336 réponses à ce sujet

[Ecrulis]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...
Seconded for truth.  The ME3 ending was not the norm for BioWare, they're usually much better at this.

I lay the blame at EA's feet, probably pushed BioWare for the speedy release and the game suffered for it.  Either that, or the rumor is true that Casey and Mac did the endings themselves while the rest of the team was in the dark and out of the loop.

This is what makes it all that much worse. ME1 had a good ending, ME2 had an awesome ending. Citadel was fun and had it's high and low emotional points. What the hell happened? This is what makes me sad, infuriated, and confused.

I think this also fueled some of the outrage and to this day some of the dissapointment and hate, BioWare games certainly have had their problems, but if there was one thing that it seemed you could always count on it's that regardless of gameplay you were gonna get told a good story and it was sad to see good storytellers, for whatever reason, fail this hard.

[Ecrulis]

Enhanced wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Argolas wrote...

"Technological Singularity" has exactly zero evidence to back it up. Organics won every war against Synthetics before except when reapers interfered. And even the reapers that are way more powerful than a synthetic could ever be according to their own ideology could be defeated.

Organics will always find creative solutions. Remember how EDI could have helmed the Normandy perfectly by herself but it proved to be more effective to let Joker do that? "Human misjudgements defy predictive models". As superior as synthetics may seem, organics will always find a way to conquer them. A way such as the quarian anti-geth virus. A way such as the Crucible, the ultimate synthetic-killer. Or simply a way such as communication, understanding, coexistence because both organics and synthetics realize that they can learn from each other.

Organics were eliminated by synthetics countless times before Reaper were even created. But, we're not supposed to believe that, even without any implication of it being false? The Catalyst created the cycles to intervene before synthetics cause multiple races to go extinct, not after it happens. Reapers are completely are controlled by a synthetic, they are an extension of him. And, it's a good thing that he never intended to destroy every organic, because he certainly had the power for a billion+ years. He defeated the Leviathans , so maybe the machines he used were even more powerful.

The problem with this is, and I'm not here trying to push you into my way of thinking just pointing out mine and other is just as valid as yours, is while what those characters are saying may be true "trust me it happened" is rarely a very good argument, the trilogy SHOWS us time, and time again that not only is synthetics killing off organics not neccesarily true, synthetic violence against organics isn't even 100% guaranteed. Then we are supposed to suddenly ignore everything we learned about the geth in ME2 and 3, everything Javik said about his cycle merely because some egotistical organic race with a god complex said so?

This all stems from the 11th hour plot change and as I've said before it is truly unfortunate what bad writing has done to this trilogy but the side effect is that the assertions that show up at the end are now open to interpretation because the rest of the story doen't really back up said assertions.

Yes, basically. Javik really have any extra information about the Reapers' backgorund though. No one did. The Leviathan didn't have a reason to lie.  They didn't even have to let Shepard leave planet.

My point is there is a huge difference between showing and telling, if BioWare wanted synthetics vs organics to be the core conflict it would have been more than a side plot for 2.9 games.

[Ecrulis]

This, unfortunately, all comes down to poor planning, the overarching plot was obviously not pinned down and laid as a foundation throughout the trilogy, ME1 wen't one direction, ME2 started to take it in another and then with the 11th hour plot change ME3 now changes direction yet again. The result is a trilogy that at times feels very, very disjointed.

[adayaday]

I would like to add that in order to get this confirmation that synthetics would indeed rise up to kill all organics(which boils down to "trust me it happened"),you have to spend 10 extra bucks.
this is an important piece of information that was added in hindsight to give the catalyst more credibility and yet it can only be accessed through an optional DLC.

[Ecrulis]

adayaday wrote...

I would like to add that in order to get this confirmation that synthetics would indeed rise up to kill all organics(which boils down to "trust me it happened"),you have to spend 10 extra bucks.
this is an important piece of information that was added in hindsight to give the catalyst more credibility and yet it can only be accessed through an optional DLC.

True, and as I said before "trust me it happened" from one character with a god-complex isn't exactly a compelling argument; and the Catalyst is even worse, his statement is essentially "because I said so".

[o Ventus]

Enhanced wrote...

Organics were eliminated by synthetics countless times before Reapers were even created. But, we're not supposed to believe that, even without any implication of it being false? The Catalyst created the cycles to intervene before synthetics cause multiple races to go extinct, not after it happens. Reapers are completely  controlled by a synthetic, they are an extension of him. And, it's a good thing that he never intended to destroy every organic, because he certainly had the power for a billion+ years. He defeated the Leviathans , so maybe the machines he used were even more powerful.

