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[The Elder King]

Palidane wrote...



Also, how and where has Andrastianism been disproved?

To begin with, it wasn't never confirmed. There isn't any actual evidence that  confirm that the Maker, or the Elven gods, exist.
It's not sure that the Maker exists, as it's not sure that if he exist, he's the same as the Chantry portrays him, or if he's another Old God, Fen'Harel or Chuck Norris in disguise.
Of course, the opposite is true as well. We have no evidence to say that the Maker doesn't exist. I don't know if we'll ever find out if he exists or not.

[Heimdall]

In Exile wrote...

Actually,we've seen exactly that kind of magic when the Veil is thin. It happend at Warden's Keep, and it happens (later) in DA:A during the excursion to that dwarf town. 

Just thought I'd jump in here.  In Kal Hirol and Soldier's Keep, we were treated to echoes completely unaware of our presence.  In the Gauntlet, those spectors were aware, to an extent, and could interact with us.  Not trying to get into the argument, just noting the distinction.  It isn't precisely the same magic.

But Lyrium has done similar things. And we've seen powerful demons (in the Fade) read hearts before. What the Guardian does is different because it's outside the Fade, but that doesn't mean it's somehow magical.

...Magical being a relative term here? 

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 22 avril 2013 - 10:46 .

[LobselVith8]

Palidane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's offered as another explanation by the developers. I'm not certain how you can claim it makes no sense when it's the alternative view provided by the creators. The point is, it's not irrefutable proof of divinity. And as Morrigan notes to Leliana, magic and spirts don't require a higher power or some intelligent design behind it.

It is the off-hand observation of Oghren, which you only hear if you did Orzammar before the Gauntlet and if you brought him along. Bioware did probably throw that in there as an alternative explanation, but just because that was its intended purpose doesn't mean it actually does it's job well.

Also, the magic in the Gauntlet was much of anything we've seen before.

You're welcome to think that it didn't do it's job well, but it's still a alternative to explain the powers of the ashes. That's the point; like it or dislike it, you can't toss aside the fact that it's part of the narrative. The Gauntlet isn't irrefutable proof of divinity. In fact, we see something similar to the Gauntlet with Merrill and the Abomination Marethari. That might explain the fact that the non-Andrastians were unimpressed with the Gauntlet.

Palidane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're really stretching things (including the characters) to explain why none of the events in the temple persuaded the non-Andrastian companions or The Warden who doesn't believe in the Maker. I don't see why you're so determined to canonize the Andrastian view when there's evidence to disprove it.

The Warden is out of this completely, he is not an in-universe character. As for the rest, I can only assume the dev's didn't want to make a plot point out of it, and would rather write Oghren having a bunch of drunken escapades than Oghren struggling with belief, and the unknowable etc etc.

Also, how and where has Andrastianism been disproved?

The Warden can believe or disbelief in the Maker, however, so I don't see why the protagonist shouldn't be taken into consideration. Neither the protagonist nor any of the non-Andrastian characters are convinced by anything they see in the temple, so I think that's a significant sign that the events of the Urn of Sacred Ashes aren't irrefutable proof of the divinity of the Maker. And vilifing Sten, Oghren, and Morrigan doesn't change the fact that they simply aren't persuaded to change their minds by the events in the temple, including the Guardian's powers or longevity.

Since Andrastian has never been proven, it's an issue of faith.

Palidane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If what these characters are seeing isn't miraculous or persuasive, then it isn't indisputable proof of divinity.

I've never said the Gauntlet and the creatures therein are indisputable proof of the Maker's divinity. All I'm trying to say is that if you don't believe in the Maker, you have to come up with another explanation for the Gauntlet, and I don't think "the shiny blue rocks of pure death made some healing dust" is going to cut it. 

That was a decision made by the creators of Dragon Age; it isn't for you or me to decide to toss aside. I would certainly love to toss aside the recton of the Magi Boon, but that's not really something I can do outside of fan fiction. The developers decided to have Oghren explicitly mention a thick wall of lyrium effecting everything in the temple to provide an alternative explanation for certain things that we saw in the ruins, including the healing properties of the ashes. 

