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[Senya]

^^

In the Gauntlet, his ghost implies that he was jealous that she was the Maker's spiritual wife. "I loved her too. But what man, can compare to a god?"

Which, off-topic, I think legitimizes the Gauntlet and the Urn of Sacred Ashes. None of the characters there would have been taught that. Chantry dogma only says he was jealous of her power and influence.

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

So it sounds like the elves might be the next to try and break into the Golden/Black City. Don't do it! 

It might be more beneficial to go where Morrigan went to. It seemed like she had a plan to change the world and gain power from the place "beyond this world and beyond the Fade".

Youth4Ever wrote...

You'd need a lot of lyrium-- which they probably can't get because the Tevinter Imperium used up most of it when they breached the Golden City-- so your only option is blood magic. Conveniently, blood magic is the only magic known to extend life, perhaps grant immortality... and that with the revelation blood magic becomes more powerful with violence and death leads me to believe the original Dalish who wanted to reclaim the secrets of Arlathan wanted the Orlesian Empire destroyed for some very sinister. selfish reasons when they watched the Blight roll in and when they attacked Orlais at Red Crossing.

The Orlesian Empire was created because Drakon was invading his neighbors and imposing his particular Cult of Andraste. It's noted Drakon couldn't conquer the Free Marches because of his problems with the Dales. Given how the Dales wanted to keep their sovereignty and the right to worship their own gods, I think that would explain the Dales not helping their enemy.

Youth4Ever wrote...

The violence and death a Blight would cause is like a hole in one for national immortality and breaking into the Golden/Black City. And Red Crossing was brutal beyond imagination according the Orlesians... When the Blight didn't provide their avenue, I guess they decided to roll up their sleeves and do the dirty work themsleves. And didn't the Chantry claim the Dalish were using blood magic?

The Orlesian version claimed there were rumors of human sacrifice, and that the war started because the elves attacked Red Crossing unprovoked, while the Dalish (and possibly the elven Warden) blame the Chantry for starting the war by invading the Dales with their templars because the elves wouldn't convert.

[rapscallioness]

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

In the Gauntlet, his ghost implies that he was jealous that she was the Maker's spiritual wife. "I loved her too. But what man, can compare to a god?"

Which, off-topic, I think legitimizes the Gauntlet and the Urn of Sacred Ashes. None of the characters there would have been taught that. Chantry dogma only says he was jealous of her power and influence.

no, actually the chantry tells that mafarath was jealous of the maker and andraste. most others think that he did it for the deal of territory.

as far as what they say in the gauntlet...interesting point. they would not have been taught that. hmm, i'll have to look that one up.

of course, it could just be a point of view abt andraste that they as followers already believed. and passed on to the andraste cult, then religion itself.

[Silfren]

rapscallioness wrote...

Harlequin2 wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

And Andraste didn't have 2 lovers fighting over her, etc.

Actually, they often talk about how her real husband and the Maker were in dispute. In the end the former (a general of some sort) betrayed her and had her killed rather than let her be married to the Maker. If that's not fighting over her then I don't know what is.

That's not to say that Flemeth is Andraste though. Flemeth sounds more like an Old God Baby (maybe the first) and there were those people who saw Andy's spirit in the fade.

My personal theory on Flemeth? Old God Baby and never knew it. The two lovers thing goes down and she asks for help. Ultra-demon realises what a steal this is (Possess an old god? Yes please!) and pushes the other spirits out of the queue to get into the body first. Flemeth goes bonkers but after the dust settles, realises what she is and learns to bend the demon to her will.
Probably not right, but it sounds fun and it fits for now.

wow. well, if we have an OGB now, i sure hope morrigan is giving it a heads up abt that kinda thing.

but what exactly does the dark ritual take to happen? a warden? anyone w/just enuff taint? who would be flemeth's...parents?

My first reaction is to say only a freshly tainted person is needed; Wardens are simply convenient, being more ready to hand than a random tainted person. 

Then again, since there's a magical component to the Wardens, making the taint stable, maybe Wardens specifically are required.

[rapscallioness]

who is this shadow goddess?

i hope we get to see kal'sharok and this grand necropolis. idk if we are, but i'd love that.

[MisterJB]

discosuperfly wrote...

Didn't Gaider already say somewhere that it wasn't possible for Flemeth to be Andraste because of some conflict in the time period in which the lived? 

Please, for the love of the Maker, the Stone, the Creators and the overgrown lizard gods, find the quote.

[Silfren]

discosuperfly wrote...

Didn't Gaider already say somewhere that it wasn't possible for Flemeth to be Andraste because of some conflict in the time period in which they lived?

Why? It never stopped him before. 