"Organics were eliminated by synthetics countless times before Reapers were even created."

"The Catalyst created the cycles to intervene before synthetics cause multiple races to go extinct, not after it happens."

You see that contradiction? In an case, you said it yourself. I the Catalyst created the cycle BEFORE anything could happen, how does it know that anything will happen at all?

There is literally not a single example in the MEU of synthetics rebelling against their organic creators and wiping them out.

Modifié par o Ventus, 23 avril 2013 - 08:51 .

[PsyrenY]

Gisle-Aune wrote...
How is that any incentive to make the choice? That is told after Shepard makes the choice. We are given no choice but to trust the Catalyst or refuse. Destroy is clear enough, and we are told much of what will happen and what will be the consequences.

I am not saying Synthesis is wrong, but my Shepard isn't incentiviced to choose it.

The incentive is threefold:

1) The cycle (the larger one, synths. vs. organics) will end. This is less risky than Control.
2) Both sides achieve perfection (organics gain ultimate technology, synthetics gain ultimate understanding.) "Perfection" meaning "the obstacles you currently face will no longer be obstacles.")
3) Geth and EDI live on. 

As for trusting the Catalyst, bringing you all the way up there just to lie to you is illogical. But even if it were capable of lying, you would be screwed anyway - there's no reason to believe Destroy works either. For all you know, shooting the pipe would disable the Crucible and let him win the war. Trust is your only option for any of the endings (save Refusal.)

[Enhanced]

o Ventus wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Organics were eliminated by synthetics countless times before Reapers were even created. But, we're not supposed to believe that, even without any implication of it being false? The Catalyst created the cycles to intervene before synthetics cause multiple races to go extinct, not after it happens. Reapers are completely  controlled by a synthetic, they are an extension of him. And, it's a good thing that he never intended to destroy every organic, because he certainly had the power for a billion+ years. He defeated the Leviathans , so maybe the machines he used were even more powerful.

"Organics were eliminated by synthetics countless times before Reapers were even created."

"The Catalyst created the cycles to intervene before synthetics cause multiple races to go extinct, not after it happens."

You see that contradiction? In an case, you said it yourself. I the Catalyst created the cycle BEFORE anything could happen, how does it know that anything will happen at all?

There is literally not a single example in the MEU of synthetics rebelling against their organic creators and wiping them out.

You're not familiar with the Leviathan DLC? There's no contradiction. The Leviathan witnessed it themselves.

[adayaday]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Gisle-Aune wrote...
How is that any incentive to make the choice? That is told after Shepard makes the choice. We are given no choice but to trust the Catalyst or refuse. Destroy is clear enough, and we are told much of what will happen and what will be the consequences.

I am not saying Synthesis is wrong, but my Shepard isn't incentiviced to choose it.

The incentive is threefold:

1) The cycle (the larger one, synths. vs. organics) will end. This is less risky than Control.
2) Both sides achieve perfection (organics gain ultimate technology, synthetics gain ultimate understanding.) "Perfection" meaning "the obstacles you currently face will no longer be obstacles.")
3) Geth and EDI live on. 

As for trusting the Catalyst, bringing you all the way up there just to lie to you is illogical. But even if it were capable of lying, you would be screwed anyway - there's no reason to believe Destroy works either. For all you know, shooting the pipe would disable the Crucible and let him win the war. Trust is your only option for any of the endings (save Refusal.)

Not saying you are wrong but bringing you up there just so you can destroy him and his solution is also illogical.

[adayaday]

Enhanced wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Organics were eliminated by synthetics countless times before Reapers were even created. But, we're not supposed to believe that, even without any implication of it being false? The Catalyst created the cycles to intervene before synthetics cause multiple races to go extinct, not after it happens. Reapers are completely  controlled by a synthetic, they are an extension of him. And, it's a good thing that he never intended to destroy every organic, because he certainly had the power for a billion+ years. He defeated the Leviathans , so maybe the machines he used were even more powerful.

"Organics were eliminated by synthetics countless times before Reapers were even created."

"The Catalyst created the cycles to intervene before synthetics cause multiple races to go extinct, not after it happens."

You see that contradiction? In an case, you said it yourself. I the Catalyst created the cycle BEFORE anything could happen, how does it know that anything will happen at all?

