218 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

@Hezulkai

Sten feels ending the blight is the most important thing -- as shown by him staying with you after you get him his sword. And take him to the gauntlet -- he knows he failed because of what he did to the family.

Oghren will kill his wife for you. Nuff said.

Zevran, if you earn his loyalty, will stick with you no matter what. But you really can't expect someone with absolutely no ties to you who you don't treat well and who has no interest in the blight to stick with you, can you? He's there because he has to be at first, whether he stays with the group afterwards, once given a chance to escape, depends entirely on where he loyalties lie.  The fact that he doesn't try to kill you again, when he would have plenty of chances to, in the time between you taking him in and the time you encounter his past does show that he at least is willing to give the PC a chance.

Wynne and Leliana . . . I agree with you.

Alistair is a gray warden. His only mission should be to end the blight. That is what gray wardens do -- whatever it takes to end the blight. How he feels, very understandable. What he does, not so much so.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 janvier 2010 - 06:28 .

[Vicious]

All Loghain cares about is the survival of Ferelden. His methods can thus be quite questionable. Sometimes he is vindicated, as in RtO, where you find out the battle was in fact quite unwinnable and Loghain actually saved a big chunk of Ferelden's military by withdrawing. Other times he isn't, as in, well, pretty much everything else.



But if you think he doesn't care about Ferelden first, in RtO, tell him you'd rather leave Cailan strung up by the Darkspawn and watch Loghain blow his stack. it's pretty funny.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
So, to take you quite literally, you are saying that my feelings about Alistair are a lie, and you must circle the wagons to protect future generations of readers from uncovering the fact that people disagree with you, hence becoming one of the people that tells me that my opinion is invalid.  Thanks for clearing that up.  I thought you would fail to pick up on the fact that you are indeed one of the people that tells me I'm wrong for believing what I believe.  You even say both that I am and that I'm not wrong, in the same post.

Nope. I'm not saying your felings are a lie. That would be stupid.
But feelings are ultimatively based on something.

This is exactly right, no matter how you may feel about something, it has no bearing on how anyone feels about something.  So here you are, trying to build up to telling me how wrong my feelings are:

I'm saying that your reasoning and conclusions are flawed or at least based on wrong definitions (which would make the reasoning sound, but the final conclusion still wrong).
An oppinion really isn't invalid.
But it can lean towards truth or not,  more or less to a certain degree.

What?  So my feelings can only be right to a certain degree?  So outside of this degree, my feelings are wrong?  Who the sam hell are you to judge whether or not my feelings are right or wrong?

In this example, your feelings towards Al are not wrong. You can hate him as much as you like.
But defining him as Emo is wrong by any definition I'm familiar with. Ultimatively, this colors your feeling towards him.

Perhaps you need to update your definitions.  One thing you definitely need to do is quit telling people that their feelings are wrong, and right in the same post.  You aren't proving anything but that you are really irrelevant in conversations, since you just want to argue, and hope that nobody reads what you write.  Feel free to respond to this, but really, there's not much point.  You've already shown that you are simply here to prove that I'm wrong, and since you can't tell me whether I am or not, you've really got nothing to add.  Cya.

[Tirigon]

@Robert: Feelings can´t be wrong, but definitions can.



Emo = Annoying ****** with ridiculous hair and no individuality.



Whether or not you think this applies to Alistair is depending on your attitude. It sort of does, imo. But not enough to Say Alistair is Emo. Maybe he´s Scene?!

[Hezulkai]

ejoslin wrote...

@Hezulkai

Sten feels ending the blight is the most important thing -- as shown by him staying with you after you get him his sword. And take him to the gauntlet -- he knows he failed because of what he did to the family.

Oghren will kill his wife for you. Nuff said.

Zevran, if you earn his loyalty, will stick with you no matter what. But you really can't expect someone with absolutely no ties to you who you don't treat well and who has no interest in the blight to stick with you, can you? He's there because he has to be at first, whether he stays with the group afterwards, once given a chance to escape, depends entirely on where he loyalties lie.  The fact that he doesn't try to kill you again, when he would have plenty of chances to, in the time between you taking him in and the time you encounter his past does show that he at least is willing to give the PC a chance.

Wynne and Leliana . . . I agree with you.

Alistair is a gray warden. His only mission should be to end the blight. That is what gray wardens do -- whatever it takes to end the blight. How he feels, very understandable. What he does, not so much so.