[Silfren]

almostinsane99 wrote...
In the Gauntlet, his ghost implies that he was jealous that she was the Maker's spiritual wife. "I loved her too. But what man, can compare to a god?"

Which, off-topic, I think legitimizes the Gauntlet and the Urn of Sacred Ashes. None of the characters there would have been taught that. Chantry dogma only says he was jealous of her power and influence.

One of my problems with this entire questline was the negative impact it had on ambiguity.  I thought most of Andraste's story was supposed to be left ambiguous so that players could draw their own conclusions about the Chantry's teachings and the overall question of the Maker.  Since we have that point hammered home again and again, I'm left to conclude that Bioware's writers dropped the lore ball a time or two, especially here. 

Then again, I remember that if you do this quest fairly early on, as a Dalish Warden, you meet a living Tamlen again later on, which kind of destroys the impact of meeting his allegedly dead spirit in the gauntlet, wherein he tells you you'll never meet again.  I think that, actually, was another case of writing not being thought through too well by the writers, as its rather jarring in its inconsistency.  But it does provide the option to conclude, as a Dalish anyway, that the whole Andraste cult is a sick joke.

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

In the Gauntlet, his ghost implies that he was jealous that she was the Maker's spiritual wife. "I loved her too. But what man, can compare to a god?"

Which, off-topic, I think legitimizes the Gauntlet and the Urn of Sacred Ashes. None of the characters there would have been taught that. Chantry dogma only says he was jealous of her power and influence.

Off-topic, Oghren explains the wall of lyrium is effecting the entire temple, including the ruins. It calls into question the validity of the mystical aspect of the quest.

On-topic, it's interesting to read more revelations about Nevarra and Tevinter. Has there been any word about the semi-permanent Dalish colony near Rivain?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 avril 2013 - 03:13 .

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

In the Gauntlet, his ghost implies that he was jealous that she was the Maker's spiritual wife. "I loved her too. But what man, can compare to a god?"

Which, off-topic, I think legitimizes the Gauntlet and the Urn of Sacred Ashes. None of the characters there would have been taught that. Chantry dogma only says he was jealous of her power and influence.

Off-topic, Oghren explains the wall of lyrium is effecting the entire temple, including the ruins. It calls into question the validity of the mystical aspect of the quest.

I have a hard time picturing this being the explanation for...what?  A group-wide delusion that we're being spoken to by the spirits of centuries-old dead people who were connected to Andraste?

On-topic, it's interesting to read more revelations about Nevarra and Tevinter. Has there been any word about the semi-permanent Dalish colony near Rivain?

There's a Dalish colony near Rivain?  Damn I can't wait to get my copy of the book.

Modifié par Silfren, 22 avril 2013 - 03:20 .

[LobselVith8]

Silfren wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Off-topic, Oghren explains the wall of lyrium is effecting the entire temple, including the ruins. It calls into question the validity of the mystical aspect of the quest.

I have a hard time picturing this being the explanation for...what?  A group-wide delusion that we're being spoken to by the spirits of centuries-old dead people who were connected to Andraste?

I don't think it's proof that the Maker exists, and it certainly didn't convince the non-Andrastian characters. If a very thick wall of lyrium was effecting the temple and the ashes, then I guess that's what the developers decided on.

Silfren wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

On-topic, it's interesting to read more revelations about Nevarra and Tevinter. Has there been any word about the semi-permanent Dalish colony near Rivain? 

There's a Dalish colony near Rivain?  Damn I can't wait to get my copy of the book. 

Gaider mentioned it on the old board.

[Palidane]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Off-topic, Oghren explains the wall of lyrium is effecting the entire temple, including the ruins. It calls into question the validity of the mystical aspect of the quest.

I have a hard time picturing this being the explanation for...what?  A group-wide delusion that we're being spoken to by the spirits of centuries-old dead people who were connected to Andraste?

I don't think it's proof that the Maker exists, and it certainly didn't convince the non-Andrastian characters. If a very thick wall of lyrium was effecting the temple and the ashes, then I guess that's what the developers decided on.

Yeah, I never really bought that. I know Lyrium is the magical phlebtonium of the Dragon Age world, but we have a solid idea of it's effects and abilities. When was Lyrium ever able to conjure an apparition that knows the deepest secrets and fears of four random people? Or bring back ghosts to tell of their past lives? Or make a perfect replica (both appearance and personality) of one random guy's most dearest loved one? Heck, we've always heard that Lyrium is super-dangerous and radioactive and it kills mages on contact etc etc. How would Lyrium radiation give some ashes supernatural healing abilities? It just doesn't add up.

Blame bad writing if you want, but as it stands I think the Gauntlet is the greatest evidence for the Maker's divinity.

Modifié par Palidane, 22 avril 2013 - 04:08 .