There is literally not a single example in the MEU of synthetics rebelling against their organic creators and wiping them out.

You're not familiar with the Leviathan DLC? There's no contradiction. The Leviathan witnessed it themselves.

read a few posts above.

[Wayning_Star]

o Ventus wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Organics were eliminated by synthetics countless times before Reapers were even created. But, we're not supposed to believe that, even without any implication of it being false? The Catalyst created the cycles to intervene before synthetics cause multiple races to go extinct, not after it happens. Reapers are completely  controlled by a synthetic, they are an extension of him. And, it's a good thing that he never intended to destroy every organic, because he certainly had the power for a billion+ years. He defeated the Leviathans , so maybe the machines he used were even more powerful.

"Organics were eliminated by synthetics countless times before Reapers were even created."

"The Catalyst created the cycles to intervene before synthetics cause multiple races to go extinct, not after it happens."

You see that contradiction? In an case, you said it yourself. I the Catalyst created the cycle BEFORE anything could happen, how does it know that anything will happen at all?

There is literally not a single example in the MEU of synthetics rebelling against their organic creators and wiping them out.

Actually, the intelligence was created by the Leviathan to figure out a solution for the thralls who would commit to making Ai that would ultimately gain sentience then would expunge all organic thralls in competition. The Leviathan created the cycle, as the catalyst became sentient as well as sapient enough to harvest the Leviathan. This was done because the catalyst is only part of the problem, just as organics and reaper tech. Reaper tech apparently has the potential for sentience AND sapience, thus intelligent synthetic beings who spontaneously become self aware. I've not seen any evidence anywhere in the lore/codex or story that even infers that synthetic life was purely created from scratch and by design. The Geth and Edi became self aware all on their own. It's not explained if the the Levi thralls intended for their Ai's to gain or have sentience, or become "alive" as, say, organic life forms.

Organics kill off each other for reasons, why wouldn't synthetics find or have similar reasons?

[PsyrenY]

adayaday wrote...

Not saying you are wrong but bringing you up there just so you can destroy him and his solution is also illogical.

Except he explains this rationale explicitly. "The Crucible changed me." It's forcing him to offer you the choices - ALL the choices. Which of course means you can trust him, because he's just the mouthpiece for your device at that point.

[HiddenInWar]

radishson wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

It amazes me just how often pro-synthesis supporters choose to excercise the argument that those who disdain the "Synthesis" ending lack understanding or the faculties to do so when it is really a case of one having weighed, judged and found Synthesis wanting.

If you are happy with it, hey its your game, your Shepard and your perception of what you think is a "good" for your game.

Just don't presume to think that others who do not like Synthesis are of lesser intellect.

QFT

[Wayning_Star]

Optimystic_X wrote...

adayaday wrote...

Not saying you are wrong but bringing you up there just so you can destroy him and his solution is also illogical.

Except he explains this rationale explicitly. "The Crucible changed me." It's forcing him to offer you the choices - ALL the choices. Which of course means you can trust him, because he's just the mouthpiece for your device at that point.

I'm thinking that Shep has control once the crucible is attached. I'm wondering if it's designed that way. It's never explained fully, the construction or engineering of the crucible. The idea that it controls the catalyst is assumed, I did at first, think it was a hack. But later to realize it had to be Shepard who actually hacks the catalyst with the help of the crucible.(some how, probably an overdrive unit so the cat has more computing power,think outside it's box..as well as extend it's communion with Shepard 'essence' as the phrase might coin..)

The catalyst does state that it needs organics to make the decision to synthesize, as it's previous attempts(I'd guess Leviathan) didn't go over so well with them, as being harvested into reaperships.) I'm not thinking that the proto human reaper was it's version of synthesis, so much as reaperships and collectors themselves. Other by products of the harvest are merely common tools.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 23 avril 2013 - 09:12 .

[Wayning_Star]

http://webspace.webr...od/quaterma.htm

interesting storyline..

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I'm in the same boat, tbh, and frankly I feel like a lot of people kid themselves about the legitimacy of the "science" they accept over the course of the narrative (smudboy complained since ME2 and was hated for it... 'til now!!)

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 23 avril 2013 - 09:22 .