In my opinion, Sten knows what he did was wrong, but he was in the cage because he lost his sword.  He tells you first thing that he killed a family, but the dialogue tree leading to the sword quest starts with "Now will you tell me why you were in that cage?".  He caged himself because he killed the people because he lost the sword; evidence of a weak mind.  My take on it is that he is punishing himself for the loss of his 'mind', which I see as the sword not because of what he did.  It's a subtle difference, and I can see why other people take it a different way.  The way I understand his character, if the sword was, say, found outside the farmhouse after the murder, he would have carried on with his mission, seeking redemption in his own way with his own people.  The loss of the sword meant he couldn't do that, so he chose a very long and protracted suicide instead.

I actually find Ohgren one of the most honest characters in the game.  Everything he says and wants is right up front, and there's very little subterfuge with him.  In fact, Dog has more guile a lot of the time.  Ohgren is driven by impulse and as such is astoundingly easy to read and predict and it makes him very likeable to me.

Zev sticks with you, and swears an oath to be loyal, which he is happy to renege on at the first opportunity.  I like Zev, and find him a lot deeper than he seems but the fact remains, he swore an oath.  While he will only once turn on you, he will ask to leave on several other occasions.  He was obviously never a noble, white knight character, so this is to be expected, but still.

As for Alistair, I don't find it out of character that he would leave the party.  I don't find it out of character that he still goes to the fight even when he is no longer in the party.  I do find leaving the wardens completely a little out of character.  After all, you are physically a warden.  It's like getting annoyed and saying 'well fine, I'm not a dwarf anymore, I'm a human now'.  It doesn't work like that.  I don't defend his actions there, however, I guess I argue on the side of moderation.  I don't see why this makes him any worse than anyone else.  Perhaps because he tried to fly higher, he fell further, but any of your party is but one action or step away from that fall.  In my opinion, when the PC chooses Loghain as a warden, they actually make that fall themselves (and it's a fascinating story, so I encourage even hard core Alistair lovers to try the Loghain ending).  I can respect other people seeing it differently, all I can offer is one take on it.

[BBSooner]

After the Landsmeet Alistair broke up with my Elven Female Mage who had a relationship since just about the end of Lothering.

So what did I do?

I slept with Leliana.

[Tirigon]

BBSooner wrote...

After the Landsmeet Alistair broke up with my Elven Female Mage who had a relationship since just about the end of Lothering.

So what did I do?

I slept with Leliana.

Happy guy. When Ali dumped me, I had already dumped both Zev and Leliana for him. Damned assclown, this Ali.
I wish he´d listen to his feelings, not to his sense for duty.

[robertthebard]

Tirigon wrote...

BBSooner wrote...

After the Landsmeet Alistair broke up with my Elven Female Mage who had a relationship since just about the end of Lothering.

So what did I do?

I slept with Leliana.

Happy guy. When Ali dumped me, I had already dumped both Zev and Leliana for him. Damned assclown, this Ali.
I wish he´d listen to his feelings, not to his sense for duty.

Listening to his feelings is all he does, that's why he'll abandon you at the Landsmeet if you spare Loghain.  As far as he's concerned at this point, duty can be damned.

[Tirigon]

But if you make him king he dumps you if you play non-noble.

[Thor Rand Al]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
What does Alistair do? The only thing he shows is his own SELFISH needs. He lies to you because he is afraid, even though the reason Loghain even sends assassins after you is because of HIM. He says he doesn't want the throne at all, and when you say you support Anora he is very relieved in fact.

