219 réponses à ce sujet

[TheWill]

as long as their memory and sacrifice are remembered... as long as the fact that they all stood side by side at the end is remembered.. then i can live with destroy just fine... the only way it could all go bad is if their sacrifice wasnt remembered and machines were built once more to be nothing more than tools..

but there is no mention of any of this in the extended cut.. none of them tell us enough for us to feel completely comfortable with our choices... but if my shep did survive id like to think he would have set done the rules for the new galaxy.. a new council.. no more organics vs synthetics.. just peaace.. until the next threat.. which i hope isnt organic or synthetic.. something else.. energy or plants or something

[Xilizhra]

Firstly: the council itself is the cooperative, democratic process. Maybe these races don't play that nice on their own turf, but they still necessarily engage in the process. Your argument isn't even nitpicking, it's just contrdictory.

Democratic on what level? Only the asari Councilor shows any signs of being possibly elected.

Secondly: you're not quite grasping the fundamental hypocrisy in claiming democratic autonomy for everyone, while you have just become the universe's unquestionable totalitarian overlord. The all-powerful dictator who claims he's a great guy is still an all-powerful dictator.

Just because, say, the United States could flex its military might and become totalitarian warlord of Mexico if it wanted to doesn't mean that it will. Similarly, just because I could become the totalitarian overlord of any galactic race doesn't mean that I will.

[Argolas]

Xilizhra wrote...

Firstly: the council itself is the cooperative, democratic process. Maybe these races don't play that nice on their own turf, but they still necessarily engage in the process. Your argument isn't even nitpicking, it's just contrdictory.

Democratic on what level? Only the asari Councilor shows any signs of being possibly elected.

Gotta agree here. The Council is not a very democratic authority and as far as I know largely unchecked. I don't know how  a mandate is given to a councillor, but the ME1 ending suggests that it's not by a democratic election by the species the councillor represents. However, the power seems to lie largely in the respective government itself. The turian military is led by the Primarch of the Hyrarchy, not by the Turian councillor. The Alliance fleet is led by Alliance Command and not by Udina (thank god). The Salarians seem a little unclear, both the Dalatrass and the councillor can grant you Salarian forces. Only in the Asari's case, the Councillor seems to be the one to talk to.

As far as I understand, the Council has legislative power in matters that concern multiple species and executive power over the Citadel fleet (which probably every species has to supply in part, the flagship being the Ascension) as well as the Spectres.

Oh well, got a little OT here. I find it interesting though.

[Xilizhra]

Gotta agree here. The Council is not a very democratic authority and as far as I know largely unchecked. I don't know how a mandate is given to a councillor, but the ME1 ending suggests that it's not by a democratic election by the species the councillor represents. However, the power seems to lie largely in the respective government itself. The turian military is led by the Primarch of the Hyrarchy, not by the Turian councillor. The Alliance fleet is led by Alliance Command and not by Udina (thank god). The Salarians seem a little unclear, both the Dalatrass and the councillor can grant you Salarian forces. Only in the Asari's case, the Councillor seems to be the one to talk to.

The asari have the least unified government, so it makes sense that the Councilor is the one who pulls their interests together in matters of galactic importance.

As an aside, your signature is absurd, as Aratoht was doomed regardless; without blowing up the Alpha Relay, the Reapers would have taken it. This is in no way comparable to Destroy, where alternatives exist to not kill every last synthetic.

[Argolas]

Xilizhra wrote...

As an aside, your signature is absurd, as Aratoht was doomed regardless; without blowing up the Alpha Relay, the Reapers would have taken it. This is in no way comparable to Destroy, where alternatives exist to not kill every last synthetic.

That does not matter. Maybe they could have evacuated, it is likely that the Reapers would have ignored a star system that has only 300,000 people (thus not worth a harvest) and no resources to speak of long for enough so they would have had a chance. That does not make a difference.

[Mangalores]

Xilizhra wrote...

The asari have the least unified government, so it makes sense that the Councilor is the one who pulls their interests together in matters of galactic importance.

...

They seem to actually have the most unified govrnment. A federal system of several levels with embedded direct democratic elements and stabilizing factors via the authority of the Matriachs which means vast populations are involved in the decision processes and consensus.