[Renmiri1]

The Alamarri (those guy who will become Ferelden) crossed the Frostback Mountains , fleeing a "Shadow Goddess" ...it's not new lore , but hey it just sounds cool.

Flemeth ?

Also, it seems Somniari like Fenril were really important in bringing blood mage to thedas.


PS: Andraste could have dragons blood, like Calenhad

Modifié par Renmiri1, 23 avril 2013 - 01:46 .

[LobselVith8]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Also, it seems Somniari like Fenril were really important in bringing blood mage to thedas. 

It would be interesting to play as a Dreamer like Feynriel. Especially a half-elven protagonist, in respect to the "human only" limitation of Inquisition.

[WardenWade]

Lord Aesir wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Actually,we've seen exactly that kind of magic when the Veil is thin. It happend at Warden's Keep, and it happens (later) in DA:A during the excursion to that dwarf town. 

Just thought I'd jump in here.  In Kal Hirol and Soldier's Keep, we were treated to echoes completely unaware of our presence.  In the Gauntlet, those spectors were aware, to an extent, and could interact with us.  Not trying to get into the argument, just noting the distinction.  It isn't precisely the same magic.

But Lyrium has done similar things. And we've seen powerful demons (in the Fade) read hearts before. What the Guardian does is different because it's outside the Fade, but that doesn't mean it's somehow magical.

...Magical being a relative term here? 

Regarding the bolded text (a bit OT), like the difference between a "residual" or an "intelligent haunting."  That's how I've always thought of Kal Hirol vs. something like the Gauntlet spirits.

[Ausstig]

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

In the Gauntlet, his ghost implies that he was jealous that she was the Maker's spiritual wife. "I loved her too. But what man, can compare to a god?"

Which, off-topic, I think legitimizes the Gauntlet and the Urn of Sacred Ashes. None of the characters there would have been taught that. Chantry dogma only says he was jealous of her power and influence.

Off-topic, Oghren explains the wall of lyrium is effecting the entire temple, including the ruins. It calls into question the validity of the mystical aspect of the quest.

On-topic, it's interesting to read more revelations about Nevarra and Tevinter. Has there been any word about the semi-permanent Dalish colony near Rivain?

Whoa.

You are such a hypocrite. You think that the elves were immortal, cause they said so, and lost by being 'near' humans.

But you don't think that the Maker exists despite the temple keeper being hundreds of years old, not to menton the stuff you see there?

[Silfren]

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

In the Gauntlet, his ghost implies that he was jealous that she was the Maker's spiritual wife. "I loved her too. But what man, can compare to a god?"

Which, off-topic, I think legitimizes the Gauntlet and the Urn of Sacred Ashes. None of the characters there would have been taught that. Chantry dogma only says he was jealous of her power and influence.

Off-topic, Oghren explains the wall of lyrium is effecting the entire temple, including the ruins. It calls into question the validity of the mystical aspect of the quest.

On-topic, it's interesting to read more revelations about Nevarra and Tevinter. Has there been any word about the semi-permanent Dalish colony near Rivain?

Whoa.

You are such a hypocrite. You think that the elves were immortal, cause they said so, and lost by being 'near' humans.

But you don't think that the Maker exists despite the temple keeper being hundreds of years old, not to menton the stuff you see there?

It's a little harsh to go calling someone a hypocrite because they have one theory on one issue and a different theory on another.  I don't see how those two subjects are at all related.

[Ausstig]

Silfren wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

In the Gauntlet, his ghost implies that he was jealous that she was the Maker's spiritual wife. "I loved her too. But what man, can compare to a god?"

Which, off-topic, I think legitimizes the Gauntlet and the Urn of Sacred Ashes. None of the characters there would have been taught that. Chantry dogma only says he was jealous of her power and influence.

Off-topic, Oghren explains the wall of lyrium is effecting the entire temple, including the ruins. It calls into question the validity of the mystical aspect of the quest.

On-topic, it's interesting to read more revelations about Nevarra and Tevinter. Has there been any word about the semi-permanent Dalish colony near Rivain?

Whoa.