Just out of curiousity what selfish needs does Alistair show... So far as I've seen after playing multiple games is that all Alistair really does is offer suggestions... he reminds me of a lil lost puppy looking for guidance n maybe some compassion n love... As far as not telling you right out about his parentage well I can understand why he wouldn't tell you, look at the way he's been raised n treated all his life because of who his father was... The only time he's ever felt like he was needed was being a Grey Warden...
As far as being King well when he tells you that Maric is his father in Redcliff he's got mixed emotions about wanting to become 1 after he makes the comment "if Eamon really is sick" but he dosn't say yes or no about wanting to become King, all he says is he doesn't want to think about it... Thats for the player to make that choice... even when you harden him n make him King I get the feeling that his hearts not really into it then cause so far from doing a lot of different endings Alistair just doesn't seem like thats what he really wanted, if your a female human noble n marry him n he becomes King n you decide to stay with the Grey Wardens he doesn't stay in Denerim but goes to where your at, or if you marry him n stay at his side he leaves but really the only reason he comes back is because of you not the throne.
In all actuality Alistair really doesn't want the throne even if you harden him, he says he's come to terms with the idea but his heart aint really into it... The first home Alistairs really had is with the Grey Wardens, the first time he's ever felt he's been wanted... All he really wants is a family, someone to let him know that he is loved and wanted, that he is appreciated not for who his father was but who he is, but that he himself is still trying to figure out. I think thats where Alistairs heart really lays... His nightmare in the Fade is the perfect example, it's not about him being King, it's not about the Wardens, it's about having a family, being accepted n loved n wanted... if he's being selfish for wanting that well then everyone's selfish for wanting to be happy...

[ejoslin]

Hezulkai wrote...

In my opinion, Sten knows what he did was wrong, but he was in the cage because he lost his sword.  He tells you first thing that he killed a family, but the dialogue tree leading to the sword quest starts with "Now will you tell me why you were in that cage?".  He caged himself because he killed the people because he lost the sword; evidence of a weak mind.  My take on it is that he is punishing himself for the loss of his 'mind', which I see as the sword not because of what he did.  It's a subtle difference, and I can see why other people take it a different way.  The way I understand his character, if the sword was, say, found outside the farmhouse after the murder, he would have carried on with his mission, seeking redemption in his own way with his own people.  The loss of the sword meant he couldn't do that, so he chose a very long and protracted suicide instead.

I actually find Ohgren one of the most honest characters in the game.  Everything he says and wants is right up front, and there's very little subterfuge with him.  In fact, Dog has more guile a lot of the time.  Ohgren is driven by impulse and as such is astoundingly easy to read and predict and it makes him very likeable to me.

Zev sticks with you, and swears an oath to be loyal, which he is happy to renege on at the first opportunity.  I like Zev, and find him a lot deeper than he seems but the fact remains, he swore an oath.  While he will only once turn on you, he will ask to leave on several other occasions.  He was obviously never a noble, white knight character, so this is to be expected, but still.

As for Alistair, I don't find it out of character that he would leave the party.  I don't find it out of character that he still goes to the fight even when he is no longer in the party.  I do find leaving the wardens completely a little out of character.  After all, you are physically a warden.  It's like getting annoyed and saying 'well fine, I'm not a dwarf anymore, I'm a human now'.  It doesn't work like that.  I don't defend his actions there, however, I guess I argue on the side of moderation.  I don't see why this makes him any worse than anyone else.  Perhaps because he tried to fly higher, he fell further, but any of your party is but one action or step away from that fall.  In my opinion, when the PC chooses Loghain as a warden, they actually make that fall themselves (and it's a fascinating story, so I encourage even hard core Alistair lovers to try the Loghain ending).  I can respect other people seeing it differently, all I can offer is one take on it.

With Zevran, he will ask to stay if he likes you enough.  It truly is a case of you get what you give when it comes to him.  Since I like him and usually romance him, I have only had him ask to leave once (he only asks to leave if he's not being romanced, if he is, he asks to stay), and then after a persuade check, he never asked to leave and as a friend rebuilt the gray wardens. 

I know what Sten says at the camp.  I also know what he says at the Gauntlet -- he's part of my regular party.  He knows he failed.

I agree that it is in Alistair's character to leave the party.  He is a weak person.  But he doesn't go to the fight.  You see him no where.  You see Irving, you see whatshisface from the leigon of the dead, you see Bann Teagan, you see Arl Eamon . . .  Alistair is not there if he leaves.  He refuses to fight the blight -- you choose the right dialogs, he'll tell you to have fun doing so yourself. 

Edit: The reason why it's worse if Alistair leaves than anyone else is he IS a gray warden, he knows what is most important is they end the blight.  I can see him hating the PC, publicly berating her, whatever.  It's not like the PC has great love of Loghain -- she also has been through the wringer because of him, as has Riorden, actually, who has been tortured by Howe.  Alistair is unable to put his personal feelings aside to do what he swore to do.  He's not only breaking his word to the PC, he's breaking his word to the gray wardens, at a time when he knows every gray warden is needed.  His feeling of anger and betrayal does not stop the fact that this is a blight, and he swore that he would end that before anything else.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 janvier 2010 - 10:30 .

