281 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

It's actually not too different from the Spanish Inquisition itself, which tends to get portrayed as a lot worse than it actually was.

Silfren wrote...

....Sorry, but, um, no.  Burning whole villlages of innocents in order to kill one bad guy is sufficiently terrible to be called a reign of terror.

The Church did make some terrible mistakes. That said, some lycanthropes deliberately engineered such massacres, while others of their kind just carried out their own.

The lycanthropy plague was pretty nasty, and it probably would have destroyed the continent if left unchecked.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 22 avril 2013 - 06:19 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


The more I think on the whole Inquisition whitewashing, the more I'm not too keen on it. I don't mind it being said "They weren't as bad as people like to believe" but I am changing my stance from "I'm fine" to "Seems slightly unrealistic."

By Genitivi's own words, people were blaming magic for everything. Logically, one would think some Inquisitors would be doing the very same thing and thus have a negative outlook. I accept the nature of the world now being chaotic and the Inquisitors trying to quell such chaos with order. That's a realistic depiction of events.

I don't mind the Inquisition being fair and just at some points, but to say it was wholly comprised of such people who were always fair and even-handed when the entire nature of the world has just collapsed from what people perceive to be the result of magic seems out of touch with reality if you ask me.

They wouldn't have a reputation of a reign of terror if they were so even-handed. At the very least, say they were extremely brutal to those they found guilty, whatever the party's affiliation, which would make the even-handedness have a reason for why they were seen in a poor light along with the idea of them helping some Mages -- which would also cast some points against them in the eyes of people who go "Magic! Cancerous magic!".

"Oh, they were fair to you before and during the trial, but Maker help you if you were found to be guilty."

Silfren wrote...

We're not told that Leliana was definitively killed, though.

Gaider said she did die, and how she was resurrected if you killed her remains to be seen.

Which, as days go by, I'm wondering if they even have anything at all.

Where does Gaider say that? I remember him discussing the issue, but nothing specific that he said.  Never mind, I saw your previous comment addressing this.  Tho' I bet you'd hop to thread-by-thread searching real damn quick if Merrill was involved.  Not that I think you're smitten, or anything. 

For that matter, this new info about the Inquistion.  What's the point of the whitewashing?  Does Bioware think we players are so emotionally fragile that we have to have the Inquisition whitewashed in order to find it palatable to play one? 

There's no reason why the Inquisition of the 9th Age has to be identical to the previous one.  If anything, playing an Inquisitor with the baggage of its history would be interesting.  Why does Bioware...ah, screw it.  I like Bioware, but I'm getting too damned frustrated with the constant retcons and the just plain ol' lore contradictions.  I accept that the nature of writing a game for a story means that it will undergo a lot of changes over a couple years time at least, and that with numerous writers on board, there are going to be some inconsistencies that won't all be fixed or explained.  But there needs to be some kind of control in place to minimize them, and instead they get worse with each new publication...

Modifié par Silfren, 22 avril 2013 - 06:06 .

[TEWR]

Regarding Gaider and Leliana, the closest I could find to an actual confirmation was more of an implication. A rather heavy one at that.

David Gaider wrote...

c) Having the option to kill a character doesn't mean we ever intended to have them remain dead. Usually that's the case, yes, but not always. That the player's expectation doesn't match our intention is sometimes inevitable... at least until we explain ourselves full (such as with Leliana), but I imagine in some cases the explanation will still not be satisfactory if the result isn't what the player expected. Whether their expectations were reasonable or not is really beside the point.

"Remain dead" and then citing Leliana leads me to believe she did in fact die, but was brought back somehow (which, FWIW, Leliana says "It was not my time yet" in DAII and there's a codex that says the spirit can be brought back to a person's body if done in a timely fashion upon death. Plus, the Gauntlet's one weird-ass place).

But it's been two years now. I think coming out and stopping with the "Did she die? Hmmm... good question." schtick would be great.

Tho' I bet you'd hop to thread-by-thread searching real damn quick if Merrill was involved. Not that I think you're smitten, or anything.

Lol, I probably would. 

There's no reason why the Inquisition of the 9th Age has to be identical to the previous one. If anything, playing an Inquisitor with the baggage of its history would be interesting.

I agree, it would be fascinating to play from such a point of view, where your association with an organization that's not seen in the best light leads to... well... scorn, hatred, condemnation, curious looks, a desire to prove your group as being different, and pizza parties.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 avril 2013 - 06:16 .