You are such a hypocrite. You think that the elves were immortal, cause they said so, and lost by being 'near' humans.

But you don't think that the Maker exists despite the temple keeper being hundreds of years old, not to menton the stuff you see there?

It's a little harsh to go calling someone a hypocrite because they have one theory on one issue and a different theory on another.  I don't see how those two subjects are at all related.

I am calling Lobse a hypocrite because of acceptence of Elven immortality as turth based off little to no evidence, but dismissing the evidence of the Maker, because these thing justify Lobse's views about the evil of humans/Chantry and the 'goodness' of Elves. Twisting and deneying facts to suit their own needs while ignoring anything that threatens that view.

[LobselVith8]

Ausstig wrote...

Silfren wrote...

It's a little harsh to go calling someone a hypocrite because they have one theory on one issue and a different theory on another.  I don't see how those two subjects are at all related.

I am calling Lobse a hypocrite because of acceptence of Elven immortality as turth based off little to no evidence, but dismissing the evidence of the Maker, because these thing justify Lobse's views about the evil of humans/Chantry and the 'goodness' of Elves. Twisting and deneying facts to suit their own needs while ignoring anything that threatens that view.

I continually addressed that the immortality of the elves was a possibility that might be true given the longevity of the Dalish who live longer the more generations they are away from humanity. You might want to get your facts straight next time.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Ausstig wrote...

I am calling Lobse a hypocrite because of acceptence of Elven immortality as turth based off little to no evidence, but dismissing the evidence of the Maker, because these thing justify Lobse's views about the evil of humans/Chantry and the 'goodness' of Elves. Twisting and deneying facts to suit their own needs while ignoring anything that threatens that view. 

1)they are not be immortal by body's(yeah they lived hundrends years but still) and Dalish said that, they  have a stong connections with nature and fade and they be immortal by their powerfull mage souls who can be in Fade for months and years and came back, and when they be very old they go to Uthenera-Endless Path, their soul go and stay in Fade forever

all what Dales want, is reclaim their natural magic powers, by isolated themself from Humans and prevent any crossbreading with them for the sake of their dying race(if they some of them did not want to live in isolation nobody would holding them, exept their own parents if they wanted to)

even if their can't be immortal anymore or they never be immortal, they have a right to isolated themselfs in their own lands from Humans and their religion...and they have right to not crossbreading with humans and produce only childrens of their own elven race

you may call them "racists", but it is their choice for their own kind to be a race of elven mages...they are not conquer humans and force them to be their slaves, they just wanted to stay alone but Orlais Chantry not wanted

and they are not Qunari with FORCED Tamassaran selection program for ALL RACES whether they want it or not...this program is purely racist and ammoral

2)Maker cant exist as CREATOR and GOD of FADE AND THEDAS because:

    1)we already have "Forgotten Ones" and very ancient elven gods(and yeah Black City and fade their home and Sacred place for elves) and after Old Gods(but we know that they are not really gods but very ancient and powerful magic creatures-race and their blood make people stronger) who been worchip for milenia
    2)NO ONE exept Anraste and Hessarian who see him in Fade after Andraste death, NEVER SEE OR HEARD HIM
    3)Andrase cant see or even heard Maker if she is not a Mage and have meditation in Fade for a very long time(only ancient Elves and very powerfull mages can do such thing)

so Maker cant be anyone exept :

1)mage andraste sick immagination or her lie(after her death she can show Hessarian in Fade what she wanted)
2)some kind of Desire Demon who represented himself as "Maker"-god what Andraste wanted to see
3)soul of the powerful mage-taited Magisters in fade(someone who can escape into fade from Tevinters Grey Wardens) who represented himself as "Maker" to mage Andraste
4)one of the Old God dragon who can speak with her after mage Andraste drink High Dragon Blood and what she called as "Maker"

3)And please do not write that Andraste "wanted to free people from the tyranny of Mages & Magisters" because it was not true, and we know that  very large parts of Thedas was abandon by very weakened Empire during First Blight and controlled by many barbarians

all what Andraste wanted is conquer(she's army was conquer and annexed most of all abandon south lands and after she go agains north land of Tevinter Empire) and rule most of Thedas lands by himself by "Maker will" without any strong concurents(she can mindcontrol non mages like Maferat, but she cant controll all of powerful magisters dynasties and Archont and they would not accept her authority)

and maybe(if "Maker" is Old God or Tainted Magister) she wanted to punish Tevinter Magisters for betraying Old Gods and abandoring worchip to them

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 23 avril 2013 - 07:07 .