[robertthebard]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
What does Alistair do? The only thing he shows is his own SELFISH needs. He lies to you because he is afraid, even though the reason Loghain even sends assassins after you is because of HIM. He says he doesn't want the throne at all, and when you say you support Anora he is very relieved in fact.

Just out of curiousity what selfish needs does Alistair show... So far as I've seen after playing multiple games is that all Alistair really does is offer suggestions... he reminds me of a lil lost puppy looking for guidance n maybe some compassion n love... As far as not telling you right out about his parentage well I can understand why he wouldn't tell you, look at the way he's been raised n treated all his life because of who his father was... The only time he's ever felt like he was needed was being a Grey Warden...
As far as being King well when he tells you that Maric is his father in Redcliff he's got mixed emotions about wanting to become 1 after he makes the comment "if Eamon really is sick" but he dosn't say yes or no about wanting to become King, all he says is he doesn't want to think about it... Thats for the player to make that choice... even when you harden him n make him King I get the feeling that his hearts not really into it then cause so far from doing a lot of different endings Alistair just doesn't seem like thats what he really wanted, if your a female human noble n marry him n he becomes King n you decide to stay with the Grey Wardens he doesn't stay in Denerim but goes to where your at, or if you marry him n stay at his side he leaves but really the only reason he comes back is because of you not the throne.
In all actuality Alistair really doesn't want the throne even if you harden him, he says he's come to terms with the idea but his heart aint really into it... The first home Alistairs really had is with the Grey Wardens, the first time he's ever felt he's been wanted... All he really wants is a family, someone to let him know that he is loved and wanted, that he is appreciated not for who his father was but who he is, but that he himself is still trying to figure out. I think thats where Alistairs heart really lays... His nightmare in the Fade is the perfect example, it's not about him being King, it's not about the Wardens, it's about having a family, being accepted n loved n wanted... if he's being selfish for wanting that well then everyone's selfish for wanting to be happy...

Yeah, because bringing Loghain to justice is so much easier for people with no political clout.  It's a damn shame that he feels it's more important to not be viewed differently the whole game, depending on when you do Redcliffe, than it is to bring Loghain to justice, despite what he says at Flemeth's hut.  This is, however, consistent with his character.  Nothing you go through will be worse than his poor abused childhood, and how terrible it is to be the King's heir.  You are absolutely correct, there is no reason for Alistair to volunteer his heritage, and Eamon is just being a real ass to suggest that Alistair be put forward for the crown.

[wwwwowwww]

[quote]robertthebard wrote...

[quote]wwwwowwww wrote...

[quote]robertthebard wrote...

[quote]Spuro wrote...

I thought the whole 'emo' phase has moved on already. Especially the people who don't even know the meaning of 'emo.'

Anyway, Alistair is awesome, it was a pleasant surprise to see him finally speak his mind for once at the Landsmeet and not worry about sucking up to others. Just kill Loghain, he deserves it anyway.[/quote]


[quote]robertthebard wrote...Actually, if I could kill Alistair before the Landsmeet, I would.

I'm not telling you I'm the heir apparent to the throne because you'll look at me differently = emo.[/quote]

Really? I didn't know, that wishing to live a normal life without people treating you differently was considered emo, hmmmmm so every gay, ethnic, and religious person who keeps their private lives to themselves is emo?


I'm not telling you I'm the heir apparent to the throne because I don't trust you, but I'll trust you enough to lead us for stopping the Blight.


[quote]robertthebard wrote...Every dialog coming down to crying about Duncan being dead = emo, until you find out who he is, and then he gets to cry about not wanting to be who he is = emo.[/quote]

Wow a friend dies and you cry so your emo huh? 
Not being particularly proud of where your from is also emo? 

My word I guess according to you 99% of our planet is EMO, guess I learn something everyday. Also guess there were some Punk Rock Bards in Ferelden to start that EMO movement. Eh, who knew?
[/quote]
Again the fascination with the Rock Band to say "Nuh uh".  Care to substantiate any of these comments, or is "Nuh uh" all you're capable of?  You know, because crying is one thing, but breaking down emotionally 1 year later is kind of emo. [/quote]







lol Please show me where I responded with Nuh uh? And what exactly to I need to subsantiate? 

