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Able to live up to the high bar set?


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#226
In Exile

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jillabender wrote...
As far as how the lack of VO can actually lend itself to stepping into the role of the character - I would say that it depends on how specific you need the NPC reactions to be in order to preserve the illusion that they're reacting to the specific demeanour and personality you've given your PC, and to the way you imagined your PC delivering each line.


I think that's a very insightful point!

It sounds as though your requirements for preserving that illusion are more stringent than mine (which is completely fair), and if that's the case, I can understand why you'd feel that a silent protagonist doesn't offer any particular advantage.


Yes, I think that's exactly right. I hadn't read this part of your post when writing my response above, and it sounds like you hit the nail on the head.

For me, although a voiced protagonist limits the range of personalities my character can have, it also adds something by creating a level of micro-reactivity that creates a tighter illusion of the character being part of the game world. So, a voiced protagonist doesn't necessarily impede my ability to role-play in itself (as I discovered with ME1), it just requires me to adjust my approach a little.


That makes sense. Whereas for me, a character doesn't exist unless there's that tighter boundary to start with, so I never find the voice chafing. Huh. This discussion was great!

I would say, though, that in the case of DA2, it would actually have been easier for me to get into the role of Hawke if he or she had been silent, because I wouldn't have run into the problem of being put off by Hawke's demeanour. My difficulty is that while I can see the NPCs reacting to Hawke's way of expressing him or herself in each situation, Hawke's specific way of expressing him or herself isn't something I can relate to, and that leaves me feeling disconnected.


I can appreciate that. For me, Hawke was very much predictable. Especiallly jerkass saracstic Hawke, who is a lot like what I'm like in public with people I don't know very well.

That's not to say that I need the game to directly and unambiguously acknowledge everything that I imagine about a voiced protagonist - it's just that what I imagine about a voiced protagonist needs to stay very close to the details actually presented in the game, or it won't feel organic to me. That's why I personally feel that voiced protagonists work best when the character has a fairly firmly established personality, and the player's role is in shaping the expression and development of that personality.


Okay, I have a question. Why don't you feel this about the silent protagonist? Going back to the point about reactvity, I feel this has to be the case for all PCs. So my problem with the Warden is that I'm actually looking for the game to tell me what boundaries there are, but it absolutely refuses until it punches me in the face with one (like making me realize that for 99% of the lines, the writers intended the delivery not to be sarcasic, so I have to realize that I can't play sarcastic PCs). 

And that was my difficulty with Hawke - straying too far from what I was presented with didn't feel organic, and I had a hard time connecting with what I was presented with, although I do find Hawke entertaining. Of course, that's very subjective on my part - the kind of character that one relates to and enjoys connecting with is a very individual thing.


That's the problem I had with the Warden. Except for the entertaining part. I found the origins brilliant, and it wouldn't have mattered to me anywhere near as much if the PC was silent if that was what all DA:O was like. But it wasn't. 

#227
LTD

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Da 2 showed the bar rather deep in arse.

#228
jillabender

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In Exile wrote...

jillabender wrote...

That's not to say that I need the game to directly and unambiguously acknowledge everything that I imagine about a voiced protagonist - it's just that what I imagine about a voiced protagonist needs to stay very close to the details actually presented in the game, or it won't feel organic to me. That's why I personally feel that voiced protagonists work best when the character has a fairly firmly established personality, and the player's role is in shaping the expression and development of that personality.


Okay, I have a question. Why don't you feel this about the silent protagonist? Going back to the point about reactivity, I feel this has to be the case for all PCs.


Oh, I do feel the same way about the silent protagonist to an extent - what I imagine about the character needs to have a connection to details in the game.

What I meant was that I don't feel the need to stick quite as close to what's presented to me with a silent protagonist. With a silent protagonist, I can play a little bit looser with the connection between what I imagine and what's presented in the game without breaking the illusion that my character is part of the game world.

Most significantly, of course, I can imagine the particular shade of "diplomatic," "sarcastic" or "aggressive" with which my character delivers a line, so long as I don't require the NPC reactions to be very specific in order to preserve the illusion that they're reacting to the character as I've imagined him or her. That's why I feel I can portray a broader range of personalities with a silent protagonist, and why I can enjoy playing a silent PC whose personality is largely left up to the player to define.

Maybe on some level, the fact that the PC doesn't speak already breaks the illusion of the character being in the game world a bit, so bending the illusion a bit more doesn't feel out of place? Maybe it really comes down to my being able to accept some cracks in the illusion that my character is part of the game world because those cracks allows me to enter into the game world as a kind of actor playing the role of the character I've created, rather than simply directing the character.

In Exile wrote...

I found the origins brilliant, and it wouldn't have mattered to me anywhere near as much if the PC was silent if that was what all DA:O was like. But it wasn't.


Oh, I completely agree about wishing that the rest of DA:O were more like the origin stories - with situations, choices and dialogue options that are more personal to the character, and with NPCs reacting to the character as a person with a specific history and personal goals (And I say this as a hardcore DA:O addict! :P). In fact, I think it would be awesome to see BioWare do a series of shorter games that are like expanded versions of DA:O's origin stories - shorter, more personal stories with reactivity on a more personal level.

In Exile wrote...

And that's a big problem with Bioware silent PCs - they don't have personality (in part) because the writing is so generic and non-specific that it doesn't express anything.

I imagine that's why a lot of people who RP in your way like it - because it could as easily work for any character. But that's precisely what I hate about it.


Personally, I would actually ideally prefer for the dialogue for a silent PC to be quite a bit more expressive than what we often get in DA:O. Some fans of the silent PC might feel that would go too far in characterizing their PC for them, but given my preferences, I think that putting a bit more suggestion of personality in most silent lines can actually open up more meaningful possibilities for role-playing, rather than being restrictive.

