54 réponses à ce sujet

[radishson]

I have my own theories as to the specifics of the Indoctrination process, but I suppose we can figure TIM's close proximity to the human reaper husk throughout ME3 is what really jump-started the process.  But WHY did the devs choose to do this in the first place?

Everything TIM says up until the final confrontation post-Crucible beam is pretty in-character for him.  There were definitely holes in his arguments that can be blamed on indoctrination, but why was that necessary?  They made him sound less competent on PURPOSE, to fit the indoctrination idea.  And TIM was completely right about controlling the reapers, anyways! Why indoctrinate him with a completely valid idea?

The only part in the entire plot that required TIM to be indoctrinated is when he alerted the reapers to the Citadel plot.  And even that was handled very poorly - right after you finish a relatively sensical argument with him, he's suddenly run off and given the reapers valuable intel?  And again, I would not call TIM's arguments sensical if the crucible didn't end up 100% confirming everything he had been saying all along.  Surely there was a better way for the devs to handle that plot progression.

I really don't understand any of it, not from a developmental perspective or even a thematic one.  It essentially erodes a dynamic character with compex motives and morals down into a Reaper plaything, as if every single enemy Shepard faces is always inevitably revealed to be under reaper control.  The devs could've easily shown TIM to be one of the few characters mentally stable enough to resist reaper temptation, and almost nothing would even have to be changed - except for the post-beam stuff, which everyone hates anyways.

Think about it:  TIM goes "mad with power", not because of some indoctrination cop-out but because of a genuine character flaw.  You kill him thinking destroy is the only option, only to reach the crucible and realise he was right all along.  This leaves the player to wonder how things might've ended differently if only TIM hadn't been so obsessed with his own control and dominance.  That conclusion seems much more fulfilling to me.

Modifié par radishson, 23 avril 2013 - 12:07 .

[Taboo]

Because Authoritarian figures who abuse power in Bioware games have a tendency to diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiie.

[Xilizhra]

The Reapers didn't give TIM the idea, he always wanted to do that. He just slipped into steadily less helpful means of going about it, up until the Citadel thing, where he was basically completely on their side and just in denial about it. But I agree... while I hate human supremacism, Cerberus dropped that in ME3 to focus on Reaper control, and I don't think it was a good idea to vilify them for that at all.

[conjmk]

I really wish he wasn't indoctrinated. It kinda ruined him for me.

[Bill Casey]

The Prothean separatists who wanted to control the reapers were also indoctrinated...
Outside of the indoctrination theory, it makes absolutely no narrative sense whatsoever to have them be indoctrinated...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 23 avril 2013 - 12:09 .

[Ravensword]

Insta-villain.

[KiwiQuiche]

For teh dramaz.
.
I just found it was lame way out that Bioware took and they didn't even do it properly

[Taboo]

I'd always known he'd be an adversary due to his words at the end of ME2. That happens regardless of what you do with the Collector Base.

He's a victim of the Reapers. They always indoctrinate a splinter cell group each cycle, Javik states this. The Puppetmaster was a Puppet the entire time.

https://encrypted-tb...P7rTT539i55rjNO

[radishson]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Reapers didn't give TIM the idea, he always wanted to do that. He just slipped into steadily less helpful means of going about it, up until the Citadel thing, where he was basically completely on their side and just in denial about it. But I agree... while I hate human supremacism, Cerberus dropped that in ME3 to focus on Reaper control, and I don't think it was a good idea to vilify them for that at all.

He was still performing effective tech experiments at Sanctuary very late into the plot, and the reapers were forced to send in troops to get it stopped.  Doesn't seem like something they should have to do to an indoctrinated subject.  And even on the Citadel his claims end up being totally right.  I just don't get it.

[Taboo]

radishson wrote...
He was still performing effective tech experiments at Sanctuary very late into the plot, and the reapers were forced to send in troops to get it stopped.  Doesn't seem like something they should have to do to an indoctrinated subject.  And even on the Citadel his claims end up being totally right.  I just don't get it.

The man literally spent the war trying to use the Reapers for his own ends. Shepard can call him out on this in the dialouge. He literally calls out his "Bull****".

TIM is a fascnicating character but at the end of the day he's a selfish sack of crap just like the rest of the people in authority positions in Mass Effect.

This isn't a new concept in Bioware games and it certainly won't be the last character this happens to.

[Kataphrut94]

Mainly so we didn't have to work with him again - he works better as a villain anyway.

[Taboo]

 Martin Sheen, the man who voices him says he isn't trust worthy and that he's a horrible person.

And look, Taboo even has a link.

When the reality of the situation sinks in, people will finally understand that he's always been characterized as a villain. Making his character to be more intelligently written than he really is a serious issue on the BSN.

