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#201
randomcheeses

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

That... can't be right... That's not "tend to live longer". That's 400-600 years ago... 16-30 human generations (and few humans live much longer than 4-5). If that is true, then it's outright confirmed that Dalish live immensely longer than humans. It even indicates that Zathrian was nothing special after all... yet everyone goes on about how he has lived exceptionally long. Yet his lifetime would be about the same as Ilen+Father each (or much shorter, of we assume Ilen is less than hundred).

It would mean that Zathrian and Marethari both are... young.

We must get that one confirmed. Because if it's true, then the elven long lives is pretty much guaranteed, no ambigouty. It essentially means that an elf is well and truly capable of living 8-10 times as long as a human.


Gaider did indicate that Zathrian wasn't the only "exceptional" individual among the Dalish: "There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years."


I think we should keep in mind that Zathrian was a big ol' spirit-manipulating dodgy-magic-using cheater. It was his magical bond to the Lady of the Forest/Witherfang that kept him alive for centuries, not some inherent elven tendency towards long life.

#202
LobselVith8

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randomcheeses wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider did indicate that Zathrian wasn't the only "exceptional" individual among the Dalish: "There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years."


I think we should keep in mind that Zathrian was a big ol' spirit-manipulating dodgy-magic-using cheater. It was his magical bond to the Lady of the Forest/Witherfang that kept him alive for centuries, not some inherent elven tendency towards long life.


I think the point was that there are some Dalish elves who have lived a long time, as Ethereal's point would also suggest (from the longevity of Master Ilen and his father, who apparently lived for centuries).

#203
Henioo

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About them Qunari in the Wilds. Since the griffons seem to be from Par Volen, maybe they did land there and flew to the Wilds :P

#204
Sir JK

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I'm not saying it's not true Lobsel, just that I want it confirmed that the implication of two regular elves living longer that Zathrian was intented. Emphasis on longer. That Marethari likely is not the eldest member of her own clan is also something I'd want to confirm.

It also calls into question why the Dalish lament losing so much of their Dalish society and culture when they could have asked Ilen's father. The man was after all a succesful warrior after the fall of the Dales. If nothing else his father ought to have been able to tell him. It's not a stretch that if 2 generations managed 600 years, 3 ought to have been able to take on 800.
So... did Ilen's grandfather live in the Dales and thus ought to have you know... taught the Dalish about what it was like? The thing they bemoan having lost so much knowledge about half the time (the other half being filled by bemoaning losing Arlathan ;) )?

And also why Marethari's age is so venerable when clearly master Ilen is probably older.

Not to mention why not a single soul save master Ilen mentions this. It'd be something to talk about, wouldn't you agree? Especially for a people so obsessed about history as the Dalish.

I'm sure Zathrian is far from the only one with exceptional long life. The question is if he was exceptional among them or if dalish are not just living slightly longer than humans but mindboggingly so.

Modifié par Sir JK, 23 avril 2013 - 08:34 .


#205
Dave of Canada

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Aolbain wrote...

I'm not an expert on this but I think I read somewhere that the life expectations went down when humanity became settled and started to practise agriculture. Still, like I said, I am no expert and could definitely be wrong.


Mini-rant:
Basing it off medival europe, it depends entirely on the person and location in question. Most people never owned the lands they worked on, the average farm was owned by a lord and the peasantry had to operate the farm to the lord's benefit (who'd then sell the crops and pay the peasantry a meager sum).

A good harvest would yield the peasantry money to pay their taxes and enough to thrive during the winter, a poor harvest would mean the peasants would have to find a way to pay their taxes and buy the necessary supplies to survive during winter (which in itself was difficult).

So in small villages, the life expectency was based on whether or not you could work with your lord to yield a significant harvest. Otherwise, you could potentially starve or be forced off your land. The more people in your family, the more your life expectency went down during a horrible harvest season.

When it came to cities, guild masters ruled over everyone who remained within and your life expectency was whether or not you had good relations with your lord and/if you were wealthy. Starving on the streets was common and this often meant becoming diseased as chamber pots were emptied in the streets, the diseasedwere segregated and commoners who couldn't afford wine or beer were forced to drink tainted water.

Nomads aren't much better off than the village peasantry, their entire lifestyle was built on whether or not they could hunt/gather for provisions. They didn't have to suffer from the diseases which the city streets bred, they didn't have to drink from tainted wells but their entire survival hinged on a good hunting year (as wild fruit and nuts couldn't sustain them for long) and they were more exposed to the elements than someone who had a home.

My real-world nomadic knowledge is low, I don't know whether or not they traveled across the continent to avoid winter or how long they remained in one location but that's something which the Dalish does, to their benefit. The Dalish are different than real-world nomads in the sense that they've got mages, a significant change.

City elves starve, become sick, drink filthy water and live on the streets in their own filth.
Dalish elves can starve, drink river water, live healthier and have magic to clear any affliction they might suffer.

