219 réponses à ce sujet

[drayfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

drayfish wrote...

...What?

You were the one who said you could not envision a universe in which someone wasn't dominating someone else.

You then argued that it might as well be you in Control.

As I said: that's precisely what the Catalyst also believed.

For the 'greater good' and all that.


EDIT:  Also, having the 'large guns' is what will force people to do your bidding.  That's kind of the point.

My point is that someone will always be the dominant power. In the ME universe, it was the Council during the current cycle, though one could argue that Hackett's Alliance-led coalition overtook it by the end of ME3. No matter how much cooperation and equality there is, someone will always be the strongest power in the room. Obviously, they don't have to force the others to do their bidding at all times--fortunate, as I don't plan on doing so either.

(Putting aside the fact that this comparison makes no sense since, for all its convoluted idiocy, the council was at least still a form of democracy, and Hackett's armada was, as you said, a 'coalition'...)

Sure you think that.  Because you are presuming that everyone will do what you think is 'right'.  After all, you have the 'largest guns'...

I wonder what will happen when they start stepping out of line?

I guess that's why you're in charge now though, right?  So that - like the Catalyst - if you can see that they can't tale care of themselves, you'll do it for them?

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is a good point. And I do remember EDI saying this. But I don't want to keep that in mind for the wrong reasons. I don't want to destroy the Reapers thinking, "Well, EDI did say she would risk non-functionality, so..." In other words, I'm trying to destroy the Reapers without making it seem like I am using what EDI said to my advantage. I don't want it to be like that. I don't know how to fix this.

You don't have to destroy the Reapers themselves, you've already taken down their master.

I know. But the blast also kills the Reapers. I'm trying to admire EDI's remark without making it seem like I am taking it to my advantage.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 22 avril 2013 - 05:31 .

[Vargeisa]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is a good point. And I do remember EDI saying this. But I don't want to keep that in mind for the wrong reasons. I don't want to destroy the Reapers thinking, "Well, EDI did say she would risk non-functionality, so..." In other words, I'm trying to destroy the Reapers without making it seem like I am using what EDI said to my advantage. I don't want it to be like that. I don't know how to fix this.

You don't have to destroy the Reapers themselves, you've already taken down their master.

If you kill the owner of a dog that has been trained to attack people, you're just going to let the dog go?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Of for the love of...

By Khorne just accept your decision and move on.

You don't need to give a flying feth what the other people think of your ending choice.

You kill the Reapers Great! The other robots die Not as great. Deal with it.

[JDee3]

Indy_S wrote...

JDee3 wrote...

EDIT:
and if you're still having trouble figuring out if you did it to destory all synthetics then think, would you have done it if it were all humans being destroyed? or any other organic race? if yes then you know you did it because you truly felt it was the right decision

That sounds like http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/16519472']this thread.[/url] Turns out, a lot of people would do it anyway.

It's the beauty of Mass Effect. Everyone has their own Shepard that thinks differently. I personally didn't want to kill synthetics specifically because I saw them as the new guys to the universe, all kids when you think of it.. really well built kids that had a lot to offer to the galaxy and had a lot to learn when it came to being alive and having "..a soul."

destroying them is a huge step back in the evolutionary process that ends up in my mind to be the synthesis result only millions of years later.. it actually may never happen when you destroy reaper tech in them. Keeping them alive.. well they may even get a seat on the council one day

Modifié par JDee3, 22 avril 2013 - 05:34 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Well, that depends on the details of the Reapers' programming which are never explained to the player. Some people like to headcanon their version where the reapers are individually innocent sentient beings who wouldn't hurt a fly if it wasn't for catalyst assuming direct control, and mistakenly use this fanfiction in discussion.

[JDee3]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Well, that depends on the details of the Reapers' programming which are never explained to the player. Some people like to headcanon their version where the reapers are individually innocent sentient beings who wouldn't hurt a fly if it wasn't for catalyst assuming direct control, and mistakenly use this fanfiction in discussion.

