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#251
Yestare7

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Ecrulis wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

So Lillith is a batarian?

Do you have any idea at all wht you're talking about?


the more he talks the more im convinced of one of two things, he is a masteful troll or the most confusing person on the BSN.


I believe he just enjoys spouting nonsense. So troll.

Wayning_Star wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Wayning_Star, you seem pretty confident that Synthesis is canon. I bet you have a really good source, no?

The Mystery of Edwin Drood.


Modifié par Yestare7, 23 avril 2013 - 04:16 .


#252
Ecrulis

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Fair enough

#253
tracesaint

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Synthesis is my 2nd option for an ending. Control is my first, with Destroy my 3rd. Refusal is not an option. I kind of liked that Shepard and company had the kill Reapers mindset until we meet the Catalyst and we get more of an understanding as to the cycles of life. My Shepards who pick destroy pick it out of distrust of the Catalyst. I assume most people who pick destroy feel the same.
Control and Synthesis are both out there perhaps, but you're basically making a decision that affects how the galaxy will move forward. The Crucible is the technology that can, with synthesis, turn all life into type 3 civilizations.

#254
BrotherArdis

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Yes, freedom of formulating new ideas and capability to share them with others is a great thing, no doubt. It's basically what enables us, as individuals and as a species, to progress and develop. True.

But, once formulated, new ideas are subject to evaluation by the rest of the species. Some are accepted, some not. It's an essential part of the process. That's how we are able to actually progress - by choosing beneficial ideas, and rejecting those we deem harmful.

So in short, OP - why do you assume that people who reject synthesis have not given any thought to it? Why do you assume it has not been considered? I should say it has. I certainly have. That's how I arrived at the conclusion that it is an abomination to me. Because on the surface it's all fine and dandy; everybody gets on great with everybody else, peace and love forever. It's only when you start to actually think about the details that you can see the less appealing consequences. It's up to you to decide, whether the pros outweigh the cons, don't get me wrong - that's the diversity of thoughts and opinions that makes us go forward - but while you make your own judgement, please let me make my own.

#255
Enhanced

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Argolas wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis is canon, sorry..but that's show bidness...lol

(i.e. hand writing on the wall.)


There is no canon, but it's clearly the best of the 3, unless Bioware was trying to trick us.


There is an ending that is even harder to unlock with a little secret cutscene. That may be hint enough to tell that Synthesis was supposed to look like the hardest to achieve and thus the best while it actually is not.


Chaos is inevitable. Synthetic/organics conflicts will always exist, eventually organics will be eliminated by their creations. Both Leviathan dlc and EC dlc include additonal dialogue to support that. Like I said, unless Bioware was intentionally trying to trick us, that is what we are supposed to believe. Synthesis is the option that directly solves that problem.  Also, there really aren't any negatives about synthesis. But, for some reason, people like to think that applying great physical and mental improvements to all organics in the galaxy is a bad thing. Or, maybe it's just that some people can't accept an ending to the ME series without that "little secret cutscene".

Modifié par Enhanced, 23 avril 2013 - 05:19 .


#256
Argolas

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"Technological Singularity" has exactly zero evidence to back it up. Organics won every war against Synthetics before except when reapers interfered. And even the reapers that are way more powerful than a synthetic could ever be according to their own ideology could be defeated.

Organics will always find creative solutions. Remember how EDI could have helmed the Normandy perfectly by herself but it proved to be more effective to let Joker do that? "Human misjudgements defy predictive models". As superior as synthetics may seem, organics will always find a way to conquer them. A way such as the quarian anti-geth virus. A way such as the Crucible, the ultimate synthetic-killer. Or simply a way such as communication, understanding, coexistence because both organics and synthetics realize that they can learn from each other.

#257
dreamgazer

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 Chaos, in one form or another, is inevitable in every ending. Unless, of course, it's forcibly thwarted.

#258
Steelcan

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dreamgazer wrote...

 Chaos, in one form or another, is inevitable in every ending. Unless, of course, it's forcibly thwarted.

. Me, I'm an agent of chaos"

#259
GreyLycanTrope

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spirosz wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Calling pro-Destroyers, luddites, sociopaths, murderers, and barbarians isn't any better.  


Exactly.  Neither side is doing any better though.

I think they're all crazy.
Yay equality! :lol:

#260
Ecrulis

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Enhanced wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis is canon, sorry..but that's show bidness...lol

(i.e. hand writing on the wall.)


There is no canon, but it's clearly the best of the 3, unless Bioware was trying to trick us.


There is an ending that is even harder to unlock with a little secret cutscene. That may be hint enough to tell that Synthesis was supposed to look like the hardest to achieve and thus the best while it actually is not.