[Scarlet Rabbi]

Damn, my copy needs to come already!

[Silfren]

Palidane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Off-topic, Oghren explains the wall of lyrium is effecting the entire temple, including the ruins. It calls into question the validity of the mystical aspect of the quest.

I have a hard time picturing this being the explanation for...what?  A group-wide delusion that we're being spoken to by the spirits of centuries-old dead people who were connected to Andraste?

I don't think it's proof that the Maker exists, and it certainly didn't convince the non-Andrastian characters. If a very thick wall of lyrium was effecting the temple and the ashes, then I guess that's what the developers decided on.

Yeah, I never really bought that. I know Lyrium is the magical phlebtonium of the Dragon Age world, but we have a solid idea of it's effects and abilities. When was Lyrium ever able to conjure an apparition that knows the deepest secrets and fears of four random people? Or bring back ghosts to tell of their past lives? Or make a perfect replica (both appearance and personality) of one random guy's most dearest loved one? Heck, we've always heard that Lyrium is super-dangerous and radioactive and it kills mages on contact etc etc. How would Lyrium radiation give some ashes supernatural healing abilities? It just doesn't add up.

Blame bad writing if you want, but as it stands I think the Gauntlet is the greatest evidence for the Maker's divinity.

This is exactly my issue.  I know that lyrium is held up as an alternative explanation, but it never has made sense to me.  I do blame bad writing, because the writers have actually said that it's all supposed to be ambiguous enough so that all Chantry doctrines and dogmas can be countered with alternative explanations and vice versa, but the Urn of Sacred Ashes directly contradicts this.  "The lyrium did it" just doesn't hold water. 

I will concede that it doesn't convince Morrigan, or Sten, and presumably not Oghren, but nevertheless I don't understand how lyrium is supposed to explain spirits confirming Chantry doctrine or getting into the innermost thoughts of random people.

[Sir JK]

Just to play the devil's advocate for a minute... but we have very much seen lyrium do really crazy stuff. The big rotating statue thing and the anvil of the void in DA:O, rather strange things for a people that do not practise magic. The ghosts of the thaig in DA:A (granted, it's never outright said lyrium is behind it. But I doubt it's far away from any deposits)

And finally... red lyrium.

So we got ample of indication there's more to lyrium than meets the eye

[LobselVith8]

Palidane wrote...

Blame bad writing if you want, but as it stands I think the Gauntlet is the greatest evidence for the Maker's divinity. 

The fact that Morrigan, Leliana, Sten, Oghren, and the atheist Warden aren't even remotely convinced that the Maker exists after the events of the temple would call your assertion into question.

Regardless of the problems some have with Oghren's explanation, the quest disputes any idea of the temple being a sign of divinity by providing an alternative explanation for the healing properties of the ashes by pointing to the wall of lyrium actively effecting the temple and the ashes, as well as the fact that the 'spirits' don't motivate any non-Andrastian to second-guess their own views.

[Senya]

^^

That is true, but I feel it still does not hold water. The ghosts in the Gauntlet are more interactive than the ghosts in the Deep Roads. They are more memories and do not interact with you save when you loot the Legion of the Dead tomb. Maferath even goes on to act independently when you tell him you don't know the answer to his question, letting you pass.

And there is Leliana's resurrection if killed. I feel that no amount of lyrium can cure death. Not even Spirit Healer!Hawke or Anders can ressurect Pol after he's killed in Merrill's companion quest. I find it hard to believe any amount of lyrium could have ressurect Leliana if for no other reason than the fact that a bunch of Dwarves would be getting back up if killed in the Deep Roads or "returned to the Stone", which I take to be buried in tombs.

Even the Anvil of the Void and the rotating statue are limited. The Anvil of the Void cannot create life. Caridan confirms that he cannot bring back Branka after she's newly dead as a golem. And the rotating statue simply contains restless spirits who retain little or not sanity, unlike the spirits in the Gauntlet.

Even the Profane are not much more than manic feeders. Meredith does gain some measure of power, but it is limited to super strenth, jumping high, and operating statues. It then ends with Meredith turning into a statue.

And people do not easily second-guess or change their views. (Though, last I checked, Lelian believes in the Maker). Morrigan is stubborn, Oghren doesn't really care that much either way it seems, Sten has been indoctrinated into the Qun his whole life, and the atheist Warden is controlled by the player (though, he or she can be roleplayed as devout after the Gauntlet).

Many people don't change their views after reading Christian, Hindu, Islamic, Buddhist, atheist, animist, etc. works, but you are probably one of those listed and view said works fitting your beliefs/non-beliefs as genuine.