The Asari have the least centralized system which says nothing about its unity. A centralized command structure like that of the Turians can still lead to faction building as different branches in the hierarchy build up independant power centers. Even worse if each faction controls their own supply of guns.

[Xilizhra]

Argolas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As an aside, your signature is absurd, as Aratoht was doomed regardless; without blowing up the Alpha Relay, the Reapers would have taken it. This is in no way comparable to Destroy, where alternatives exist to not kill every last synthetic.

That does not matter. Maybe they could have evacuated, it is likely that the Reapers would have ignored a star system that has only 300,000 people (thus not worth a harvest) and no resources to speak of long for enough so they would have had a chance. That does not make a difference.

If you read the planetary descriptions, the Reapers just orbitally bombard planets that aren't worth harvesting, until everything on it is dead. They did the same to Bekenstein, among others. The only places they ever ignore are tiny mining/research stations, and they almost always destroy even those.

[Wayning_Star]

Xilizhra wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As an aside, your signature is absurd, as Aratoht was doomed regardless; without blowing up the Alpha Relay, the Reapers would have taken it. This is in no way comparable to Destroy, where alternatives exist to not kill every last synthetic.

That does not matter. Maybe they could have evacuated, it is likely that the Reapers would have ignored a star system that has only 300,000 people (thus not worth a harvest) and no resources to speak of long for enough so they would have had a chance. That does not make a difference.

If you read the planetary descriptions, the Reapers just orbitally bombard planets that aren't worth harvesting, until everything on it is dead. They did the same to Bekenstein, among others. The only places they ever ignore are tiny mining/research stations, and they almost always destroy even those.

what? why'd they miss earth so long ago? I've never read that in the codex? I'll have to go check...but reaps only are interested in planets with 'life' that's advanced enough to profit from their 'preservation', i.e. build more reaperstuff.

[Xilizhra]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As an aside, your signature is absurd, as Aratoht was doomed regardless; without blowing up the Alpha Relay, the Reapers would have taken it. This is in no way comparable to Destroy, where alternatives exist to not kill every last synthetic.

That does not matter. Maybe they could have evacuated, it is likely that the Reapers would have ignored a star system that has only 300,000 people (thus not worth a harvest) and no resources to speak of long for enough so they would have had a chance. That does not make a difference.

If you read the planetary descriptions, the Reapers just orbitally bombard planets that aren't worth harvesting, until everything on it is dead. They did the same to Bekenstein, among others. The only places they ever ignore are tiny mining/research stations, and they almost always destroy even those.

what? why'd they miss earth so long ago? I've never read that in the codex? I'll have to go check...but reaps only are interested in planets with 'life' that's advanced enough to profit from their 'preservation', i.e. build more reaperstuff.

Well, they ignore planets without spacefaring technology, but that's all.

[DecCylonus]

Officers in wartime often have to sacrifice some of their soldiers. It is likely that they have befriended some of those soldiers. They also tend to know all of them as people, at least a little bit, because they spend a lot of time with them. When war comes, those officers have to expend some of their soldiers' lives in order to win. It doesn't make those officers bad or uncaring people to do that. It's just the ugly reality of war. Shepard's choice is made more tragic in that he/she has to sacrifice an entire race.

IMO, the blame for all of it falls on the Catalyst. It insists up the problem of organic / synthetic conflict, and on resolving it on its own terms. It could have simply surrendered once it realized this cycle was different, but it forces Shepard to use the Crucible instead. There is no way of using the Crucible without consequences, so the Catalyst owns whatever Shepard chooses.

[Xilizhra]

Officers in wartime often have to sacrifice some of their soldiers. It is likely that they have befriended some of those soldiers. They also tend to know all of them as people, at least a little bit, because they spend a lot of time with them. When war comes, those officers have to expend some of their soldiers' lives in order to win. It doesn't make those officers bad or uncaring people to do that. It's just the ugly reality of war. Shepard's choice is made more tragic in that he/she has to sacrifice an entire race.

That'd be applicable if Shepard actually did have to sacrifice an entire race. In point of fact, she does not. Killing all synthetics is a choice made in the presence of other options.