Eh.. yeah I don't shun other people's beliefs because they may very well be true but when it comes to decision making in the game (especially the ending and things that are said to happen after each) I only use the information the game gives.. I'd go crazy if I overthought it like some people

Edit:
I'm pretty sure the leviathan dlc touched on that but can't remember

Modifié par JDee3, 22 avril 2013 - 05:38 .

[shodiswe]

I looked at my Paragon Contol ending slides in the EC and they indicated that the Shepard AI would protect peoples rights to have a say in things, it became a Guardian, it was the Catalyst that was behind all the Autrosities the Reapers ever comitted, the Catalyst was space Hitler in a manner of speaking.
By choosing Control I killed Space Hitler, brought Peace and safety to the galaxy and helped rebuild what was lost, like the relays. The Geth didn't die, EDI didn't die and the people on the Citadel didn't get blown up by the explosions that happen in the other endings.
The ending slides didn't indicate that the Reapers would ever turn on the galaxy, the galaxy is safe.
If they would have turned on the galaxy eventualy then we would have recived an endingslide that resembled Refuse, where everyone died and the stargazer isn't human but an Alien speaking ofthe Cycle that got killed.

In the end Control saved a lot of people but at the same time it's a huge sacrifise for Shepard to take on the job of Spectre like Guardian of the galaxy for the rest of it's existance, that is until a threat commes along and wipes out the Citadel.

The Renegade Shepard AI is still a Hero type even if it might be less diplomatic and more rough on the edges. Because all Shepards are fighting the good fight, they are just slightly different idividuals with more or less idealism.

The Question in the end sounds to be, how important is it to you to kill every last Reaper for revenge? How much is it Worth to you personaly because it makes little difference to the Galaxy, asside for the extra people that have to loose their lives.

Most conflicts like these ends with the top leadership killed or imprissoned for their crimes, in a way Sheaprd would become their jailor for the rest of their existance. They also get to work of their endless and eternal debt even if there is no redemption or parole for the Reapers.

Synthesis is the only ending where the Reapers are kind of "forgiven" for their crimes and they stick around by their own choice to repay their debt to society now that the Catalyst is gone.

If you are capable of forgiving the Reapers then pick Synthesis, if you want them punished and imprisoned, the catalyst killed and the galaxy restored and safe protected by a giant space Spectre that's serving democracy, then Control works.

If destroying the the Catalyst, "AND" every LAST Reaper is the only thing that will serve your personal feelings of justice and righteousness, even if it involves the death of billions of innocents, then destroy is your pick.

On top of that I Think Destroy sets a bad example for future Synthetics whose distrust of Organcis will no doubt increase, but that's for the future to worry about.

I think that's the short version of my views of the endings. In the end it's anyones choice, the game has Always been avout player chocies, even if I'm not a fan of how Bioware made these endings or the endmission for that matter. Sorry about the wall of text.

Modifié par shodiswe, 22 avril 2013 - 05:40 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

I don't do it for vengeance. At least I hope that I don't. I do it to avenge the death of countless men, women, children, infants, and even synthetics that died because of the Reapers for God know how many years.

The Reapers have their own different minds. Sovereign did, so did Harbinger. The one on Rannoch did too. When shooting the tube, the Catalyst disappears forever. The Reapers were still acting at their own will until the Red Wave hit them.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 22 avril 2013 - 05:47 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

shodiswe wrote...

On top of that I Think Destroy sets a bad example for future Synthetics whose distrust of Organcis will no doubt increase, but that's for the future to worry about.

I think that's the short version of my views of the endings. In the end it's anyones choice, the game has Always been avout player chocies, even if I'm not a fan of how Bioware made these endings or the endmission for that matter. Sorry about the wall of text.

Really? You think Destroy sets a bad example? Wow. Who the hell is going to know? This is what is going to go into Shepard's report: "After Hackett said nothing was happening, I hit a bunch of buttons on this control panel and passed out from blood loss. Next thing I knew I was buried under rubble. Then a rescue team found me. What happened? Did we win?" Period. That's what's going to be published in the Citadel archives. That is what is going to go in Shepard's report

Do you think Shepard is going to put anything about a conversation with a glowboy had been appearing in her dreams in it? No. Shepard is taking that to her grave. Synthetics won't be the wiser unless they've become clairvoyant. <_<

[JDee3]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

I don't do it for vengeance. At least I hope that I don't. I do it to avenge the death of countless men, women, children, infants, and even synthetics that died because of the Reapers for God know how many years.