Wow a whole year later huh? With no real time to morn or deal with what's happend and it's EMO to still have strong emotions over it? Again, who knew? Eh........
















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[Thor Rand Al]

robertthebard wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
What does Alistair do? The only thing he shows is his own SELFISH needs. He lies to you because he is afraid, even though the reason Loghain even sends assassins after you is because of HIM. He says he doesn't want the throne at all, and when you say you support Anora he is very relieved in fact.

Just out of curiousity what selfish needs does Alistair show... So far as I've seen after playing multiple games is that all Alistair really does is offer suggestions... he reminds me of a lil lost puppy looking for guidance n maybe some compassion n love... As far as not telling you right out about his parentage well I can understand why he wouldn't tell you, look at the way he's been raised n treated all his life because of who his father was... The only time he's ever felt like he was needed was being a Grey Warden...
As far as being King well when he tells you that Maric is his father in Redcliff he's got mixed emotions about wanting to become 1 after he makes the comment "if Eamon really is sick" but he dosn't say yes or no about wanting to become King, all he says is he doesn't want to think about it... Thats for the player to make that choice... even when you harden him n make him King I get the feeling that his hearts not really into it then cause so far from doing a lot of different endings Alistair just doesn't seem like thats what he really wanted, if your a female human noble n marry him n he becomes King n you decide to stay with the Grey Wardens he doesn't stay in Denerim but goes to where your at, or if you marry him n stay at his side he leaves but really the only reason he comes back is because of you not the throne.
In all actuality Alistair really doesn't want the throne even if you harden him, he says he's come to terms with the idea but his heart aint really into it... The first home Alistairs really had is with the Grey Wardens, the first time he's ever felt he's been wanted... All he really wants is a family, someone to let him know that he is loved and wanted, that he is appreciated not for who his father was but who he is, but that he himself is still trying to figure out. I think thats where Alistairs heart really lays... His nightmare in the Fade is the perfect example, it's not about him being King, it's not about the Wardens, it's about having a family, being accepted n loved n wanted... if he's being selfish for wanting that well then everyone's selfish for wanting to be happy...

Yeah, because bringing Loghain to justice is so much easier for people with no political clout.  It's a damn shame that he feels it's more important to not be viewed differently the whole game, depending on when you do Redcliffe, than it is to bring Loghain to justice, despite what he says at Flemeth's hut.  This is, however, consistent with his character.  Nothing you go through will be worse than his poor abused childhood, and how terrible it is to be the King's heir.  You are absolutely correct, there is no reason for Alistair to volunteer his heritage, and Eamon is just being a real ass to suggest that Alistair be put forward for the crown.

Ok so if you've played the human noble then what would you do if you were given the same option as is given for Loghain... Would you want to let Howe live n become a Warden or would you want him to die for the crimes that he's committed... I'm glad I never had to choose that option cause every time it would be death n I would be looked at as being selfish... Alistair wanting Loghain dead for; killing his brother (whether he was acknowledged or not), for Loghain betraying the Wardens n the King, for making it harder for the Wardens to fight the blight (which is their duty, nothing else) n putting Ferelden in civil war with each other instead of uniting together n dealing with the blight, for being paranoid about having Orlais Wardens helping with this crises, these are all justified.  But most of all whether Cailan acknowledged Alistair or not, he was still his family n basically all Alistair really wants is family...
As for Eamon putting Alistair up forward for the throne well Alistair is Marics son, bastard or not n Eamon is looking out for the good of Ferelden n whats best for Ferelden (Alistair made King because of his bloodline)... I've never had an issue with that, it's the right thing to do...
What I'm trying to say is what does Alistair want, if you make him King n if you harden him he accepts, if not then he gets kinda pissy...  But is he really happy being King, is that really what he wanted.

[FutileEnd]

Alistair mad me laugh. That alone makes hime the most powerful charcter I've seen in a video game, I genuinely like him. He ha snever been OUT of my party EVER. I only ever recruited Loghain once for the achievment. Hardening him made him even better, because then he was all out for himself and wanting to be King.



Honestly I love him, just because of the laughing thing.

[robertthebard]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
What does Alistair do? The only thing he shows is his own SELFISH needs. He lies to you because he is afraid, even though the reason Loghain even sends assassins after you is because of HIM. He says he doesn't want the throne at all, and when you say you support Anora he is very relieved in fact.