[Wayning_Star]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As an aside, your signature is absurd, as Aratoht was doomed regardless; without blowing up the Alpha Relay, the Reapers would have taken it. This is in no way comparable to Destroy, where alternatives exist to not kill every last synthetic.

That does not matter. Maybe they could have evacuated, it is likely that the Reapers would have ignored a star system that has only 300,000 people (thus not worth a harvest) and no resources to speak of long for enough so they would have had a chance. That does not make a difference.

If you read the planetary descriptions, the Reapers just orbitally bombard planets that aren't worth harvesting, until everything on it is dead. They did the same to Bekenstein, among others. The only places they ever ignore are tiny mining/research stations, and they almost always destroy even those.

what? why'd they miss earth so long ago? I've never read that in the codex? I'll have to go check...but reaps only are interested in planets with 'life' that's advanced enough to profit from their 'preservation', i.e. build more reaperstuff.

Well, they ignore planets without spacefaring technology, but that's all.

actually it's the reaper tech that trips their triggers...so to speak, according to the catalyst anyways. That's the straw that the camel cannot take any longer.

Basis for the MEU?

[Wayning_Star]

DecCylonus wrote...

Officers in wartime often have to sacrifice some of their soldiers. It is likely that they have befriended some of those soldiers. They also tend to know all of them as people, at least a little bit, because they spend a lot of time with them. When war comes, those officers have to expend some of their soldiers' lives in order to win. It doesn't make those officers bad or uncaring people to do that. It's just the ugly reality of war. Shepard's choice is made more tragic in that he/she has to sacrifice an entire race.

IMO, the blame for all of it falls on the Catalyst. It insists up the problem of organic / synthetic conflict, and on resolving it on its own terms. It could have simply surrendered once it realized this cycle was different, but it forces Shepard to use the Crucible instead. There is no way of using the Crucible without consequences, so the Catalyst owns whatever Shepard chooses.

no really, they just 'do', it's in the  manual..

[Wayning_Star]

the arrival DLC was quite laughable really..talk about 'hype'..folks likes hype tho.. sells news'n other 'stuff'..

[Wayning_Star]

forced dedication is just a parade..

[TheWill]

the catalyst has the ability to create peace between organics and synthetics.... it could force synthetics to accept its reaper code.. and could indoctrinate politicians/military leaders and create laws that punish those that attack synthetics... we dont need to walk together hand in hand to have peace.. just tolerance...

its all the more likely its stopping us and them from reaching a point where we can quite easily destroy it and its reaper forces... self preservation is its motivation..and it learns with every harvest... why would it want to stop...

[Mangalores]

Xilizhra wrote...

That'd be applicable if Shepard actually did have to sacrifice an entire race. In point of fact, she does not. Killing all synthetics is a choice made in the presence of other options.

So why didn't the Catalyst back down? Like having all Reapers cease fire at once? It keeps shooting => negotiations are at an end and its alternatives not trustworthy otherwise it wouldn't bother about ceasing hostilities for a couple of minutes to show it's sincere. Instead it keeps shooting => it perceives you as a threat that can't be allowed a minute without pressure.

The game goes both ways. The Catalyst has a gun to your head and tells you to choose something. You usually only do that if you want someone to surrender.

Hence it makes choices whose repercussions you don't know even less viable. Control could end with you being the controlled, Synthesis could end with the Reapers controlling everything. The knowledge of the alternatives at that stage are flimsy at best.

[Xilizhra]

So why didn't the Catalyst back down? Like having all Reapers cease fire at once? It keeps shooting => negotiations are at an end and its alternatives not trustworthy otherwise it wouldn't bother about ceasing hostilities for a couple of minutes to show it's sincere. Instead it keeps shooting => it perceives you as a threat that can't be allowed a minute without pressure.

I don't think the Catalyst directly controls the Reapers, which is why Control requires a huge blue beam to shoot out and rope all of them directly back under control. They may have drifted, like the keepers did away from the Reapers. And if it wants me dead, Destroy is probably a trap too, so I have nothing to lose.

