8 réponses à ce sujet

[Zachara]

Alright, I believe this is more of a lore/science question and I have no idea where else to put it other than here.

Everybody remembers the opening sequence of ME1 with Joker annoucing the approach to the ship's comm systems and the jump through the Arturus Prime relay to the Exodus Cluster. We hit the relay and pop out on the other side. Then he goes on to indicate the results of the 'corridor shot' by saying: "Thrusters: check. Navigation: check. Internal emissions sink (I actually think this is supposed to be 'sync', but it doesn't matter for this post so I'll leave it) engaged. All systems: online. Drift: just under 1500 K."

Now, direct from the wiki, this is how Mass relays work: "Mass relays function by creating a virtually mass-free "corridor" of space-time between each other. This can propel a starship across enormous distances that would take centuries to traverse, even at FTL speeds. Before a vessel can travel, the relay must be given the amount of mass to transit by the ship's pilot before it is moved into the approach corridor. When a relay is activated, it aligns itself with the corresponding relay before propelling the ship across space."

When Joker approached the relay, he sent it the calculated mass transit and destination, calculated an approach vector to hit it, and then let the relay do it's work. As most know from ME2 (and if you haven't, this is NOT A SPOILER), drift of several hundred kilometers is common in standard relay transit as the galaxy isn't a stable place and things are moving around/ getting knocked about/ being obliterated by exploding suns/gravitation wells move stuff/etc. It's also fatal when a large fleet of ships has to pass through and don't generally want to hit each other and in places like the galactic core near the black hole(s) unless you have advanced safety protocols activated in the relay in use which make the 'corridor' more acurate.

My question is this: If the outcome of our ship going through one of the relays is completely dependant on the information you first give it before the 'jump' ("mass and transit destination") and how accurate the 'safety protocols' on the relay are, how is it that Joker can modify where the relay spits us out and make it more accurate during transit when the relays calculate the corridor 'length' before transit? 

Can he modify the space-corridor while inside it somehow? Is he in constant contact with the destination-relay and somehow tracking how 'long'/'short' the corridor needs to be to get the ship to pop out in a more accurate spot? If so, how the heck is that even possible when the corridors are set 'strings' between one relay and another  and how does it depend on his skill as a pilot? And if the corridors can be changed during transit, wouldn't that be more of a computer reaction time to the relay's updates in transit then a physical reaction or mental calculation on his part? 

If he can't control how 'long' or how 'short' the corridor is without safety protocols, there is no way he can boast about "hitting a target the size of a pinhead" because he didn't actually do anything: he just punched in numbers and the relays did the rest.

Now, I think he can actually modify the corridor somehow, or he wouldn't be able to do what he does at the end of ME3 (I will not spoil).

But how? 


Advanced thanks to anybody who reads my crap. You are doubly awesome if you give me an answer.

[caradoc2000]

The problem with science fiction lore is that because it is, well, fiction - we only have access to bits and pieces of it, in this case the few codex entries. I don't think any of us here can give you a definite answer about the workings of relay travel. Presumably the relays come with some kind of manual, otherwise how would the humans have beem able to get the Charon relay operational so quickly after it was discovered,

As to the emissions sink, isn't that supposed to be the stealth system heat sink thing-y, which prevents the Normandy from being detected by sensors.

[The Grey Ranger]

I'll admit this is a bit of speculation, but it relates to finding the reaper iff in ME2. During one of the conversations somebody speculates that the relays have two modes one that is much more accurate, allowing for safe travel past the Omega 4 relay. That would suggest that there is some error "built in" for non reaper/non collector users.

Besides Joker is like a lot of pilots, he thinks he's the best to ever sit in a cockpit.

[Zachara]

caradoc2000 wrote...

The problem with science fiction lore is that because it is, well, fiction - we only have access to bits and pieces of it, in this case the few codex entries. I don't think any of us here can give you a definite answer about the workings of relay travel. Presumably the relays come with some kind of manual, otherwise how would the humans have beem able to get the Charon relay operational so quickly after it was discovered,

As to the emissions sink, isn't that supposed to be the stealth system heat sink thing-y, which prevents the Normandy from being detected by sensors.

Think you're totally right about the emissions sink..

Oh, I'm fully aware that it's science fiction lore and we only have a little to go on. I mean, I'm not here to ask how the relays actually work because then Bioware would have to tell us how they figured out how to fold space into wormholes (scientifically possible, but the amount of calculation behind that kind of transit system and the ridiculous amount of power required to use it... yeesh - GIVE US THE SECRETS OF THE UNIVERSE BIOWARE). 

I'm just asking: Within the confines of the 'rules' set up by the universe in ME, how can we make it so that a drift of 1500 K is good from Joker, Kaiden, and Nhilus' point of view? 

This is kinda of similar to how Star Wars says that the Falcon made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs. When everybody found out that that was a form of measurement and not a measrument of time, they were able to come up with: "Solo was not referring directly to his ship's speed when he made this claim. Instead, he was reffering to the shorter route he was able to travel by shirting the nearby Maw black hole cluster, thus making the run in under the standard distance. By moving closer to the black holes, Solo managed to cut the distance down to about 11.5 parsecs."

I'm trying to come up with similar... well, I guess BS would be the word... when it comes to how much control the pilot has during transit within the sub-space corridor.

I was thinking: Perhaps because the relays can control the length of the 'tube' or 'corridor' created (yes, I know I'm oversimplifying this A LOT), maybe the pilot can control at what point of the 'width' within the tube they can make their ship come out if the relay controls the 'length' of the corridor. With the advanced safety protocols engaged, the pilot wouldn't really need to deal with the 'width' because the relay does it for the pilot.

Does that make any sense within the context of the lore?   

