 91]

WardenWade wrote...

Rebellion99 wrote...

azarhal wrote...

I got my book!!!!

I think the most interesting part was where Andraste's betrayal happened: Nevarra city-state (it was one of their stronghold). Said Nevarra was given to one of Maferath's sons after she was killed too. hmm. I find it interesting that they don't called Maferath's sons as being Andraste's.

Nevarra also happen to be where the Nevarran accord was signed a bit less than 2 centuries later. Oh and the Inquisition is called Seekers of Truth in text at less once (I'm not talking codex/timeline, but the text stuff).

There is also a mention that the "Tevinter's mage started the Blight" propaganda was propagated by the Chantry after the Third Blight to increase anti-mage and anti-Tevinter sentiments. This is interesting I think...

@Rebellion99
There's a lots of page on the Dwarves/Orzammar you know, most of it seems already known stuff too (I didn't read it all the way). There is some information about Kal Sharok, looks like they do trades, but no mention of surface access. Also, hints of them being tainted ghouls. Their inner castes system is also more equal than Orzammar and they are nicer dwarves.

No other thaigs mentioned beside those in Origins and Awakening.

Intresting thank you,
Cloud the kal Sharok Dwarves be the mysterious warden allies?

That's an interesting idea.  Coincidentally, in an anecdotal WOT sidebar called called "Trading with Kal Sharok," the narrator mentions how meeting with a Kal Sharok dwarf makes him think of Grey Wardens and their prey for reasons he can't explain.  Perhaps many are "accidental Grey Wardens," like Ruck? 

I could be worng considerin I havent played DA 2 in a long time, but dont we find out about the warden alies if we keep the Architect alive?

This could mean that they take the taint in intentionally and are on he side of the Architect like Utha was.
Wich is even more intresting considering I had a thoery like this once but disgarded it becues I thought it to silly and I couldint see the Orzammar Dwarves having anything to do with them, and it being more likey that they just chucked the cast system out so as to fight the darkspawn better.

Modifié par Rebellion99, 11 décembre 2013 - 04:29 .