Just out of curiousity what selfish needs does Alistair show... So far as I've seen after playing multiple games is that all Alistair really does is offer suggestions... he reminds me of a lil lost puppy looking for guidance n maybe some compassion n love... As far as not telling you right out about his parentage well I can understand why he wouldn't tell you, look at the way he's been raised n treated all his life because of who his father was... The only time he's ever felt like he was needed was being a Grey Warden...
As far as being King well when he tells you that Maric is his father in Redcliff he's got mixed emotions about wanting to become 1 after he makes the comment "if Eamon really is sick" but he dosn't say yes or no about wanting to become King, all he says is he doesn't want to think about it... Thats for the player to make that choice... even when you harden him n make him King I get the feeling that his hearts not really into it then cause so far from doing a lot of different endings Alistair just doesn't seem like thats what he really wanted, if your a female human noble n marry him n he becomes King n you decide to stay with the Grey Wardens he doesn't stay in Denerim but goes to where your at, or if you marry him n stay at his side he leaves but really the only reason he comes back is because of you not the throne.
In all actuality Alistair really doesn't want the throne even if you harden him, he says he's come to terms with the idea but his heart aint really into it... The first home Alistairs really had is with the Grey Wardens, the first time he's ever felt he's been wanted... All he really wants is a family, someone to let him know that he is loved and wanted, that he is appreciated not for who his father was but who he is, but that he himself is still trying to figure out. I think thats where Alistairs heart really lays... His nightmare in the Fade is the perfect example, it's not about him being King, it's not about the Wardens, it's about having a family, being accepted n loved n wanted... if he's being selfish for wanting that well then everyone's selfish for wanting to be happy...

Yeah, because bringing Loghain to justice is so much easier for people with no political clout.  It's a damn shame that he feels it's more important to not be viewed differently the whole game, depending on when you do Redcliffe, than it is to bring Loghain to justice, despite what he says at Flemeth's hut.  This is, however, consistent with his character.  Nothing you go through will be worse than his poor abused childhood, and how terrible it is to be the King's heir.  You are absolutely correct, there is no reason for Alistair to volunteer his heritage, and Eamon is just being a real ass to suggest that Alistair be put forward for the crown.

Ok so if you've played the human noble then what would you do if you were given the same option as is given for Loghain... Would you want to let Howe live n become a Warden or would you want him to die for the crimes that he's committed... I'm glad I never had to choose that option cause every time it would be death n I would be looked at as being selfish... Alistair wanting Loghain dead for; killing his brother (whether he was acknowledged or not), for Loghain betraying the Wardens n the King, for making it harder for the Wardens to fight the blight (which is their duty, nothing else) n putting Ferelden in civil war with each other instead of uniting together n dealing with the blight, for being paranoid about having Orlais Wardens helping with this crises, these are all justified.  But most of all whether Cailan acknowledged Alistair or not, he was still his family n basically all Alistair really wants is family...
As for Eamon putting Alistair up forward for the throne well Alistair is Marics son, bastard or not n Eamon is looking out for the good of Ferelden n whats best for Ferelden (Alistair made King because of his bloodline)... I've never had an issue with that, it's the right thing to do...
What I'm trying to say is what does Alistair want, if you make him King n if you harden him he accepts, if not then he gets kinda pissy...  But is he really happy being King, is that really what he wanted.

This has been asked and answered by me in this very thread, but again, if Riordan suggested it, I'd do it.  I'd feel really dirty, and I'd be sure to be the one to get the killing blow, but I'd do it.

The only thing about Cailan's death that Alistair cares about is that it forces him to have to come forward to be King.  Evidently, you are under the impression that I am unhappy about Alistair because of the Landsmeet.  You haven't been reading this thread.  The Landsmeet is insignificant to me.  Based on him the whole game prior to, it's hard to be surprised by it.  His priority is Duncan, and you can see it in almost any dialog prior to Redcliffe, and then we get to hear all about how he doesn't want to be king.  Joy.  I don't have to harden Alistair any more.  I leave him in camp with his box of Kleenex.  I don't tolerate his kind of behavior from my grandkids, I'm sure not going to take it in a role playing game.  If I could kill him, or kick him to the curb after Lothering, which he spends most of in camp anyway, I surely would.