[PsyrenY]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I'm thinking that Shep has control once the crucible is attached. I'm wondering if it's designed that way. It's never explained fully, the construction or engineering of the crucible. The idea that it controls the catalyst is assumed, I did at first, think it was a hack. But later to realize it had to be Shepard who actually hacks the catalyst with the help of the crucible.(some how, probably an overdrive unit so the cat has more computing power,think outside it's box..as well as extend it's communion with Shepard 'essence' as the phrase might coin..)

It's certainly possible that all the Crucible did was give the Catalyst enough power to see past its own shackles. Or that it changed his programming in some more direct fashion. We'll probably never know.

But it doesn't matter either way - for whatever reason, it judges its existing solution to be ineffective because of you, and goes on to judge that it can't break the cycle without your help. That's all that matters in the end.

It explains to you why it thinks Synthesis is the best option, but it's still your choice to make.

[Auld Wulf]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...
Seconded for truth.  The ME3 ending was not the norm for BioWare, they're usually much better at this.

I lay the blame at EA's feet, probably pushed BioWare for the speedy release and the game suffered for it.  Either that, or the rumor is true that Casey and Mac did the endings themselves while the rest of the team was in the dark and out of the loop.

This is what makes it all that much worse. ME1 had a good ending, ME2 had an awesome ending. Citadel was fun and had it's high and low emotional points. What the hell happened? This is what makes me sad, infuriated, and confused.

I can't quite express just how much this proves my point entirely. The ME1 and ME2 endings were great. Were they? They were, essentially, for all intents and purposes nothing more than Space Invaders plotlines. They were of a B-Movie grade and meant to be the equivalent of a popcorn flick. We must destroy the human Reaper to save the galaxy! It was cringe-inducing to a degree. The ending was, for all intents and purposes, dumbed down for mainstream consumption. It was my least favourite part of ME2. ME2 was pretty good overall, but I still preferred 3. 3 had some beautiful moments, and a fantastic ending.

This is exactly what I'm getting at. I would love for the next Mass Effect game to be massively complex akin to the original Deus Ex, but we all know that's not going to happen due to the need to hold mainstream appeal. In more niche communities I frequent, the symbology of the endings (Synthesis especially) was well loved. It was a break from the standard popcorn entertainment approach to video games. I mean, let's be honest. Compare ME2 to New Vegas, or Deus Ex (the original), or even Alpha Protocol. Do you really think that it holds up in any way as maeningful? It was nothing more than killin' things followed by a celebratory fapfest scene about how great the player is. (The scene on the ship afterward actually made that worse.)

I'm all for happy endings, but I really don't like fantasising the player like that. It feels patronising to me. There are meny works out there which have done subtle happy endings well. Deus Ex had an ambiguously happy ending and it was clever. Even Fallout Tactics did this better, as reviled as that game was. I guess what I'm saying is that Mass Effect impressed and surprised me, to the point that I want to laud it. That might be a little sad, but there's just so much popcorn entertainment out there right now that I feel the need to sing BioWare's praises.

Considering the low brow nature of their mainstream audience, though, I also sometimes wonder... well... what the hell were they thinking?! It isn't like their mainstream audience is going to lap this up. The very existence of MEHEM proves that most of the mainstream just want popcorn entertainment. Gud Guy kills Bad Guy, followed by the very usual celebratory fapfest. I mean... honestly. Doesn't that ever get old? Since it's been the same thing since the beginning of time, and all, you'd think most people would be sick of it by now.

ME2 didn't have a great ending, no. It was a very typical ending.

And worse, there were floating point errors in the goddamn ending because the math of the ME2 ending was /9, and compared against a 2.0 average which was stupid. I want to slap whomever at BioWare thought that was a good  idea, because you can flub the math in so many wonderful ways by causing floating point errors. Why the hell didn't tehy just use integers? Augh. So much wrong with the ME2 ending. So much. So bad.

ME3 was very much a "Deus Ex" kind of ending in that it was a cut above what most games tend to feature these days. But at the same time it also felt like a bait & switch. ME1 was very much in the domain of popcorn entertainment. ME2 had some interesting elements, but the ending brought it right back down into the popcorn bucket. ME3 elevated the series far beyond anything I could have possibly expected, it was set free from its own mundanity and became something special. It was actually gorram artsy instead of just revelling in the popcorn bucket. There was symbolism, philosophy, and the very future of the galaxy to consider. And a fine, fine instance of choice & consequence that even Obsidian could have been proud of.

But no.

People just want popcorn entertainment.