The life-style difference is drastic, the Dalish have the clear advantage. It's why I don't see the claims that elves are restoring their immortality being a legitimate one, it feels more like an excuse for elves to shun and hate humans more as they broadcast their racial superiority than one which has to do with hard facts.

#206
Heimdall

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Dave of Canada wrote...
My real-world nomadic knowledge is low, I don't know whether or not they traveled across the continent to avoid winter or how long they remained in one location but that's something which the Dalish does, to their benefit. The Dalish are different than real-world nomads in the sense that they've got mages, a significant change.

City elves starve, become sick, drink filthy water and live on the streets in their own filth.
Dalish elves can starve, drink river water, live healthier and have magic to clear any affliction they might suffer.

The life-style difference is drastic, the Dalish have the clear advantage. It's why I don't see the claims that elves are restoring their immortality being a legitimate one, it feels more like an excuse for elves to shun and hate humans more as they broadcast their racial superiority than one which has to do with hard facts.

 I don't think the lifestyle difference would be as drastic as you say.  To my knowledge, mages can't cure every affliction, though it probably helps.  I know a little bit about nomads and I understand it to be a rather threadbare existence.  Most real life nomadic groups follow or keep herds of native animals.  The Dalish don't do that, and don't eat Halla to my knowledge.  This would put their food supplies in question, as it is quite up to chance whether they find themselves in good hunting land at the proper time and before humans drive them off the best land.  River water may or may not be much cleaner than the river running through the alienage in Denerim, there could easily be a maggot infested carcass lying in the shallows just around the bend.  Slum living isn't great, but the wilderness isn't much more accomodating even with magic.

I feel the same way about the Dalish claims to restoring their immortality though.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 23 avril 2013 - 09:05 .


#207
Ausstig

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I continually addressed that the immortality of the elves was a possibility that might be true given the longevity of the Dalish who live longer the more generations they are away from humanity. You might want to get your facts straight next time.


That's no longer true, as you well know. Maybe you should get your facts stright.

Also Dark Korsar that is only true if you take the Elves word over the Chantry. You take this as fact, I do not.


Why? Because Kirby made a mistake? It happens; she's human, not a robot. Gaider, Origins and Dragon Age II indicate that the Dalish live longer.


How did she make a mistake? Cause she disagreed with you. New info over writes the old, just get over your self and accept that things have changed.

#208
LobselVith8

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Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why? Because Kirby made a mistake? It happens; she's human, not a robot. Gaider, Origins and Dragon Age II indicate that the Dalish live longer.


How did she make a mistake? Cause she disagreed with you. New info over writes the old, just get over your self and accept that things have changed.


Because it contradicted information from Origins, Dragon Age II, and Gaider about the longevity of the Dalish. I don't understand why I need to continually explain this to you.

#209
Dave of Canada

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Because it contradicted information from Origins, Dragon Age II, and Gaider about the longevity of the Dalish. I don't understand why I need to continually explain this to you.


You're always selective about what is canon and what is mistake, Lobsel.

#210
LobselVith8

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Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because it contradicted information from Origins, Dragon Age II, and Gaider about the longevity of the Dalish. I don't understand why I need to continually explain this to you.


You're always selective about what is canon and what is mistake, Lobsel. 


Perhaps you feel that way because you and I disagree on everything, Dave. My point stands that we have two games and a developer who indicates that the Dalish live longer lives than the Alienage elves.

#211
Dave of Canada

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Perhaps you feel that way because you and I disagree on everything, Dave.


Need I link the threads where you and Polaris argued against Gaider?

#212
LobselVith8

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Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Perhaps you feel that way because you and I disagree on everything, Dave.


Need I link the threads where you and Polaris argued against Gaider? 


About The Warden not being selfish in sparing Loghain? About the option to express atheism in Origins? About Hawke being unable to express that he doesn't believe in the Maker? About how some fans perceived Leliana as anti-mage in "Faith"? You're not really contributing to the discussion here, Dave. 

I'm pointing out that two games and a developer provide information that the Dalish live longer than the Alienage elves; you seem intent on turning this thread into a personal feud with me because we don't get along.

#213
Ausstig

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why? Because Kirby made a mistake? It happens; she's human, not a robot. Gaider, Origins and Dragon Age II indicate that the Dalish live longer.


How did she make a mistake? Cause she disagreed with you. New info over writes the old, just get over your self and accept that things have changed.


Because it contradicted information from Origins, Dragon Age II, and Gaider about the longevity of the Dalish. I don't understand why I need to continually explain this to you.


It is a retcon

Dragon Age is a growing universe things change. The Qunary used to black and not have horns. Now they are gray (rather then 'Bronze Skinned Giants, which I am  bit sad about), and have very big Horns and they look different, as do Elves.

Things change, facts change, you will have a very unhappy life if you can not accept that the fictional 'facts' in a fictional universe change.

#214
LobselVith8

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Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because it contradicted information from Origins, Dragon Age II, and Gaider about the longevity of the Dalish. I don't understand why I need to continually explain this to you.


It is a retcon

Dragon Age is a growing universe things change. The Qunary used to black and not have horns. Now they are gray (rather then 'Bronze Skinned Giants, which I am  bit sad about), and have very big Horns and they look different, as do Elves.