My point is that people don't easily change their minds, much less video game characters who are more or less set in stone. Sure, you can change them slightly, but Merrill is still Merrill, Sten is still Sten, etc.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Blame bad writing if you want, but as it stands I think the Gauntlet is the greatest evidence for the Maker's divinity. 

The fact that Morrigan, Leliana, Sten, Oghren, and the atheist Warden aren't even remotely convinced that the Maker exists after the events of the temple would call your assertion into question.

Regardless of the problems some have with Oghren's explanation, the quest disputes any idea of the temple being a sign of divinity by providing an alternative explanation for the healing properties of the ashes by pointing to the wall of lyrium actively effecting the temple and the ashes, as well as the fact that the 'spirits' don't motivate any non-Andrastian to second-guess their own views.

I'd like to agree, Lob, but I can't.  I'd prefer there to be a viable alternative theory to why things in the Gauntlet go down the way they do, but I can't make sense of lyrium as the go-to answer.  Above all, I do not accept the idea that lyrium, well-known for its monumentally destructive effects, could randomly impart pure healing properties to a pile of ash. 

[Silfren]

almostinsane99 wrote...

And there is Leliana's resurrection if killed. I feel that no amount of lyrium can cure death. Not even Spirit Healer!Hawke or Anders can ressurect Pol after he's killed in Merrill's companion quest. I find it hard to believe any amount of lyrium could have ressurect Leliana if for no other reason than the fact that a bunch of Dwarves would be getting back up if killed in the Deep Roads or "returned to the Stone", which I take to be buried in tombs.

Eh.  We're not told that Leliana was definitively killed, though.  (Please don't bring up the random aspect of her potential to be beheaded, as that is purely a gameplay visual). 

That whole scene is easily enough explained as Leliana having been left for dead, the Warden not, er, making sure of the matter before leaving.  At no point does lore tell us that she did die, only to be resurrected. 

[TEWR]

The more I think on the whole Inquisition whitewashing, the more I'm not too keen on it. I don't mind it being said "They weren't as bad as people like to believe" but I am changing my stance from "I'm fine" to "Seems slightly unrealistic."

By Genitivi's own words, people were blaming magic for everything. Logically, one would think some Inquisitors would be doing the very same thing and thus have a negative outlook. I accept the nature of the world now being chaotic and the Inquisitors trying to quell such chaos with order. That's a realistic depiction of events.

I don't mind the Inquisition being fair and just at some points, but to say it was wholly comprised of such people who were always fair and even-handed when the entire nature of the world has just collapsed from what people perceive to be the result of magic seems out of touch with reality if you ask me.

They wouldn't have a reputation of a reign of terror if they were so even-handed. At the very least, say they were extremely brutal to those they found guilty, whatever the party's affiliation, which would make the even-handedness have a reason for why they were seen in a poor light along with the idea of them helping some Mages -- which would also cast some points against them in the eyes of people who go "Magic! Cancerous magic!".

"Oh, they were fair to you before and during the trial, but Maker help you if you were found to be guilty."

Silfren wrote...

We're not told that Leliana was definitively killed, though.

Gaider said she did die, and how she was resurrected if you killed her remains to be seen.

Which, as days go by, I'm wondering if they even have anything at all.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 avril 2013 - 05:42 .

[Dio Demon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Gaider said she did die, and how she was resurrected if you killed her remains to be seen..

Huh, I thought he said only that Leliana was alive, I think he never directly said that she was dead.

[thats1evildude]

Eh, it's not really that different from the Order of the Silver Flame in Eberron, which carried out a crusade against a lycanthropy plague that was sweeping across the continent.

Certainly, the Order did do some terrible things — burning whole villages of innocent shifters to kill one lycanthrope and not bothering to differentiate between good lycanthropes and bad ones — but anyone who claims they carried out a "reign of terror" is over-embellishing.

[Silfren]

thats1evildude wrote...

Eh, it's not really that different from the Order of the Silver Flame in Eberron, which carried out a crusade against a lycanthropy plague that was sweeping across the continent.

Certainly, the Order did do some terrible things — burning whole villages of innocent shifters to kill one lycanthrope and not bothering to differentiate between good lycanthropes and bad ones — but anyone who claims they carried out a "reign of terror" is over-embellishing.

....Sorry, but, um, no.  Burning whole villlages of innocents in order to kill one bad guy is sufficiently terrible to be called a reign of terror.

[TEWR]

Huh, I thought he said only that Leliana was alive, I think he never directly said that she was dead.

I'm fairly certain at some point he did say such a thing about her having actually died, but given the multitude of threads out there I can't find the quote in question.

BSN really needs a better way to find posts by certain people. Google doesn't cut it and searching thread by thread is just a wasted effort.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 avril 2013 - 05:56 .