[Ausstig]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

Silfren wrote...

It's a little harsh to go calling someone a hypocrite because they have one theory on one issue and a different theory on another.  I don't see how those two subjects are at all related.

I am calling Lobse a hypocrite because of acceptence of Elven immortality as turth based off little to no evidence, but dismissing the evidence of the Maker, because these thing justify Lobse's views about the evil of humans/Chantry and the 'goodness' of Elves. Twisting and deneying facts to suit their own needs while ignoring anything that threatens that view.

I continually addressed that the immortality of the elves was a possibility that might be true given the longevity of the Dalish who live longer the more generations they are away from humanity. You might want to get your facts straight next time.

That's no longer true, as you well know. Maybe you should get your facts stright.

Also Dark Korsar that is only true if you take the Elves word over the Chantry. You take this as fact, I do not.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Ausstig wrote...

Also Dark Korsar that is only true if you take the Elves word over the Chantry. You take this as fact, I do not. 

damn...do you even read what i wrote?, and i am not talking just about legendary elven immortality<_<

[Ausstig]

Dark Korsar wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

Also Dark Korsar that is only true if you take the Elves word over the Chantry. You take this as fact, I do not. 

damn...do you even read what i wrote?, and i am not talking just about legendary elven immortality<_<

No you also talked about how the Elves have some special conection to the Fade, I assume you are talking about Dreamwalkers and the new info says [I think this is right] that there were human ones as well. You also say how the Maker is false and MUST have been made up/a dragon, because the Elves say something else. You also make up C@#$% like the Elves having lyrium in the veins, so forgive me for not wanting to waste time going each point when my first statement covered what I needed.

Also as I have said before, people give the Elves a free pass on their Legends, up to and including humans taking away their immorality by being near them, but deny the Chantry. Why because the Elves legends, which they may have just made up to make themselves feel better (as some say the book of Reverlation was) says something else. Maybe the Elves are wrong?

[LobselVith8]

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I continually addressed that the immortality of the elves was a possibility that might be true given the longevity of the Dalish who live longer the more generations they are away from humanity. You might want to get your facts straight next time.

That's no longer true, as you well know. Maybe you should get your facts stright.

Also Dark Korsar that is only true if you take the Elves word over the Chantry. You take this as fact, I do not.

Why? Because Kirby made a mistake? It happens; she's human, not a robot. Gaider, Origins and Dragon Age II indicate that the Dalish live longer.

[Aolbain]

Cant it just be that the dalish live longer because they live healthier lives in the forest?

[DKJaigen]

Aolbain wrote...

Cant it just be that the dalish live longer because they live healthier lives in the forest?

Having done a survival trip into the norwegian mountains i can tell you this: living in the open nature is no picknick and people are better of in a slum. 3 basic necessities for survival : warmth ,shelter and water are in abundance in a slum.

Sure you can die of diseases in a slum but infection can just as easily happen in the wilds. Also slums dont need to be plague ridden. During the times of the black death the jewish community was spared by the epidemic because they where on of the few groups who had a very strict hygiiene .

[Aolbain]

DKJaigen wrote...

Aolbain wrote...

Cant it just be that the dalish live longer because they live healthier lives in the forest?

Having done a survival trip into the norwegian mountains i can tell you this: living in the open nature is no picknick and people are better of in a slum. 3 basic necessities for survival : warmth ,shelter and water are in abundance in a slum.

Sure you can die of diseases in a slum but infection can just as easily happen in the wilds. Also slums dont need to be plague ridden. During the times of the black death the jewish community was spared by the epidemic because they where on of the few groups who had a very strict hygiiene .