[Wayning_Star]

TheWill wrote...

the catalyst has the ability to create peace between organics and synthetics.... it could force synthetics to accept its reaper code.. and could indoctrinate politicians/military leaders and create laws that punish those that attack synthetics... we dont need to walk together hand in hand to have peace.. just tolerance...

its all the more likely its stopping us and them from reaching a point where we can quite easily destroy it and its reaper forces... self preservation is its motivation..and it learns with every harvest... why would it want to stop...

I think it only seems that way from our organic POV. I'm thinking that the reaps and their operating system catalyst don't really need any 'instinct' such as survival. They don't exist, like organics, so they don't envision or imagine or 'realize' any need to survive. They just exist or don't. No drama..

I think fans needs to contemplate what synthesis with synthetics reality/being actually might be, as that effects the ideal relationship with destruction of same. (we either need them or we don't to survive?)

In the synthetic MEU.. it's the hard reality to over look. The whole idea is just about being Apex...or not.

[Wayning_Star]

Xilizhra wrote...

So why didn't the Catalyst back down? Like having all Reapers cease fire at once? It keeps shooting => negotiations are at an end and its alternatives not trustworthy otherwise it wouldn't bother about ceasing hostilities for a couple of minutes to show it's sincere. Instead it keeps shooting => it perceives you as a threat that can't be allowed a minute without pressure.

I don't think the Catalyst directly controls the Reapers, which is why Control requires a huge blue beam to shoot out and rope all of them directly back under control. They may have drifted, like the keepers did away from the Reapers. And if it wants me dead, Destroy is probably a trap too, so I have nothing to lose.

they comment on time frames and 'clip' association with real time. Like such cosmic battle can 'stop' in an instant?

I've always wondered why that came up? (considering it takes decades/centuries to accomplish the slightest goals post decisions?)

[Mangalores]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think the Catalyst directly controls the Reapers, which is why Control requires a huge blue beam to shoot out and rope all of them directly back under control. They may have drifted, like the keepers did away from the Reapers. And if it wants me dead, Destroy is probably a trap too, so I have nothing to lose.

He explicitly says he does control the reapers: "I control the Reapers, they are my solution..." How could he get more literal? (1:00)

Modifié par Mangalores, 22 avril 2013 - 05:58 .

[Xilizhra]

Mangalores wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think the Catalyst directly controls the Reapers, which is why Control requires a huge blue beam to shoot out and rope all of them directly back under control. They may have drifted, like the keepers did away from the Reapers. And if it wants me dead, Destroy is probably a trap too, so I have nothing to lose.

He explicitly says he does control the reapers: "I control the Reapers, they are my solution..." How could he get more literal? (1:00)

It also says that it embodies the collective intelligence of the Reapers, making it sound rather more passive. The Catalyst is full of contradictions.

[Mangalores]

Xilizhra wrote...

...
It also says that it embodies the collective intelligence of the Reapers, making it sound rather more passive. The Catalyst is full of contradictions.

So it's bull****ting you which is why we kill it.

Sorry, but that's grasping at straws. Being the collective intelligence is not a statement that invalidates the control claim, particularly when it makes clear it predates and created the Reapers. And the point is: It should show it does control stuff. If it can't or won't, negotiations are over and shoot it.

[Xilizhra]

Mangalores wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

...
It also says that it embodies the collective intelligence of the Reapers, making it sound rather more passive. The Catalyst is full of contradictions.

So it's bull****ting you which is why we kill it.

Sorry, but that's grasping at straws. Being the collective intelligence is not a statement that invalidates the control claim, particularly when it makes clear it predates and created the Reapers. And the point is: It should show it does control stuff. If it can't or won't, negotiations are over and shoot it.

However, the fact that the Reapers are attacking the Crucible, which the Catalyst wants to keep around because it's required for a new solution, does invalidate that. In addition to the fact that the Crucible is necessary for Control at all, because if the Catalyst was already controlling everything, Shepard could just grab the console and upload without needing the blue beam.

[Mangalores]

quote]Xilizhra wrote...

...
However, the fact that the Reapers are attacking the Crucible, which the Catalyst wants to keep around because it's required for a new solution, does invalidate that. ...
[/quote]

Only if you believe a word it says. If you want to play it this way it should tell you if it can't control the Reapers, instead it's lying to your face.