Chaos is inevitable. Synthetic/organics conflicts will always exist, eventually organics will be eliminated by their creations. Both Leviathan dlc and EC dlc include additonal dialogue to support that. Like I said, unless Bioware was intentionally trying to trick us, that is what we are supposed to believe. Synthesis is the option that directly solves that problem.  Also, there really aren't any negatives about synthesis. But, for some reason, people like to think that applying great physical and mental improvements to all organics in the galaxy is a bad thing. Or, maybe it's just that some people can't accept an ending to the ME series without that "little secret cutscene".


Sorry but no, that may be your opinion but it is not absolute fact, hell the concept that synthetics will destroy organics is not even hard fact, to believe it you basically need to take Leviathan at it's word and glowboy at his word, neither of which I do, at a meta level the trilogy does more to disprove this assertion that to prove it. 

#261
Enhanced

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Argolas wrote...

"Technological Singularity" has exactly zero evidence to back it up. Organics won every war against Synthetics before except when reapers interfered. And even the reapers that are way more powerful than a synthetic could ever be according to their own ideology could be defeated.

Organics will always find creative solutions. Remember how EDI could have helmed the Normandy perfectly by herself but it proved to be more effective to let Joker do that? "Human misjudgements defy predictive models". As superior as synthetics may seem, organics will always find a way to conquer them. A way such as the quarian anti-geth virus. A way such as the Crucible, the ultimate synthetic-killer. Or simply a way such as communication, understanding, coexistence because both organics and synthetics realize that they can learn from each other.


Organics were eliminated by synthetics countless times before Reapers were even created. But, we're not supposed to believe that, even without any implication of it being false? The Catalyst created the cycles to intervene before synthetics cause multiple races to go extinct, not after it happens. Reapers are completely  controlled by a synthetic, they are an extension of him. And, it's a good thing that he never intended to destroy every organic, because he certainly had the power for a billion+ years. He defeated the Leviathans , so maybe the machines he used were even more powerful.

Modifié par Enhanced, 23 avril 2013 - 06:40 .


#262
Mangalores

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Enhanced wrote...

...
Organics were eliminated by synthetics countless times before Reaper were even created. But, we're not supposed to believe that, even without any implication of it being false? The Catalyst created the cycles to intervene before synthetics cause multiple races to go extinct, not after it happens. Reapers are completely are controlled by a synthetic, they are an extension of him. And, it's a good thing that he never intended to destroy every organic, because he certainly had the power for a billion+ years. He defeated the Leviathans , so maybe the machines he used were even more powerful.


The Catalyst is his own failure, the very instance of the event he was supposed and still believes to prevent. Which is why he is not the solution.

#263
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Argolas wrote...

"Technological Singularity" has exactly zero evidence to back it up. Organics won every war against Synthetics before except when reapers interfered. And even the reapers that are way more powerful than a synthetic could ever be according to their own ideology could be defeated.

Organics will always find creative solutions. Remember how EDI could have helmed the Normandy perfectly by herself but it proved to be more effective to let Joker do that? "Human misjudgements defy predictive models". As superior as synthetics may seem, organics will always find a way to conquer them. A way such as the quarian anti-geth virus. A way such as the Crucible, the ultimate synthetic-killer. Or simply a way such as communication, understanding, coexistence because both organics and synthetics realize that they can learn from each other.


Don't forget the calibrations Image IPB

#264
Ecrulis

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Enhanced wrote...

Argolas wrote...

"Technological Singularity" has exactly zero evidence to back it up. Organics won every war against Synthetics before except when reapers interfered. And even the reapers that are way more powerful than a synthetic could ever be according to their own ideology could be defeated.

Organics will always find creative solutions. Remember how EDI could have helmed the Normandy perfectly by herself but it proved to be more effective to let Joker do that? "Human misjudgements defy predictive models". As superior as synthetics may seem, organics will always find a way to conquer them. A way such as the quarian anti-geth virus. A way such as the Crucible, the ultimate synthetic-killer. Or simply a way such as communication, understanding, coexistence because both organics and synthetics realize that they can learn from each other.


Organics were eliminated by synthetics countless times before Reaper were even created. But, we're not supposed to believe that, even without any implication of it being false? The Catalyst created the cycles to intervene before synthetics cause multiple races to go extinct, not after it happens. Reapers are completely are controlled by a synthetic, they are an extension of him. And, it's a good thing that he never intended to destroy every organic, because he certainly had the power for a billion+ years. He defeated the Leviathans , so maybe the machines he used were even more powerful.