These games are stupidly simple.

[radishson]

Taboo-XX wrote...

radishson wrote...
He was still performing effective tech experiments at Sanctuary very late into the plot, and the reapers were forced to send in troops to get it stopped.  Doesn't seem like something they should have to do to an indoctrinated subject.  And even on the Citadel his claims end up being totally right.  I just don't get it.

The man literally spent the war trying to use the Reapers for his own ends. Shepard can call him out on this in the dialouge. He literally calls out his "Bull****".

TIM is a fascnicating character but at the end of the day he's a selfish sack of crap just like the rest of the people in authority positions in Mass Effect.

This isn't a new concept in Bioware games and it certainly won't be the last character this happens to.

I'm not arguing against any of that, I'm arguing why indoctrination was necessary for any of it to happen.  "The man literally spent the war trying to use the Reapers for his own ends" - yes, and he was SUCCESSFUL.  All of the sanctuary experiments were effective.  He was right about controlling the reapers.  Contrast that with Saren, who was indoctrinated to become subservient to Sovereign.  If the reapers wanted to make TIM less of a threat they did a ****ty job of it considering he was getting very formidable progress with reaper tech up until the very end.

I have no problem with TIM being an awful, terrible man who deserved to die.  I am by no means pro-Cerberus, and I do not approve of TIM's philosophy.  That does not stop me from liking him as a character.  I hate the indoctrination stuff because it invalidates all of his dynamic features down to "lol nope just another reaper pawn"

Modifié par radishson, 23 avril 2013 - 12:31 .

[Han Shot First]

I thought TIM being indoctrinated could have been an interesting turn.

Where I think Bioware dropped the ball a bit is in basically having it be revealed on Mars. Lets be honest: Who didn't immediately suspect indoctrination when Cerberus shows up at Mars, trying to sabotage the war effort? I can't imagine that anyone was surprised when the game officially revealed it.

Cerberus being indoctrinated would have worked much better if TIM started off in an uneasy partnership with Shepard and the Alliance against what seemed a common enemy. Later when it is least expected, the hammer falls, TIM's indoctrination is revealed, and Shepard is betrayed on Thessia.

[Taboo]

radishson wrote...

I'm not arguing against any of that, I'm arguing why indoctrination was necessary for any of it to happen.  "The man literally spent the war trying to use the Reapers for his own ends" - yes, and he was SUCCESSFUL.  All of the sanctuary experiments were effective.  He was right about controlling the reapers.  Contrast that with Saren, who was indoctrinated to become subservient to Sovereign.  If the reapers wanted to make TIM less of a threat they did a ****ty job of it considering he was getting very formidable progress with reaper tech up until the evry end.

I have no problem with TIM being an awful, terrible man who deserved to die.  I hate the indoctrination stuff because it invalidates all of his dynamic features down to "lol nope just another reaper pawn"

He was right about Controlling them yes but they weren't quite the same. His method doesn't involve ascending to a God-like status as an AI, although I can see that option being incredibly tantalizing to his character.

In Javik's cycle there were two factions, one that wanted to Destroy and the other to Control. The Control group was Indoctrinated, a splinter group. They too worked on the Crucible for a time before 

The Reapers want infighting amonsgt the groups to deter collaboration. They simply didn't account for TIM being TIM.

TIM is one of my favorites characters, but at the end of the day he's just Bioware Authoritarian example A.

[Mcfly616]

The guy has been indoctrinated for awhile now....

[Big Bad]

I think the writers decided to make him indoctrinated so that they could use Cerberus as a type of secondary "Big Bad" that opposed Shepard's efforts at every step of the way, regardless of whether or not their specific actions contributed in any real way toward TIM's goal of controlling the reapers.

Frankly, I found it to be an unfortunate and less-than-satisfying way to end the TIM/Cerberus story arc.

Modifié par Big Bad, 23 avril 2013 - 12:47 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Because you have to make it impossible for the more extreme renegades to want to side with TIM.

[radishson]

Han Shot First: I like your idea because it at least uses indoctrination as a valid plot point. That would've been very interesting to play through.

Taboo-XX: But he was still right, and given enough time the sanctuary research might've led to something big. We can't know for sure. Either way it makes no sense for the reapers to allow him to do it. And you still haven't told me why indoctrination was necessary in the first place. What about TIM would have to change presuming he was 100% free of mind in ME3? nothing.

Big Bad:  Your last sentence is pretty much the reason I'm upset here.

Modifié par radishson, 23 avril 2013 - 12:51 .

[AresKeith]

So we can have goons to shoot at

[grey_wind]

Oh, this is easy. In the Final Hours App, MacHudson outright admit that they didn't even have a script for Martin Sheen until October-November 2011. Making Timmy indoctrinated was the path of least resistance.