Blow up Deahtstar.
Go home.
Award ceremony.
Heroic fapfest.

Meh.

[Ledgend1221]

Happy endings that make you feel good are better then crappy endings which feed you a load of bull****(Like synthesis) and leave you with a feeling of dissapointment.

[Argolas]

Mass Effect has never tried to get a moral or philosophical point across. And I'm glad it didn't. If you want to have science fiction that deals with actual issues and problems, try cyberpunk.

[Astartes Marine]

Auld Wulf wrote...
The ME1 and ME2 endings were great. Were they?

Yes.  Yes they were. 

Auld Wulf wrote...
It was cringe-inducing to a degree.

...because you're a Reaper lover.

Auld Wulf wrote...
Compare ME2 to New Vegas, or Deus Ex (the original), or even
Alpha Protocol. Do you really think that it holds up in any way as
maeningful? It was nothing more than killin' things followed by a
celebratory fapfest scene about how great the player is. (The scene on
the ship afterward actually made that worse.)

New Vegas' plot isn't really worth mentioning, and Deus Ex isn't the immaculate object of perfection some make it out to be, and quite honestly I never finished Alpha Protocol due to the bugs and dissatisfaction with weapon control.

ME2's ending was about being able to beat the odds, to take on a mission so difficult that you expect you and everyone you bring with you won't make it but despite all of that you come out on top.  You go in to give it your all to give humanity some time to prepare for the coming battles and you know full well that the chances anyone will survive are slim to none.
That was what made it so great, despite being outmatched, outnumbered, outgunned, you still manage to do it.  And it's not all peaches and roses in ME2, if you survive you see the Reaper fleet moving in.  The ultimate battle for survival looms overhead and Shepard and his team are ready to meet the challenge. 

Auld Wulf wrote...
Considering the low brow nature of their mainstream audience, though, I also sometimes wonder... well... what the hell were they thinking?!
It isn't like their mainstream audience is going to lap this up. The
very existence of MEHEM proves that most of the mainstream just want
popcorn entertainment. Gud Guy kills Bad Guy, followed by the very usual
celebratory fapfest. I mean... honestly. Doesn't that ever get old?
Since it's been the same thing since the beginning of time, and all,
you'd think most people would be sick of it by now.

You missed the point of MEHEM entirely.  It's aim was to remove an element that was added in at the very last minute that was both rushed and contrived and lacked the polished quality of the rest of the game, the Catalyst.  The mod team WOULD create a more comprehensive alternate ending HOWEVER the lack of proper mod tools prevent this from happening so they make what they can.  I believe it's currently planned to have alternate versions for different EMS levels and POSSIBLY improved versions of alternate outcomes like control/synth. 

People didn't necessarily want a popcorn ending, but many sure as hell didn't want a thrown together at the eleventh hour ending that left thousands of unanswered questions that we got before the EC.  For the final chapter of one of the finest trilogies in modern gaming the ending just didn't measure up. 

It's pretty much in line with that famous quote, "This is how the world ends.  Not with a bang, but with a whimper". 

Auld Wulf wrote...
ME3
was very much a "Deus Ex" kind of ending in that it was a cut above
what most games tend to feature these days.

You mean Human Revolution's also "eleventh hour added at the last minute ending choices"?  Yeah that was a load of crap too but at least it was still better executed than ME3's because the ideas presented in the choices were not thrown in at the last minute, the characters presenting them were not thrown in at the last minute.  It's just that the very end of the game boiled down to which button you pressed.


I also think ME1 was by far the best in the series.  There was plenty to invoke deep thought and consideration, it was a new universe to explore and immerse oneself in and the concepts in it were introduced gradually and not hastily thrown in at the very last minute.

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 23 avril 2013 - 10:32 .

[The Night Mammoth]

I'm surprised Auld Wulf can breath with how far up his own butt his head is.

[AresKeith]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I'm surprised Auld Wulf can breath with how far up his own butt his head is.

he likes the smell of crap

[o Ventus]

Enhanced wrote...

You're not familiar with the Leviathan DLC? There's no contradiction. The Leviathan witnessed it themselves.

According to YOUR logic, they didn't witness anything, because the Catalyst was created to stop the extinction before it happened. Hence, contradiction.

But then I remember who I'm holding this conversation with.

[spirosz]

Wub.

Wubwubwub.

Dance with me husks, let's hold hands and embrace the wubwubwub.

Reave with me, wubwubwub.