The problem with this is, and I'm not here trying to push you into my way of thinking just pointing out mine and other is just as valid as yours, is while what those characters are saying may be true "trust me it happened" is rarely a very good argument, the trilogy SHOWS us time, and time again that not only is synthetics killing off organics not neccesarily true, synthetic violence against organics isn't even 100% guaranteed. Then we are supposed to suddenly ignore everything we learned about the geth in ME2 and 3, everything Javik said about his cycle merely because some egotistical organic race with a god complex said so?

This all stems from the 11th hour plot change and as I've said before it is truly unfortunate what bad writing has done to this trilogy but the side effect is that the assertions that show up at the end are now open to interpretation because the rest of the story doen't really back up said assertions.

#265
Ticonderoga117

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Auld Wulf wrote...

This is worth a read.

One of the things that always confused me with the Mass Effect fanbase is its fetishism of fact, even in a fictional story, to go so far as to say that canon isn't canon. The hatred for the Lazarus Project and Synthesis, in the face of stupendously smart men like Arthur C. Clarke pointing out the fatal flaw with that kind of thinking. This is why I still think that Synthesis goes over the head of the average fan, and incites pitchforks and torches raised in anger with screams of abomination, embracing hatred and fear over erudite understanding.

See, here's a thing: Science-Fiction is fiction. Fiction deals with dreams, ideals, and symbolism. It would be very, very bad fiction if it didn't, and there's already enough bad fiction out there. It's attractive to think of Today being Forever, it's comforting and familiar. It's like the little cardboard box you'll never creep out of, making the average person intellectually a hermit crab. When I look at fiction, I see tales of what could be, what might be, and what potentialities exist. Synthesis is attractive to me because it is a potentiality.

As a fun what if, a little thought exercise as you know I like those, what if all alien life in the galactic community is already wired into an AI in order to achieve complete understanding of their own race? What if the ultimate test of nature is to achieve that complete understanding? What if this is our test? The test of each sapient race. Every planet is fragile, every planet can only last so long with its inhabitants draining resources and slowly killing it. What if the greatest test for any sapient race is to pull together as a whole, with complete understanding of every other person, sharing themselves in a state of understanding, sans suffering?

Whta if that's what alien races had seen time and again? If you can escape your planet by gaining global understanding, and working towards the mutual goal of being spaceborne, then you pass. If you fail, then you won't be around to care about it. Stephen Hawking warns us of confining ourselves to earth. So what if? What if the galactic community is waiting and watching? That is but one idea, and an idea is a powerful thing. Fiction is about ideas. Romance, potentiality, what could we be, one day?

Fiction is a beautiful thing.

Does it matter if fiction isn't mired too much in modern day fact? I'd say no. Star Trek was a hilarious fabrication of pseudoscience and it was well loved. And at times, Star Trek was art. You see, when you ground fiction in fact too much, you're binding it in chains, tying it down with the weight and burden of expectation to be real, you're limiting it, you're telling it what it can't be, and where it can't go. But for fiction to be art, in any way, it has to be free. I believe that... in its own way? Synthesis was art. It's a powerful idea, as part of fiction.

I feel if you don't get that, then you don't understand why we have fiction in the first place. Why we bother to create, explore, or reach for the stars. And if you don't understand that, then what point is there to getting out of bed each morning? Human imagination is powered by ideals, not facts. When a Scientist works on a theory, they're fashioning various could be's and pontentialities, working imaginary numbers, and sometimes even just throwing things at the wall until something sticks. It's the idea that propels us forward, it's the idea that makes us special.

Synthesis was a culmination of everything that had come before it, of everything we'd seen and done, and in the end it presented us with a new potentiality; A symbolic dream of a far-flung future. What drives us is the want to understand and even realise ideas. The worst thing you could ever do is to want to dismiss or destroy an idea. Ideas are what we are.


Here's your problem, there's also SCIENCE in SciFi. If your universe is not consistent with itself it fails.

When plot events trump the consistency for mere symbolism for symbolisms sake, you are writing **** and need to do it over.

#266
Argolas

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tickle267 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

"Technological Singularity" has exactly zero evidence to back it up. Organics won every war against Synthetics before except when reapers interfered. And even the reapers that are way more powerful than a synthetic could ever be according to their own ideology could be defeated.

Organics will always find creative solutions. Remember how EDI could have helmed the Normandy perfectly by herself but it proved to be more effective to let Joker do that? "Human misjudgements defy predictive models". As superior as synthetics may seem, organics will always find a way to conquer them. A way such as the quarian anti-geth virus. A way such as the Crucible, the ultimate synthetic-killer. Or simply a way such as communication, understanding, coexistence because both organics and synthetics realize that they can learn from each other.