The Reapers have their own different minds. Sovereign did, so did Harbinger. The one on Rannoch did too. When shooting the tube, the Catalyst disappears forever. The Reapers were still acting at their own will until the Red Wave hit them.

The reapers were doing what they were last programmed or whatever to do. Nothing was deleted in them so they would continue to act, they got overwritten or just destroyed once the wave hit. 

[JDee3]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

On top of that I Think Destroy sets a bad example for future Synthetics whose distrust of Organcis will no doubt increase, but that's for the future to worry about.

I think that's the short version of my views of the endings. In the end it's anyones choice, the game has Always been avout player chocies, even if I'm not a fan of how Bioware made these endings or the endmission for that matter. Sorry about the wall of text.

Really? You think Destroy sets a bad example? Wow. Who the hell is going to know? This is what is going to go into Shepard's report: "After Hackett said nothing was happening, I hit a bunch of buttons on this control panel and passed out from blood loss. Next thing I knew I was buried under rubble. Then a rescue team found me. What happened? Did we win?" Period. That's what's going to be published in the Citadel archives. That is what is going to go in Shepard's report

Do you think Shepard is going to put anything about a conversation with a glowboy had been appearing in her dreams in it? No. Shepard is taking that to her grave. Synthetics won't be the wiser unless they've become clairvoyant. <_<

That's what YOUR Shepard would do.. if anyone even finds her

[shodiswe]

TimtheEnchanter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This is a good point. And I do remember EDI saying this. But I don't want to keep that in mind for the wrong reasons. I don't want to destroy the Reapers thinking, "Well, EDI did say she would risk non-functionality, so..." In other words, I'm trying to destroy the Reapers without making it seem like I am using what EDI said to my advantage. I don't want it to be like that. I don't know how to fix this.

You don't have to destroy the Reapers themselves, you've already taken down their master.

If you kill the owner of a dog that has been trained to attack people, you're just going to let the dog go?

By picking Control you impound the dog and make sure it won't harm anyone else. It's the paragon treehugger way.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

I don't do it for vengeance. At least I hope that I don't. I do it to avenge the death of countless men, women, children, infants, and even synthetics that died because of the Reapers for God know how many years.

The Reapers have their own different minds. Sovereign did, so did Harbinger. The one on Rannoch did too. When shooting the tube, the Catalyst disappears forever. The Reapers were still acting at their own will until the Red Wave hit them.

If you do it to avenge, then you are taking vengeance. Samara would have no problem with this, and I'm sure you spoke to her. To avenge is to take vengeance on behalf of someone. I do it to avenge those countless men, women, children, infants of all races who died or were turned into abominations by those things for all those years. Shepard is the avatar of vengeance for this cycle, just as Javik is the avatar of vengeance for his. Give the enemy no quarter.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

UGH This is driving crazy! Sometimes I which the other options never existed! You go through ME1, ME2, and even through ME3 knowing that the Reapers had to be stopped. Destroy feels like the one that fits in throughout ALL of the Trilogy, and not just ME3. The mixture of Organics and Synthetics was hinted a bit in ME1 with what Saren said on the Citadel, but that wasn't the "Main Theme" in the first place. Why should it be at the last minute at the end of ME3? He mentioned i because of what Sovereign did to him. The whole thing was all about discovering the Reapers, knowing what they did, knowing that the were returning and that we had to stop them from doing what to did to those in the past. A war 50,000 years in the making. That continues on in ME2, and in ME3 when they arrive. The whole thing with Synthesis and Control came at the last minute. It didn't come in the past.

They killed so many. Why would ANYONE in this known Galaxy forgive them? They were responsble for the countless lives they took? They killed, havested, and indoctrinated for a goal. Sure, the Catalyst changed his motives at the End, but that doesn't take away the fact that they caused so much harm. You can't think of the races in the last cycle prospering because they were all wiped out. No one before us had a change to thrive in the stars because of the Reapers.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 22 avril 2013 - 06:15 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well, you tree huggers keep arguing. I'm going to go blow up stuff on my 360 and have a piece of berry pie. Mmmmm. Mmmmmm.