Not saying the nature is like a disney movie, I've done the same  thing (well, it was the swedish mountains, but that's sorta the same).  I'm not an expert on this but I think I read somewhere that the life
expectations went down when humanity became settled and started to practise agriculture. Still, like I said, I am no expert and could definitely be wrong.

Edit for awful, awful layout and spelling.

Modifié par Aolbain, 23 avril 2013 - 03:27 .

[Heimdall]

Aolbain wrote...

Not saying the nature is like a disney movie, I've done the same
thing (well, it was the swedish mountains, but that's sorta the same). 
I'm not an expert on this but I think I read somewhere that the life
expectations went down when humanity became settled and started to
practise agriculture. Still, like I said, I am now expert and could
definitely be wrong.

I'm reasonably certain agriculture made lives longer not shorter.  Nomadic hunter gatherers couldn't sustain the elderly.  In some cases the elderly were ritualistically killed when they could no longer keep up.

[LobselVith8]

Aolbain wrote...

Cant it just be that the dalish live longer because they live healthier lives in the forest?

Gaider mentioned that it seemed like the Dalish live longer the more generations that they live away from humans, and that some Dalish live exceptionally long lives (although not as long as Tolkien elves). His exact words were: "Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years." Ethereal also pointed out this information about some exceptionally long-lived Dalish elves:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Beyond the aforementioned DG quote, we also have Master Ilen talking of his father who fought the Clayne tribes immediately after the Fall of the Dales, which occurred a few centuries prior to Calenhad's uniting of the clans into modern day Ferelden as we know it.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As she (and I) said, Master Ilen tells us of how his father fought against the Clayne tribes pre-Calenhad/immediately post Fall of the Dales. That was six centuries prior to DAO, roughly. 

That's enough evidence to say that something's not jiving well. Even if the Dalish's long lifespan is due to something that isn't isolation, that doesn't negate the fact that they live for a long-ass time well beyond humans and city Elves.

[Sir JK]

That... can't be right... That's not "tend to live longer". That's 400-600 years ago... 16-30 human generations (and few humans live much longer than 4-5). If that is true, then it's outright confirmed that Dalish live immensely longer than humans. It even indicates that Zathrian was nothing special after all... yet everyone goes on about how he has lived exceptionally long. Yet his lifetime would be about the same as Ilen+Father each (or much shorter, of we assume Ilen is less than hundred).

It would mean that Zathrian and Marethari both are... young.

We must get that one confirmed. Because if it's true, then the elven long lives is pretty much guaranteed, no ambigouty. It essentially means that an elf is well and truly capable of living 8-10 times as long as a human.

[Heimdall]

Sir JK wrote...

That... can't be right... That's not "tend to live longer". That's 400-600 years ago... 16-30 human generations (and few humans live much longer than 4-5). If that is true, then it's outright confirmed that Dalish live immensely longer than humans. It even indicates that Zathrian was nothing special after all... yet everyone goes on about how he has lived exceptionally long. Yet his lifetime would be about the same as Ilen+Father each (or much shorter, of we assume Ilen is less than hundred).

It would mean that Zathrian and Marethari both are... young.

We must get that one confirmed. Because if it's true, then the elven long lives is pretty much guaranteed, no ambigouty. It essentially means that an elf is well and truly capable of living 8-10 times as long as a human.

Yup, it sounds like an oversight to me.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

That... can't be right... That's not "tend to live longer". That's 400-600 years ago... 16-30 human generations (and few humans live much longer than 4-5). If that is true, then it's outright confirmed that Dalish live immensely longer than humans. It even indicates that Zathrian was nothing special after all... yet everyone goes on about how he has lived exceptionally long. Yet his lifetime would be about the same as Ilen+Father each (or much shorter, of we assume Ilen is less than hundred).

It would mean that Zathrian and Marethari both are... young.

We must get that one confirmed. Because if it's true, then the elven long lives is pretty much guaranteed, no ambigouty. It essentially means that an elf is well and truly capable of living 8-10 times as long as a human.

Gaider did indicate that Zathrian wasn't the only "exceptional" individual among the Dalish: "There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years."

[Henioo]

Does the book actually use the word "kossith"?