That kind of thing, of course, is a bit hard to pin down, because the effect that a particular approach to dialogue ultimately has on my experience of a protagonist isn't always quite what I would expect. I didn't expect to enjoy playing Shepard as much as I did, for example, so I try to keep an open mind.

In Exile wrote...

This discussion was great!


I agree! It's always great to talk to someone like you who's very articulate and who challenges me to better explain myself. :happy:

Modifié par jillabender, 27 avril 2013 - 02:34 .


#229
ref

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LTD wrote...

Da 2 showed the bar rather deep in arse.


Pretty much this. The bar cannot possibly get any lower now with ME3 as well, lol.

On a side note, Xzar is amazing.

#230
Commander Kurt

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yet developers pump out sequels like it is going out of style and new IPs are becoming rarer and rarer in the AAA video game industry. Go figure.


Yup, and in hollywood they're doing remake upon remake of movies that came out just a few years ago. Or sequels. Will they win the undying love of the fans, raving reviews, and oscar's for all? Hardly.

Sequels, or remakes, are naturally easier to make. The lesser gain (if it is lesser, people actually pay to see Die Hard 5 after all) is offset by the lesser cost. If anything, it makes excellent business sense in the short term to put out lackluster products that are cheap to make and rely on a brand to push numbers.

I don't think that's what bioware is doing, but it is a viable corporate strategy and in no way is it riskier than pouring resources and devotion into a product hoping fans will be appeased and people will love it.

If I was the worrying kind, I would be more worried for Bioware after DA:O. That game took ages to make, probably cost a small fortune, and was following (what I understand to be) at best minor financial successes such as Jade Empire and Mass Effect.

#231
Little Princess Peach

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I think Bioware are slowly taking out even more rpg elements that I liked in DA:O, will DA:I be better than the other two games who knows but it has to be a better improvement to Hawkes sad story.

#232
Sanunes

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Refara wrote...

LTD wrote...

Da 2 showed the bar rather deep in arse.


Pretty much this. The bar cannot possibly get any lower now with ME3 as well, lol.

On a side note, Xzar is amazing.




I have a low opinion of the gaming industry as a whole, not just EA/BioWare for I felt BioShock: Infinite, Assassin's Creed 3, and Skyrim all failed to deliver compared to their predecessors.  Now as I posted before I think the problem is sequelitis and has nothing to do with the publisher or developer.

#233
9TailsFox

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Sanunes wrote...

Refara wrote...

LTD wrote...

Da 2 showed the bar rather deep in arse.


Pretty much this. The bar cannot possibly get any lower now with ME3 as well, lol.

On a side note, Xzar is amazing.




I have a low opinion of the gaming industry as a whole, not just EA/BioWare for I felt BioShock: Infinite, Assassin's Creed 3, and Skyrim all failed to deliver compared to their predecessors.  Now as I posted before I think the problem is sequelitis and has nothing to do with the publisher or developer.


Didn't play BioShock: Infinite. Agree on AC3, Skyrim improved from Oblivion and is much better in eany aspect.I am partly agree what you mean but large folt are we consumers to. 1 we demanding too much this grase don't look realistic sky is to blu, I don't have problem with nice graphics but come on really. And buy everything they throw at as.

#234
Sanunes

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9TailsFox wrote...

-snip-


Didn't play BioShock: Infinite. Agree on AC3, Skyrim improved from Oblivion and is much better in eany aspect.I am partly agree what you mean but large folt are we consumers to. 1 we demanding too much this grase don't look realistic sky is to blu, I don't have problem with nice graphics but come on really. And buy everything they throw at as.


For full disclosure my issues with Skyrim are that I started the game three times and each time every save was corrupted because of patches and each game was at least 20 hours in, so I gave up and vowed to never buy another Bethesda game until they build a completely new engine.

edit: fixed quote

Modifié par Sanunes, 26 avril 2013 - 02:36 .


#235
LPPrince

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Sanunes wrote...

9TailsFox wrote...

-snip-


Didn't play BioShock: Infinite. Agree on AC3, Skyrim improved from Oblivion and is much better in eany aspect.I am partly agree what you mean but large folt are we consumers to. 1 we demanding too much this grase don't look realistic sky is to blu, I don't have problem with nice graphics but come on really. And buy everything they throw at as.


For full disclosure my issues with Skyrim are that I started the game three times and each time every save was corrupted because of patches and each game was at least 20 hours in, so I gave up and vowed to never buy another Bethesda game until they build a completely new engine.

edit: fixed quote


That is unfortunate, but I don't recall hearing about that happening to many people. It certainly never happened to me- by any chance, did you play the game on PC with mods? That might have something to do with it, should that of been the case.

Anyway, as far as DA's bugginess and stuff goes, I'm confident they'll do a good enough job on that front. Though when DA does have bugs, they are annoying as hell.

#236
The Elder King

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LPPrince wrote...


Anyway, as far as DA's bugginess and stuff goes, I'm confident they'll do a good enough job on that front. Though when DA does have bugs, they are annoying as hell.


Yeah. Seeing your PC going on slow motion isn't really fun.

#237
Commander Kurt

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LPPrince wrote...

That is unfortunate, but I don't recall hearing about that happening to many people. It certainly never happened to me- by any chance, did you play the game on PC with mods? That might have something to do with it, should that of been the case.

Anyway, as far as DA's bugginess and stuff goes, I'm confident they'll do a good enough job on that front. Though when DA does have bugs, they are annoying as hell.


Really? I have three mates on ps3 who's given up on the game due to it being insanely broken. 

Yeah, since the first mass effect, I've had very little trouble with bioware games. This is something they do really well.