[shodiswe]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

UGH This is driving crazy! Sometimes I which the other options never existed! You go through ME1, ME2, and even through ME3 knowing that the Reapers had to be stopped. Destroy feels like the one that fits in throughout ALL of the Trilogy, and not just ME3. The mixture of Organics and Synthetics was hinted a bit in ME1 with what Saren said on the Citadel, but that wasn't the "Main Theme" in the first place. Why should it be at the last minute at the end of ME3? He mentioned i because of what Sovereign did to him. The whole thing was all about discovering the Reapers, knowing what they did, knowing that the were returning and that we had to stop them from doing what to did to those in the past. A war 50,000 years in the making. That continues on in ME2, and in ME3 when they arrive. The whole thing with Synthesis and Control came at the last minute. It didn't come in the past.

They killed so many. Why would ANYONE in this known Galaxy forgive them? They were responsble for the countless lives they took? They killed, havested, and indoctrinated for a goal. Sure, the Catalyst changed his motives at the End, but that doesn't take away the fact that they caused so much harm. You can't think of the races in the last cycle prospering because they were all wiped out. No one before us had a change to thrive in the stars because of the Reapers.

That's the difference between being a Soldier and being a Council Spectre. You take on the responsibility to make really tough choices.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

The Spectre or the Soldier?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

UGH This is driving crazy! Sometimes I which the other options never existed! You go through ME1, ME2, and even through ME3 knowing that the Reapers had to be stopped. Destroy feels like the one that fits in throughout ALL of the Trilogy, and not just ME3. The mixture of Organics and Synthetics was hinted a bit in ME1 with what Saren said on the Citadel, but that wasn't the "Main Theme" in the first place. Why should it be at the last minute at the end of ME3? He mentioned i because of what Sovereign did to him. The whole thing was all about discovering the Reapers, knowing what they did, knowing that the were returning and that we had to stop them from doing what to did to those in the past. A war 50,000 years in the making. That continues on in ME2, and in ME3 when they arrive. The whole thing with Synthesis and Control came at the last minute. It didn't come in the past.

Yeah, Mac Walters did a number on us. He created what I call "Walters' Box." It's a trap he gets Paragon players in. The ones who either make Peace, or Side with the Geth.

How to escape Walters' Box: You can easily solve the problem by letting the Quarians blow up the Geth on Rannoch. Make sure you've destroyed the Heretics in ME2 so the Quarian fleet is larger. Sure it will cost you a few war assets, but if you do all the step and fetch it quests and especially if you've got Leviathan you won't have any problem with accruing the correct number for Shepard to survive the Destroy ending.

Without Leviathan you may have to do one dastardly deed as insurance (multi-player always works though): You have to kill Wrex in ME1, destroy Maelon's cure in ME2, let Mordin shoot Maelon. Don't mention the STG sabotage at all. Then you can talk Mordin into faking the genophage cure and he'll go work on the crucible. This will get you the Salarian fleet in addition to full Krogan support under Wreav.

Otherwise you can always gib your save game and make say.... Diana Allers worth 1000 war assets. That should compensate for the lack of multiplayer.

[Xilizhra]

(Putting aside the fact that this comparison makes no sense since, for all its convoluted idiocy, the council was at least still a form of democracy, and Hackett's armada was, as you said, a 'coalition'...)

Only a third, and later a quarter, of the Council could maybe be called democratic. Turians and salarians aren't even particularly fond of democracy for themselves.

Sure you think that. Because you are presuming that everyone will do what you think is 'right'. After all, you have the 'largest guns'...

I wonder what will happen when they start stepping out of line?

I guess that's why you're in charge now though, right? So that - like the Catalyst - if you can see that they can't tale care of themselves, you'll do it for them?

I'm not abolishing the Council. The Reapers are there to check warfare and perform reconstruction projects from the Reaper war.