Things change, facts change, you will have a very unhappy life if you can not accept that the fictional 'facts' in a fictional universe change. 


There's no evidence it's a recton. It's a single post that's likely a mistake because it contradicts another developer and two games. Your persistence in pretending as though its a recton with no information to support such a claim isn't really helping matters.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 avril 2013 - 08:44 .


#215
Ausstig

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because it contradicted information from Origins, Dragon Age II, and Gaider about the longevity of the Dalish. I don't understand why I need to continually explain this to you.


It is a retcon

Dragon Age is a growing universe things change. The Qunary used to black and not have horns. Now they are gray (rather then 'Bronze Skinned Giants, which I am  bit sad about), and have very big Horns and they look different, as do Elves.

Things change, facts change, you will have a very unhappy life if you can not accept that the fictional 'facts' in a fictional universe change. 


There's no evidence it's a recton. It's a single post that's likely a mistake because it contradicts another developer and two games. Your persistence in pretending as though its a recton with no information to support such a claim isn't really helping matters.


Where in the two games? Show me quotes.

I have seen what another devoloper has said, but not any in game evidence. No Zathrian does not count unless you wish to say that there are other Elves using blood magic as well.

#216
Asdrubael Vect

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Ausstig

do you remember that Zatrian just use one blood magic ritual with his own blood more than 400 years ago and he still young and strong....

(in Awakening Baroness which defeated Dragon by herself, needed a lot of blood magic sacrifices to stay young)

and do you remember Vassalin and his main ingredient?...yes its blood(only blood of Vassalin owner)

and remember what this stuff with Lyrium makes with non-mage city elf Fenris?..He can even pass through walls(mage with such powers can go through Fade not just dream)

(actually Fenris is like Hawke have some mage blood because his sister is a mage)

so find a elven(dalish would be better) mage(blood/arcane mage & keeper) and make him Vassalin with his elven mage blood and some Lyrium

(i think it would be much better, if this mage drink Dragon blood and after will use a mix of his blood with some Dragon blood and Pure Lyrium for his Vassalin)

and you'll get a new "immortal" elf

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 24 avril 2013 - 11:05 .


#217
Ausstig

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So your saying it is Blood magic?

If so sure why not! Would be a nice twist on the immortal Elves.

But that's not what Lobsel was saying. I think he may have changed his view.

#218
Asdrubael Vect

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Dalish said that they NOT BE IMMORTAL BY BODY'S. They lived for a very long time but they also grew old and died, and have their Endless Path in Fade

they have immortal mage soul and have a very strong connexion with Fade and nature...

they were a race of powerfull mages-dreamers who was more powerful then any Tevinter Altus dynasties(actually they are descendants of those who crossbreading with ancient elves)

Humans with dragons and demons destroyed Arlathan, enslaved them and with crossbreading stole their  powerfull magic powers and former connection with Fade and nature...and Humans forced elves to teach their knoledges about  Magic and Fade(what was sacred for them as Black City)

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 24 avril 2013 - 11:44 .


#219
Ausstig

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So the Elves are uber awesome and Humans are pure evil who want to take the Elve's magic powers by cross breeding with them?

Any way I always just read the Long Sleep as some type of healing sleep or hibernation.

#220
Herr Uhl

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Maybe sometime in the future we can get a lore thread that doesn't devolve into rehashing the arguments from dozens of earlier threads on elven immortality, even though nothing of the original topic pertained to it.

This, however, seems unlikely.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 24 avril 2013 - 01:28 .


#221
The Elder King

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Since the book doesn't seem to contain any info about elven immortality, could you guys drop this topic? There was a thread about the longevity of DA races. Find it and continue the discussion here, or start a new thread to get Gaider's attention so that he might respond and say what is true and what is false.

#222
Ausstig

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Interesting info about Tevinter, any new stuff about the Qun?

Also how do Human dreamers effect things?

Modifié par Ausstig, 24 avril 2013 - 10:48 .


#223
LobselVith8

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Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's no evidence it's a recton. It's a single post that's likely a mistake because it contradicts another developer and two games. Your persistence in pretending as though its a recton with no information to support such a claim isn't really helping matters.


Where in the two games? Show me quotes.

I have seen what another devoloper has said, but not any in game evidence. No Zathrian does not count unless you wish to say that there are other Elves using blood magic as well. 


Xil and Ethereal did that in the other thread. You're welcome to peruse their posts if you'd like. And Zathrian was mentioned as one example by Gaider's statement, not the only one. Ethereal pointed out how Master Ilen's father had lived longer than Zathrian had, but he died. He also cited examples of dwarves who lived longer than humans, so Kirby's post is likely a mistake. No big deal; even the developers are human.

#224
Stella-Arc

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Wait...where was it stated that Marethari was a century old?

#225
uknowitbeb

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Does anyone mind talking more about other things in the book, besides Andraste, OGB, Flemeth and all of the usual forum stuff. I wanna hear about new things.