Don't forget the calibrations Image IPB


True, true. :o

#267
Ecrulis

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

This is worth a read.

One of the things that always confused me with the Mass Effect fanbase is its fetishism of fact, even in a fictional story, to go so far as to say that canon isn't canon. The hatred for the Lazarus Project and Synthesis, in the face of stupendously smart men like Arthur C. Clarke pointing out the fatal flaw with that kind of thinking. This is why I still think that Synthesis goes over the head of the average fan, and incites pitchforks and torches raised in anger with screams of abomination, embracing hatred and fear over erudite understanding.

See, here's a thing: Science-Fiction is fiction. Fiction deals with dreams, ideals, and symbolism. It would be very, very bad fiction if it didn't, and there's already enough bad fiction out there. It's attractive to think of Today being Forever, it's comforting and familiar. It's like the little cardboard box you'll never creep out of, making the average person intellectually a hermit crab. When I look at fiction, I see tales of what could be, what might be, and what potentialities exist. Synthesis is attractive to me because it is a potentiality.

As a fun what if, a little thought exercise as you know I like those, what if all alien life in the galactic community is already wired into an AI in order to achieve complete understanding of their own race? What if the ultimate test of nature is to achieve that complete understanding? What if this is our test? The test of each sapient race. Every planet is fragile, every planet can only last so long with its inhabitants draining resources and slowly killing it. What if the greatest test for any sapient race is to pull together as a whole, with complete understanding of every other person, sharing themselves in a state of understanding, sans suffering?

Whta if that's what alien races had seen time and again? If you can escape your planet by gaining global understanding, and working towards the mutual goal of being spaceborne, then you pass. If you fail, then you won't be around to care about it. Stephen Hawking warns us of confining ourselves to earth. So what if? What if the galactic community is waiting and watching? That is but one idea, and an idea is a powerful thing. Fiction is about ideas. Romance, potentiality, what could we be, one day?

Fiction is a beautiful thing.

Does it matter if fiction isn't mired too much in modern day fact? I'd say no. Star Trek was a hilarious fabrication of pseudoscience and it was well loved. And at times, Star Trek was art. You see, when you ground fiction in fact too much, you're binding it in chains, tying it down with the weight and burden of expectation to be real, you're limiting it, you're telling it what it can't be, and where it can't go. But for fiction to be art, in any way, it has to be free. I believe that... in its own way? Synthesis was art. It's a powerful idea, as part of fiction.

I feel if you don't get that, then you don't understand why we have fiction in the first place. Why we bother to create, explore, or reach for the stars. And if you don't understand that, then what point is there to getting out of bed each morning? Human imagination is powered by ideals, not facts. When a Scientist works on a theory, they're fashioning various could be's and pontentialities, working imaginary numbers, and sometimes even just throwing things at the wall until something sticks. It's the idea that propels us forward, it's the idea that makes us special.

Synthesis was a culmination of everything that had come before it, of everything we'd seen and done, and in the end it presented us with a new potentiality; A symbolic dream of a far-flung future. What drives us is the want to understand and even realise ideas. The worst thing you could ever do is to want to dismiss or destroy an idea. Ideas are what we are.


Here's your problem, there's also SCIENCE in SciFi. If your universe is not consistent with itself it fails.

When plot events trump the consistency for mere symbolism for symbolisms sake, you are writing **** and need to do it over.


Yup this

My problem with the endings isn't so much the concepts they bring up but with how badly they crap all over the established rules and lore of the created universe.

#268
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Ecrulis wrote...

My problem with the endings isn't so much the concepts they bring up but with how badly they crap all over the established rules and lore of the created universe.


Image IPB

#269
Ecrulis

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To be fair to BioWare this is the first time I've seen them fail this hard at an ending, even with all the problems with DA2 narrative cohesion was not one of them.

#270
Argolas

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Ecrulis wrote...

To be fair to BioWare this is the first time I've seen them fail this hard at an ending, even with all the problems with DA2 narrative cohesion was not one of them.


Meh... well, at least DA2 didn't fail that bad in that aspect, but I may point out that I didn't know that what Anders did at the end was possible in the Dragon Age universe with a few basic ingredients mixed together into something so small that he could conceal it on his body. They should have used that against the darkspawn perhaps? Well, I don't want to get into that too deeply, I don't want to spoil DA2 and this is the wrong section anyway. :whistle:

#271
Astartes Marine

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Ecrulis wrote...
To be fair to BioWare this is the first time I've seen them fail this hard at an ending, even with all the problems with DA2 narrative cohesion was not one of them.