How to escape Walters' Box: You can easily solve the problem by letting
the Quarians blow up the Geth on Rannoch. Make sure you've destroyed the
Heretics in ME2 so the Quarian fleet is larger. Sure it will cost you a
few war assets, but if you do all the step and fetch it quests and
especially if you've got Leviathan you won't have any problem with
accruing the correct number for Shepard to survive the Destroy ending.

Which is also genocide, so if your Shepard has a moral compass, that won't work either. Just so you know.

They killed so many. Why would ANYONE in this known Galaxy forgive them?
They were responsble for the countless lives they took? They killed,
havested, and indoctrinated for a goal. Sure, the Catalyst changed his
motives at the End, but that doesn't take away the fact that they caused
so much harm. You can't think of the races in the last cycle prospering
because they were all wiped out. No one before us had a change to
thrive in the stars because of the Reapers.

The Reapers aren't directly responsible for anything. What you're doing is effectively declaring that, say, the train cars used to transport Holocaust victims are themselves malevolent.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 avril 2013 - 06:26 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

UGH This is driving crazy! Sometimes I which the other options never existed! You go through ME1, ME2, and even through ME3 knowing that the Reapers had to be stopped. Destroy feels like the one that fits in throughout ALL of the Trilogy, and not just ME3. The mixture of Organics and Synthetics was hinted a bit in ME1 with what Saren said on the Citadel, but that wasn't the "Main Theme" in the first place. Why should it be at the last minute at the end of ME3? He mentioned i because of what Sovereign did to him. The whole thing was all about discovering the Reapers, knowing what they did, knowing that the were returning and that we had to stop them from doing what to did to those in the past. A war 50,000 years in the making. That continues on in ME2, and in ME3 when they arrive. The whole thing with Synthesis and Control came at the last minute. It didn't come in the past.

Yeah, Mac Walters did a number on us. He created what I call "Walters' Box." It's a trap he gets Paragon players in. The ones who either make Peace, or Side with the Geth.

How to escape Walters' Box: You can easily solve the problem by letting the Quarians blow up the Geth on Rannoch. Make sure you've destroyed the Heretics in ME2 so the Quarian fleet is larger. Sure it will cost you a few war assets, but if you do all the step and fetch it quests and especially if you've got Leviathan you won't have any problem with accruing the correct number for Shepard to survive the Destroy ending.

Without Leviathan you may have to do one dastardly deed as insurance (multi-player always works though): You have to kill Wrex in ME1, destroy Maelon's cure in ME2, let Mordin shoot Maelon. Don't mention the STG sabotage at all. Then you can talk Mordin into faking the genophage cure and he'll go work on the crucible. This will get you the Salarian fleet in addition to full Krogan support under Wreav.

Otherwise you can always gib your save game and make say.... Diana Allers worth 1000 war assets. That should compensate for the lack of multiplayer.

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not doing all that Bul****.

[Xilizhra]

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not doing all that Bul****.

Good on you.

Now, the easiest way out of all is to download MEHEM, which will give you Destroy without, well, destroying anything except the Reapers. Which seems to work for a lot of people.

[JDee3]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

UGH This is driving crazy! Sometimes I which the other options never existed! You go through ME1, ME2, and even through ME3 knowing that the Reapers had to be stopped. Destroy feels like the one that fits in throughout ALL of the Trilogy, and not just ME3. The mixture of Organics and Synthetics was hinted a bit in ME1 with what Saren said on the Citadel, but that wasn't the "Main Theme" in the first place. Why should it be at the last minute at the end of ME3? He mentioned i because of what Sovereign did to him. The whole thing was all about discovering the Reapers, knowing what they did, knowing that the were returning and that we had to stop them from doing what to did to those in the past. A war 50,000 years in the making. That continues on in ME2, and in ME3 when they arrive. The whole thing with Synthesis and Control came at the last minute. It didn't come in the past.