[caradoc2000]

Within the confines of the 'rules' set up by the universe in ME, how can
we make it so that a drift of 1500 K is good from Joker, Kaiden, and
Nhilus' point of view?

I wouldn't be any of those ME party members,

Modifié par caradoc2000, 22 avril 2013 - 04:28 .

[capn233]

Standard relay transit protocols are not pinpoint accurate. Grey Ranger already pointed this out, and now you know that this was not something invented in ME2 as it appears in the first 5 minutes of ME1.

Here is why I think Joker is bragging and how it is relevant (slight interpolation). Mass relays are mainly like sling shots though, think of them as multiplying your velocity. The more accurate your original velocity vector is with regard to the destination, the more likely you are to end up closer to the right spot.

This isn't the same as George Lucas putting nonsense dialogue into Star Wars and then adjusting it later, IMO.

It is "emission sink" like a heat sink because it sinks emissions. Really just sinks "radiation" in everything but the visible band (since nobody uses visual sensors apparently).

Modifié par capn233, 22 avril 2013 - 04:32 .

[Zachara]

capn233 wrote...

Standard relay transit protocols are not pinpoint accurate. Grey Ranger already pointed this out, and now you know that this was not something invented in ME2 as it appears in the first 5 minutes of ME1.

Here is why I think Joker is bragging and how it is relevant (slight interpolation). Mass relays are mainly like sling shots though, think of them as multiplying your velocity. The more accurate your original velocity vector is with regard to the destination, the more likely you are to end up closer to the right spot.

This isn't the same as George Lucas putting nonsense dialogue into Star Wars and then adjusting it later, IMO.

It is "emission sink" like a heat sink because it sinks emissions. Really just sinks "radiation" in everything but the visible band (since nobody uses visual sensors apparently).

The question I posed never referred to the whether or not the protocols were pinpoint accurate. Perhaps, I suck at expressing what I wish to know (it has happened quite a bit), but I'm not asking about the relay's ability to pinpoint an 'exit' point, I'm asking about what the pilot's ability to pinpoint the 'exit'. In fact, I already mentioned everything you said in that first part of your post in my original question post. Specifically: "drift of several hundred kilometers is common in standard relay transit (etc...)". I believe you're reffering to the fact that I mentioned ME2 specifically, but it's quite clear that I'm refering to a lore entry and not an 'I'm-playing-mass-effect-for-the-first-time-and-think-this-is-happening' entry. Please understand that I'm not trying to antagonize you in any way, but am pointing out that I just don't understand why you posted this first part when I've already said it. 

The main point of confusion that I find in the second part of your post is that the mass relays are never described as a sling-shot and are specifically identified as a kind of sub-space conduit in all the lore. If the relays are a kind of accelrator 'sling-shot', as you suggest, then there is nothing to slow the 'shot' down in space - the ship would just keep going at the initial velocity and not stop unless it hit something. If it is a sling-shot effect, what's slowing the ships down when they come out? The engines? Not bloody likely since they can't match the power of the relays in any way, shape, or form. 
Unless... can we assume that the element zero energies within the relays allow for both acceleration and decceleration without tearing the ship apart somehow? Hermm... that might work. I'd have to check more of the references and codex entries to see if the techology somewhat matches the theory though.

Having a sub-space wormhole that folds or bends space seems much more practical though  (if not ridiculously powerful to the point "WTF-MATES?!") to keep the ship intact during transit and to keep the power of transit firmly in the control of the relays and the builders that made them.
Ehhhhh, sorry if I ruffled some feathers with a Star Wars reference  (because that's what I got from that part of the post: that because I use star wars as an example of stretching out awesome/fake/imaginary science, it invalid as an example because it isn't Mass Effect). My question does relate to something not exactly like, but similar to, what was done for the Kessel Run so that the originating lore was correct. This isn't me trying to be a creepy wierd Star Wars fan trying to usurp Mass Effect lore with example from Star Wars - it's all just speculation within the confines of Mass Effect Univserse lore. The Kessel Run defence was completely constructed by Star Wars fans and was a brilliant way to get around something that critized the cool-fictonal-space-science Lucas created for the Star Wars universe. That's all I'm trying to achieve here - something that let's me make sense of an oversized plot-device in the Mass Effect Awesomness. Mostly so I can write terrible fanfiction about it. *shrug*

Must think on this some more (because this is just WAY to much fun!).

[Zachara]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Within the confines of the 'rules' set up by the universe in ME, how can
we make it so that a drift of 1500 K is good from Joker, Kaiden, and
Nhilus' point of view?

I wouldn't be any of those ME party members,

To clarify: I'm using Joker, Kaiden, and Nhilus as representative of the opnion 'learned persons' within the Mass Effect universe. So, I'm using their opinion as a base for everyone else's opinion within the world...

Not sure if that make sense.

[capn233]

I am not offended.

Slingshot is an imprecise analogy, but to go more general mass effect technology is not propulsion technology per se. For standard FTL the mass effect core is reducing the mass allowing the standard engines to accelerate it past c.

Relays are just described as creating a "virtually mass free corridor of space-time," I don't think the term subspace exists in this game. In any event, space is mostly empty, even on the scale of the galaxy. So the mass they are probably talking about is actually the ship when it is in the corridor. Hence the weird "slingshot" analogy I made... it drastically lowers the mass of the ship to near zero so it achieves absurd speeds. As above, you need some motive force (thrusters) to take advantage of the relay.

I don't think it is impossible to reconcile the fact that relay protocols induce error and that there are pilot factors that induce error. There isn't anything to contradict the beginning of ME1 in this regard. As to why they think 1500k is good, well because it is exposition so they are telling us it is good. The point is not so much to illustrate relay technology but to introduce the fact that Joker is a good pilot.

I would say that in the end you just have to accept that they knew what they are talking about.