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

That is true, but I feel it still does not hold water. The ghosts in the Gauntlet are more interactive than the ghosts in the Deep Roads. They are more memories and do not interact with you save when you loot the Legion of the Dead tomb. Maferath even goes on to act independently when you tell him you don't know the answer to his question, letting you pass.

If it didn't hold water, the lyrium wall wouldn't be provided as an alternative explanation. If it was irrefutable proof of divinity, then the non-Andrastian Warden and companions would've been persuaded, rather than unimpressed. If the characters don't find it convincing, then I don't see why I should.

almostinsane99 wrote...

And there is Leliana's resurrection if killed. I feel that no amount of lyrium can cure death. Not even Spirit Healer!Hawke or Anders can ressurect Pol after he's killed in Merrill's companion quest. I find it hard to believe any amount of lyrium could have ressurect Leliana if for no other reason than the fact that a bunch of Dwarves would be getting back up if killed in the Deep Roads or "returned to the Stone", which I take to be buried in tombs.

Leliana's rectonning back to the land of the living wasn't explained - that much Gaider conceded when he said it would be revealed in the future. And Wynne came back from the dead, too - no lyrium effected Urn necessary. Perhaps Leliana is an abomination, too.

[Ziegrif]

Posting cuz I wanna read this laters.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

And there is Leliana's resurrection if killed. I feel that no amount of lyrium can cure death. Not even Spirit Healer!Hawke or Anders can ressurect Pol after he's killed in Merrill's companion quest. I find it hard to believe any amount of lyrium could have ressurect Leliana if for no other reason than the fact that a bunch of Dwarves would be getting back up if killed in the Deep Roads or "returned to the Stone", which I take to be buried in tombs.

Leliana's rectonning back to the land of the living wasn't explained - that much Gaider conceded when he said it would be revealed in the future. And Wynne came back from the dead, too - no lyrium effected Urn necessary. Perhaps Leliana is an abomination, too.

If you are reffering to the part where Wynne being alive in Amaranthine, then it was because of a bug. Lelianna being alive was planned. There is quite an important difference.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 avril 2013 - 07:43 .

[Ieldra]

Hmph. Does the Inquisition whitewashing remind anyone of Cerberus in ME2? Will the next game after DAI re-retcon things and make it all super-dark with the whitewashing having been propaganda?

Really, Bioware, stick to your lore and trust it. It'll work for players if you keep things consistent.

Otherwise, I'm looking forward to the book. Damned intercontinental shipping times...

[ladyofpayne]

Please tell mei is there something about Antiva?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hmph. Does the Inquisition whitewashing remind anyone of Cerberus in ME2? Will the next game after DAI re-retcon things and make it all super-dark with the whitewashing having been propaganda?

Really, Bioware, stick to your lore and trust it. It'll work for players if you keep things consistent.

Otherwise, I'm looking forward to the book. Damned intercontinental shipping times...

Which whitewashing? THe Inquisition isn't being white washed. They are elaborating upon a single codex entry we had, on an otherwise not encoutnered faction.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hmph. Does the Inquisition whitewashing remind anyone of Cerberus in ME2? Will the next game after DAI re-retcon things and make it all super-dark with the whitewashing having been propaganda?

Really, Bioware, stick to your lore and trust it. It'll work for players if you keep things consistent.

Otherwise, I'm looking forward to the book. Damned intercontinental shipping times...

Which whitewashing? THe Inquisition isn't being white washed. They are elaborating upon a single codex entry we had, on an otherwise not encoutnered faction.

While I can't argue anything about it being related to Cerberus, they whitewashed them to the point of being entirely pure and good and the only reason they were considered to be deserving of a "reign of terror" title is because they were punishing people equally.

No organization of people is comprised of 100% pure and good people. And yet that's what Genitivi's account is trying to make them sound like.

It's one thing to say "Their badness is blown way out of proportion. Here's the truth folks" and another to say "These guys are so misunderstood! They're so damn awesome!"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 avril 2013 - 08:06 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

And there is Leliana's resurrection if killed. I feel that no amount of lyrium can cure death. Not even Spirit Healer!Hawke or Anders can ressurect Pol after he's killed in Merrill's companion quest. I find it hard to believe any amount of lyrium could have ressurect Leliana if for no other reason than the fact that a bunch of Dwarves would be getting back up if killed in the Deep Roads or "returned to the Stone", which I take to be buried in tombs.

Leliana's rectonning back to the land of the living wasn't explained - that much Gaider conceded when he said it would be revealed in the future. And Wynne came back from the dead, too - no lyrium effected Urn necessary. Perhaps Leliana is an abomination, too.