Husk were in the first game also.. they were organic to synthetic. EDI was in the first game.. she had a mind of her own. If you talk to Tali about the geth you can argue that they did what anyone (as in organic being) would do in fighting the quarians because somewhere deep they had minds of their own (I know this because I just played it yesterday).  Then Legion comes into the picture in ME2 and he's always asking if he has a soul. People are being taken by collectors to make a reaper out of them which is synthetic. Saren in ME1 is controlled by the reapers. The illusive man wants to find a way to control the reapers throughout all of ME3 and I guess the end of ME2 with the human reaper. In project overlord Cerberus was trying to find a way to control the geth. The geth were being controlled in ME3. And when you think of it being controlled sucks throughout the series and if the reapers are alive thik how much they would hate that.. they rather die (I just thought of this)

but yeah my point is these things were in every game even if they were subtle 

[adayaday]

Xilizhra wrote...

(Putting aside the fact that this comparison makes no sense since, for all its convoluted idiocy, the council was at least still a form of democracy, and Hackett's armada was, as you said, a 'coalition'...)

Only a third, and later a quarter, of the Council could maybe be called democratic. Turians and salarians aren't even particularly fond of democracy for themselves.

Sure you think that. Because you are presuming that everyone will do what you think is 'right'. After all, you have the 'largest guns'...

I wonder what will happen when they start stepping out of line?

I guess that's why you're in charge now though, right? So that - like the Catalyst - if you can see that they can't tale care of themselves, you'll do it for them?

I'm not abolishing the Council. The Reapers are there to check warfare and perform reconstruction projects from the Reaper war.

How to escape Walters' Box: You can easily solve the problem by letting
the Quarians blow up the Geth on Rannoch. Make sure you've destroyed the
Heretics in ME2 so the Quarian fleet is larger. Sure it will cost you a
few war assets, but if you do all the step and fetch it quests and
especially if you've got Leviathan you won't have any problem with
accruing the correct number for Shepard to survive the Destroy ending.

Which is also genocide, so if your Shepard has a moral compass, that won't work either. Just so you know.

They killed so many. Why would ANYONE in this known Galaxy forgive them?
They were responsble for the countless lives they took? They killed,
havested, and indoctrinated for a goal. Sure, the Catalyst changed his
motives at the End, but that doesn't take away the fact that they caused
so much harm. You can't think of the races in the last cycle prospering
because they were all wiped out. No one before us had a change to
thrive in the stars because of the Reapers.

The Reapers aren't directly responsible for anything. What you're doing is effectively declaring that, say, the train cars used to transport Holocaust victims are themselves malevolent.

First off: my moral compass told me that the alternative option to destroy the geth heratics is to basically brain wash them into obidiance(but you wouldn't mind about right?).
Second:last time i checked the trasport trains during the holocaust did not taunted and goaded its passengers about how jewish or black or whatever they are and how they should be greatfull for their comming fate.

[drayfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

(Putting aside the fact that this comparison makes no sense since, for all its convoluted idiocy, the council was at least still a form of democracy, and Hackett's armada was, as you said, a 'coalition'...)

Only a third, and later a quarter, of the Council could maybe be called democratic. Turians and salarians aren't even particularly fond of democracy for themselves.

Sure you think that. Because you are presuming that everyone will do what you think is 'right'. After all, you have the 'largest guns'...

I wonder what will happen when they start stepping out of line?

I guess that's why you're in charge now though, right? So that - like the Catalyst - if you can see that they can't tale care of themselves, you'll do it for them?

I'm not abolishing the Council. The Reapers are there to check warfare and perform reconstruction projects from the Reaper war.

Firstly: the council itself is the cooperative, democratic process.  Maybe these races don't play that nice on their own turf, but they still necessarily engage in the process.  Your argument isn't even nitpicking, it's just contrdictory.

Secondly: you're not quite grasping the fundamental hypocrisy in claiming democratic autonomy for everyone, while you have just become the universe's unquestionable totalitarian overlord.  The all-powerful dictator who claims he's a great guy is still an all-powerful dictator.

And yet again: the Catalyst thought that he was just doing what was necessary for others too.  He knew better than everyone else how the universe should be run.



EDIT: By the way: I have no horse in this race.  I hate every one of the endings with a limitless passion.  I just don't think it's helpful to pretend that any one is better than any other.  They are all specifically designed to be vile, hypocritical contradictions - to up-end your moral convictions and leave you compromised.  To pretend otherwise just strikes me as rather disingenuous.

Modifié par drayfish, 22 avril 2013 - 06:53 .