[DWH1982]

I think the Reapers figure that someone is going to figure out that control is a viable option anyway. So, why not indoctrinate the leadership of the control faction and pit them against the destroy faction? That way, you keep your enemy divided instead of working together.

They have to allow the control faction to do legitimate research, otherwise people would start to catch on that it's all a sham (not all control followers are indoctrinated, after all). If the research starts to become too dangerous, the Reapers can always attack - which only makes the indoctrinated leadership of the control faction seem all the more legitimate, since now they were "attacked" by the Reapers.

Also, honestly, to a certain extent, I think we have to look at TIM as someone who's not fully indoctrinated, but rather fighting it off for all of ME2 and most of ME3. He's in control of some of his decisions, but other decisions the Reapers manage to subtly influence. A lot of the progress of the control faction in ME3 may very well be due to the Reapers not having full control over him until towards the end of the game.

[thehomeworld]

It was a way to get rid of him. I don't like TIM at all but the way the railroaded him ruined his potential to be a jerk actually evil block for shep. I wouldn't have wanted TIM to be shep's nemisis for ME3 it just seemed like he had a plan that would be twisted to use shep even if he wasn't with his team anymore to takeover and kill the reapers from the inside out.

The chip would've allowed TIM to reseize control of shep after the reapers hack him because shep was hackable for a reason, he was weak to emp for a reason, he also was allow to sport reaper code for a reason. That reason was to make it easy for Harbi to hack shep and make him a sudo-Saren not exactly Saren but the next best thing he would be under his control like Shep had been under David's or Lev's control. The chip would allow for TIM to hack shep back and sabotage the reapers and once that was done shep was expendable because TIMs forces he breed or created in Sanctuary would be used along with the Alliance to take out the reapers conventionally if shep perished oh well Tim obviously could care less about him. All this is goes along with TIM's persona well an evil genius douche bag.

Modifié par thehomeworld, 23 avril 2013 - 02:04 .

[ThinkSharp]

Maybe I misunderstood something, but I was under the impression that being mad with power is what got TIM indoctrinated. He put Reaper tech in his brain. The indoctrination further twisted him, perhaps faster than would have otherwise occurred, but he was already cracking to begin with. I agree that you're right in that he didn't have to be indoctrinated, but I don't see the indoctrination as useless icing either. It seems to be a fairly believable progression.

[Megaton_Hope]

I don't really like indoctrinated Illusive Man as a plot device, myself. Not that Cerberus can't turn bad - actually, their heel-face turn in ME2 ticked me off, given what Shepard KNOWS about Cerberus before that time. (Having witnessed their unethical medical experiments, cold-blooded murder of high-ranking Alliance personnel, attempts to enslave Rachni as shock troops, et cetera. It's Shepard ever trusting any member of that organization that I find hard to believe.)

But as Illusive Man is introduced, he could be seen as an extreme but potentially justifiable extension of Shepard's own goals and methods. Taking the Collector Base for study, for example, makes all sorts of sense - not so that humanity can build its own Reaper, but because THAT BASE IS SUSPENDED IN A NETWORK OF BLACK HOLES, and the technology used to create that effect must be amazing. It would, in my opinion, be foolish to discard that kind of discovery out of hand if it could be secured and reverse-engineered. Similarly, his interest in studying Grunt and Legion is understandable, as both are essentially unique creations which could potentially be duplicated with sufficient study, providing untold benefits to the Krogans and to human technology, respectively.

There's no need to take that guy and throw him down the moral event horizon just to make him a bad guy. There are no end of bad guys who have the right goals in mind. Protect humanity, defend the fatherland, advance the frontiers of science. Whatever. Look at our space program. Full of freakin' **** rocket scientists. Those guys were chucking slave labor at all their problems one day and getting medals the next. It's not hard to imagine a game where the Illusive Man is just a high-ranking officer with a private agenda rather than the unaccountable head of a shadowy organization with seemingly unlimited resources.

If I was gonna have anybody indoctrinated? Shoot, man, that Turian Councilor who was all up in Shepard's grill in the first game. He could mysteriously survive in a game where Shepard sacrifices the Council. (Late being evacuated, you know how it is, guys.) His beef with Shepard isn't simple racism, he actually wants Saren to win. Imagine it.

Okay, now look back at Illusive Man. Indoctrination actually weakens the appeal of his character, because everything twisted and wrong in his character can now be attributed to a voice the color of oily shadows from the dark corner of space. Where's the fun in that? Aren't there any real villains out there anymore? Who choose vile criminality for their own reasons, and not because it was forced on them?