If you are reffering to the part where Wynne being alive in Amaranthine, then it was because of a bug. Lelianna being alive was planned. There is quite an important difference.

Wynne tells you in the Circle Tower -- or after she faints -- that she died in the Circle fighting a Demon and saving a Mage from it, possibly Petra. I can't recall the name.

She died, and a Spirit of Faith possessed her, allowing her spirit to stay within her body. Since the possession happened immediately around the time Wynne died, her spirit hadn't left completely.

That's what Lob's referring to when he talks of how Wynne didn't need lyrium to be resurrected and how Leliana could be an Abomination too.

Though Abomination is the wrong word to use, of course. But it conveys the point well enough (possessed host).

[Dio Demon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

And there is Leliana's resurrection if killed. I feel that no amount of lyrium can cure death. Not even Spirit Healer!Hawke or Anders can ressurect Pol after he's killed in Merrill's companion quest. I find it hard to believe any amount of lyrium could have ressurect Leliana if for no other reason than the fact that a bunch of Dwarves would be getting back up if killed in the Deep Roads or "returned to the Stone", which I take to be buried in tombs.

Leliana's rectonning back to the land of the living wasn't explained - that much Gaider conceded when he said it would be revealed in the future. And Wynne came back from the dead, too - no lyrium effected Urn necessary. Perhaps Leliana is an abomination, too.

If you are reffering to the part where Wynne being alive in Amaranthine, then it was because of a bug. Lelianna being alive was planned. There is quite an important difference.

Wynne tells you in the Circle Tower -- or after she faints -- that she died in the Circle fighting a Demon and saving a Mage from it, possibly Petra. I can't recall the name.

She died, and a Spirit of Faith possessed her, allowing her spirit to stay within her body. Since the possession happened immediately around the time Wynne died, her spirit hadn't left completely.

That's what Lob's referring to when he talks of how Wynne didn't need lyrium to be resurrected and how Leliana could be an Abomination too.

Though Abomination is the wrong word to use, of course. But it conveys the point well enough (possessed host).

Hmm crazy BSN theory #3985823423401231 Andraste is a spirit and has possessed Leliana!

[TEWR]

That's more or less what I was thinking. And it actually would make some sense. Andraste's said to have appeared before Maferath (and Havard, IIRC) and supposedly converts saw her spirit in the Fade.

And the comics show that peoples' souls can be pulled from the Fade/met in the Fade.

So, yeah, I think that might actually be it.

[BlueMagitek]

Alternatively, you know, the Dragon blood did nothing to the healing property of the Ashes, the Guardian was only taken out of commission temporarily and used some to heal Leliana.

But I guess that'd be silly. =D

EDIT:

Permission - > commission

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 22 avril 2013 - 08:24 .

[Daerog]

Crazy Eyed One wrote...

Hmm crazy BSN theory #3985823423401231 Andraste is a spirit and has possessed Leliana!

Interesting idea, but she doesn't seem to have the same charisma as a woman who was able to go from slave to being the figurehead of a united barbarian force that was capable of challenging the greatest super power Thedas has ever known.

Still, fun idea to play round with. Ever since the whole baroness thing, I've been wondering how much influence and power a soul of a dead person can have in the Fade, could they do the stuff spirits and demons do and essentially become one?

[Knight of Dane]

Crazy Eyed One wrote...

Hmm crazy BSN theory #3985823423401231 Andraste is a spirit and has possessed Leliana!

Nah, just monday..

[Dio Demon]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Crazy Eyed One wrote...

Hmm crazy BSN theory #3985823423401231 Andraste is a spirit and has possessed Leliana!

Interesting idea, but she doesn't seem to have the same charisma as a woman who was able to go from slave to being the figurehead of a united barbarian force that was capable of challenging the greatest super power Thedas has ever known.

Still, fun idea to play round with. Ever since the whole baroness thing, I've been wondering how much influence and power a soul of a dead person can have in the Fade, could they do the stuff spirits and demons do and essentially become one?

Spirit's aren't that dominant they're more submissive, demons are more dominant in my opinion. Anyway who would believe Leliana if she ran around saying 'I'm possessed by Andraste down with the Imperium'?

[Daerog]

Maybe the Templar who would hear her say "I'm possessed..." and then immediately slice her head off.

Still, food for thought, the idea of a powerful blood mage getting killed by a group of "heroes" only to forge his/her own little foothold in the Fade and being able to trap other souls and bind spirits. Probably not something the writers would go for except for extreme exceptions.

[Ieldra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hmph. Does the Inquisition whitewashing remind anyone of Cerberus in ME2? Will the next game after DAI re-retcon things and make it all super-dark with the whitewashing having been propaganda?