[ejoslin]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Ok so if you've played the human noble then what would you do if you were given the same option as is given for Loghain... Would you want to let Howe live n become a Warden or would you want him to die for the crimes that he's committed... I'm glad I never had to choose that option cause every time it would be death n I would be looked at as being selfish... Alistair wanting Loghain dead for; killing his brother (whether he was acknowledged or not), for Loghain betraying the Wardens n the King, for making it harder for the Wardens to fight the blight (which is their duty, nothing else) n putting Ferelden in civil war with each other instead of uniting together n dealing with the blight, for being paranoid about having Orlais Wardens helping with this crises, these are all justified.  But most of all whether Cailan acknowledged Alistair or not, he was still his family n basically all Alistair really wants is family...
As for Eamon putting Alistair up forward for the throne well Alistair is Marics son, bastard or not n Eamon is looking out for the good of Ferelden n whats best for Ferelden (Alistair made King because of his bloodline)... I've never had an issue with that, it's the right thing to do...
What I'm trying to say is what does Alistair want, if you make him King n if you harden him he accepts, if not then he gets kinda pissy...  But is he really happy being King, is that really what he wanted.

Someone slaughtering your family, including your nephew and sister-in-law is somehow not a whole lot worse?  And what did Duncan tell the HN?  Something about . . . ending the blight comes before vengeance.  The HN wasn't even allowed to look for her brother to tell him.

Edit: And the HN, instead of stamping her feet, immediately after seeing her family and current lover slaughtered, knowing her father and mother were most likely tortured, then had to put on the mantle of leader because Alistair could not do it because his grief was too great over an order and people he had known for 6 months.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 janvier 2010 - 01:38 .

[robertthebard]

ejoslin wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Ok so if you've played the human noble then what would you do if you were given the same option as is given for Loghain... Would you want to let Howe live n become a Warden or would you want him to die for the crimes that he's committed... I'm glad I never had to choose that option cause every time it would be death n I would be looked at as being selfish... Alistair wanting Loghain dead for; killing his brother (whether he was acknowledged or not), for Loghain betraying the Wardens n the King, for making it harder for the Wardens to fight the blight (which is their duty, nothing else) n putting Ferelden in civil war with each other instead of uniting together n dealing with the blight, for being paranoid about having Orlais Wardens helping with this crises, these are all justified.  But most of all whether Cailan acknowledged Alistair or not, he was still his family n basically all Alistair really wants is family...
As for Eamon putting Alistair up forward for the throne well Alistair is Marics son, bastard or not n Eamon is looking out for the good of Ferelden n whats best for Ferelden (Alistair made King because of his bloodline)... I've never had an issue with that, it's the right thing to do...
What I'm trying to say is what does Alistair want, if you make him King n if you harden him he accepts, if not then he gets kinda pissy...  But is he really happy being King, is that really what he wanted.

Someone slaughtering your family, including your nephew and sister-in-law is somehow not a whole lot worse?  And what did Duncan tell the HN?  Something about . . . ending the blight comes before vengeance.  The HN wasn't even allowed to look for her brother to tell him.

Edit: And the HN, instead of stamping her feet, immediately after seeing her family and current lover slaughtered, knowing her father and mother were most likely tortured, then had to put on the mantle of leader because Alistair could not do it because his grief was too great over an order and people he had known for 6 months.

You do realize that the Alistair Fan Club expects the PC to be totally detached, as you can see by wwwwooowwww's post above, you know, where almost a full year isn't enough time for Alistair to recover from his emotional break down.  It's been posted before, however, that the time from HN origin to Ostagar is supposed to be enough for the HN to get over watching her dying father being blackmailed into allowing Duncan to recruit the PC, and their deaths.  We're supposed to be able to completely forget, by Ostagar, that we walked into Fergus' room to see our nephew dead on the floor along with his mother, not to mention our mother's visitors.  According to the Alistair Fan Club, Duncan's death is an event that it is impossible to recover from.