Seconded for truth.  The ME3 ending was not the norm for BioWare, they're usually much better at this.

I lay the blame at EA's feet, probably pushed BioWare for the speedy release and the game suffered for it.  Either that, or the rumor is true that Casey and Mac did the endings themselves while the rest of the team was in the dark and out of the loop.

#272
Ecrulis

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Argolas wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

To be fair to BioWare this is the first time I've seen them fail this hard at an ending, even with all the problems with DA2 narrative cohesion was not one of them.


Meh... well, at least DA2 didn't fail that bad in that aspect, but I may point out that I didn't know that what Anders did at the end was possible in the Dragon Age universe with a few basic ingredients mixed together into something so small that he could conceal it on his body. They should have used that against the darkspawn perhaps? Well, I don't want to get into that too deeply, I don't want to spoil DA2 and this is the wrong section anyway. :whistle:


I put that little fudge more along the lines of the lazerus project than the ME3 ending, both cases seem to stretch the boundaries of what is possible in their games universes but it didn't make me sit back and think "no, no that's just not how things work".

#273
Ticonderoga117

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Astartes Marine wrote...
Seconded for truth.  The ME3 ending was not the norm for BioWare, they're usually much better at this.

I lay the blame at EA's feet, probably pushed BioWare for the speedy release and the game suffered for it.  Either that, or the rumor is true that Casey and Mac did the endings themselves while the rest of the team was in the dark and out of the loop.


This is what makes it all that much worse. ME1 had a good ending, ME2 had an awesome ending. Citadel was fun and had it's high and low emotional points. What the hell happened? This is what makes me sad, infuriated, and confused.

#274
Argolas

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Ecrulis wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

To be fair to BioWare this is the first time I've seen them fail this hard at an ending, even with all the problems with DA2 narrative cohesion was not one of them.


Meh... well, at least DA2 didn't fail that bad in that aspect, but I may point out that I didn't know that what Anders did at the end was possible in the Dragon Age universe with a few basic ingredients mixed together into something so small that he could conceal it on his body. They should have used that against the darkspawn perhaps? Well, I don't want to get into that too deeply, I don't want to spoil DA2 and this is the wrong section anyway. :whistle:


I put that little fudge more along the lines of the lazerus project than the ME3 ending, both cases seem to stretch the boundaries of what is possible in their games universes but it didn't make me sit back and think "no, no that's just not how things work".


Yeah, as I said it's not a major problem, DA2 had others. But oh well ^_^

#275
Enhanced

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Ecrulis wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Argolas wrote...

"Technological Singularity" has exactly zero evidence to back it up. Organics won every war against Synthetics before except when reapers interfered. And even the reapers that are way more powerful than a synthetic could ever be according to their own ideology could be defeated.

Organics will always find creative solutions. Remember how EDI could have helmed the Normandy perfectly by herself but it proved to be more effective to let Joker do that? "Human misjudgements defy predictive models". As superior as synthetics may seem, organics will always find a way to conquer them. A way such as the quarian anti-geth virus. A way such as the Crucible, the ultimate synthetic-killer. Or simply a way such as communication, understanding, coexistence because both organics and synthetics realize that they can learn from each other.


Organics were eliminated by synthetics countless times before Reaper were even created. But, we're not supposed to believe that, even without any implication of it being false? The Catalyst created the cycles to intervene before synthetics cause multiple races to go extinct, not after it happens. Reapers are completely are controlled by a synthetic, they are an extension of him. And, it's a good thing that he never intended to destroy every organic, because he certainly had the power for a billion+ years. He defeated the Leviathans , so maybe the machines he used were even more powerful.


The problem with this is, and I'm not here trying to push you into my way of thinking just pointing out mine and other is just as valid as yours, is while what those characters are saying may be true "trust me it happened" is rarely a very good argument, the trilogy SHOWS us time, and time again that not only is synthetics killing off organics not neccesarily true, synthetic violence against organics isn't even 100% guaranteed. Then we are supposed to suddenly ignore everything we learned about the geth in ME2 and 3, everything Javik said about his cycle merely because some egotistical organic race with a god complex said so?

This all stems from the 11th hour plot change and as I've said before it is truly unfortunate what bad writing has done to this trilogy but the side effect is that the assertions that show up at the end are now open to interpretation because the rest of the story doen't really back up said assertions.


Yes, basically. Javik really didn't have any extra information about the Reapers' backgorund though. No one did. The Leviathan didn't have a reason to lie.  They didn't even have to let Shepard leave planet.

Modifié par Enhanced, 23 avril 2013 - 07:51 .