Really, Bioware, stick to your lore and trust it. It'll work for players if you keep things consistent.

Otherwise, I'm looking forward to the book. Damned intercontinental shipping times...

Which whitewashing? THe Inquisition isn't being white washed. They are elaborating upon a single codex entry we had, on an otherwise not encoutnered faction.

While I can't argue anything about it being related to Cerberus, they whitewashed them to the point of being entirely pure and good and the only reason they were considered to be deserving of a "reign of terror" title is because they were punishing people equally.

No organization of people is comprised of 100% pure and good people. And yet that's what Genitivi's account is trying to make them sound like.

It's one thing to say "Their badness is blown way out of proportion. Here's the truth folks" and another to say "These guys are so misunderstood! They're so damn awesome!"

That's what I'm fearing, indeed. I haven't got the book yet, so I can't judge for myself yet, but is this account meant to be authoritative? After all, it is in-world information and could be propaganda.

[Daerog]

Or it could just be his opinion gathered from the facts and data that were gathered by him. This is just a guy in the middle of the Dragon Age looking at records, notes, and documents on the history of the Inquisition and coming up with an interpretation of what it must have been like overall.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Leliana's rectonning back to the land of the living wasn't explained - that much Gaider conceded when he said it would be revealed in the future. And Wynne came back from the dead, too - no lyrium effected Urn necessary. Perhaps Leliana is an abomination, too.

Wynne never came back from the dead. The spirit saves her from demon in the mage's tower(She doesn't die). But if you kill her, then she is dead for good.(Asunder Novel is not canon)

The only time we see resurection truly at work, is in Asunder, when Wynne releases that spirit from herself into Evangeline. 
(Story one - in game characters never really die, only falls to the ground during combat)

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

And there is Leliana's resurrection if killed. I feel that no amount of lyrium can cure death. Not even Spirit Healer!Hawke or Anders can ressurect Pol after he's killed in Merrill's companion quest. I find it hard to believe any amount of lyrium could have ressurect Leliana if for no other reason than the fact that a bunch of Dwarves would be getting back up if killed in the Deep Roads or "returned to the Stone", which I take to be buried in tombs.

Leliana's rectonning back to the land of the living wasn't explained - that much Gaider conceded when he said it would be revealed in the future. And Wynne came back from the dead, too - no lyrium effected Urn necessary. Perhaps Leliana is an abomination, too.

If you are reffering to the part where Wynne being alive in Amaranthine, then it was because of a bug. Lelianna being alive was planned. There is quite an important difference.

Wynne tells you in the Circle Tower -- or after she faints -- that she died in the Circle fighting a Demon and saving a Mage from it, possibly Petra. I can't recall the name.

She died, and a Spirit of Faith possessed her, allowing her spirit to stay within her body. Since the possession happened immediately around the time Wynne died, her spirit hadn't left completely.

That's what Lob's referring to when he talks of how Wynne didn't need lyrium to be resurrected and how Leliana could be an Abomination too.

Though Abomination is the wrong word to use, of course. But it conveys the point well enough (possessed host).

Well Wynne didn't die entirely. She was on the verge of death, and would have died, had the spirit not intervened, and she will die, once the spirit ceases to sustain her. However, she never died completely. There is no resurrection in Thedas, except for Evangeline, which is partially explained and Lelianna, that has yet to be explained.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 avril 2013 - 09:52 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Regarding Gaider and Leliana, the closest I could find to an actual confirmation was more of an implication. A rather heavy one at that.

I wouldn't put much stock in Gaider's implications, if I were you.

David Gaider wrote...

If you're truly curious, Maric was lost at sea. Nothing more glamorous than that. Sometimes people simply die.

[Herr Uhl]

The Neromenian (first human tribe in Thedas , and ancient Tevinter) used to think their fallen heroes were reborn as dragons and worship them.It seems Dreamers (also ruler) met the old god in the fade ,and then people start worshipping them as dragons too.

If they thought their heroes became dragons, that could explain why Old Gods take the guise of dragons while having little else in common. Is there any indication on if they started the hero to dragon thing before encountering Old Gods?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 22 avril 2013 - 11:03 .

[JediHealerCosmin]

Thanks for the info OP!

Reznore57 wrote...

15 years before the first Blight , it seems a group of Kossith land in the Korcari wilds ,and ...it just explains ogre.(I'm not really a big fan of this explanation , it really feel like "damn we never really thought about ogre origin!" but anyway...at least it's there.)

Via gryphons or starships?