[wwwwowwww]

robertthebard wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Ok so if you've played the human noble then what would you do if you were given the same option as is given for Loghain... Would you want to let Howe live n become a Warden or would you want him to die for the crimes that he's committed... I'm glad I never had to choose that option cause every time it would be death n I would be looked at as being selfish... Alistair wanting Loghain dead for; killing his brother (whether he was acknowledged or not), for Loghain betraying the Wardens n the King, for making it harder for the Wardens to fight the blight (which is their duty, nothing else) n putting Ferelden in civil war with each other instead of uniting together n dealing with the blight, for being paranoid about having Orlais Wardens helping with this crises, these are all justified.  But most of all whether Cailan acknowledged Alistair or not, he was still his family n basically all Alistair really wants is family...
As for Eamon putting Alistair up forward for the throne well Alistair is Marics son, bastard or not n Eamon is looking out for the good of Ferelden n whats best for Ferelden (Alistair made King because of his bloodline)... I've never had an issue with that, it's the right thing to do...
What I'm trying to say is what does Alistair want, if you make him King n if you harden him he accepts, if not then he gets kinda pissy...  But is he really happy being King, is that really what he wanted.

Someone slaughtering your family, including your nephew and sister-in-law is somehow not a whole lot worse?  And what did Duncan tell the HN?  Something about . . . ending the blight comes before vengeance.  The HN wasn't even allowed to look for her brother to tell him.

Edit: And the HN, instead of stamping her feet, immediately after seeing her family and current lover slaughtered, knowing her father and mother were most likely tortured, then had to put on the mantle of leader because Alistair could not do it because his grief was too great over an order and people he had known for 6 months.

You do realize that the Alistair Fan Club expects the PC to be totally detached, as you can see by wwwwooowwww's post above, you know, where almost a full year isn't enough time for Alistair to recover from his emotional break down.  It's been posted before, however, that the time from HN origin to Ostagar is supposed to be enough for the HN to get over watching her dying father being blackmailed into allowing Duncan to recruit the PC, and their deaths.  We're supposed to be able to completely forget, by Ostagar, that we walked into Fergus' room to see our nephew dead on the floor along with his mother, not to mention our mother's visitors.  According to the Alistair Fan Club, Duncan's death is an event that it is impossible to recover from.

Ok first off I am not in the Alistair fanclub, in fact I'm not particularly fond of him, but I also don't think he is EMO. That was what my argument was about, not what a great character he was or wasn't.

Every time I play a HN it bothers me that I am supposed to let it go, that is why most of the times I pick the most callous responses to everyone when I start, I try to play a grieving character to the best of my ability with the options I choose. Which usually lead to what most would consider evil towards the begining of the game. However, for me I see them as choices by someone who honestly doesnt care anymore. As the game progresses I will slowly come out of this and start to do more and more of the "honorable" type things.

After all it's a role playing game, and with the limited choices I get I do my best with it even if only some of it I can do within my own head.

[Hezulkai]

ejoslin wrote...

With Zevran, he will ask to stay if he likes you enough.  It truly is a case of you get what you give when it comes to him.  Since I like him and usually romance him, I have only had him ask to leave once (he only asks to leave if he's not being romanced, if he is, he asks to stay), and then after a persuade check, he never asked to leave and as a friend rebuilt the gray wardens. 

I know what Sten says at the camp.  I also know what he says at the Gauntlet -- he's part of my regular party.  He knows he failed.

I agree that it is in Alistair's character to leave the party.  He is a weak person.  But he doesn't go to the fight.  You see him no where.  You see Irving, you see whatshisface from the leigon of the dead, you see Bann Teagan, you see Arl Eamon . . .  Alistair is not there if he leaves.  He refuses to fight the blight -- you choose the right dialogs, he'll tell you to have fun doing so yourself. 

Edit: The reason why it's worse if Alistair leaves than anyone else is he IS a gray warden, he knows what is most important is they end the blight.  I can see him hating the PC, publicly berating her, whatever.  It's not like the PC has great love of Loghain -- she also has been through the wringer because of him, as has Riorden, actually, who has been tortured by Howe.  Alistair is unable to put his personal feelings aside to do what he swore to do.  He's not only breaking his word to the PC, he's breaking his word to the gray wardens, at a time when he knows every gray warden is needed.  His feeling of anger and betrayal does not stop the fact that this is a blight, and he swore that he would end that before anything else.

You don't see Alistair, but if I recall, Anora tells you that Alistair insists on joining the fight.  You don't see Riordan from the city gate until his swan dive off the archdemon, but he's there as well.  You don't see Teagan until the cutscene, but he's there as well.  You don't see Eamon until the final battle, but hey, there he is.  Anyway, it's neither never-no-mind which you believe.  All we're arguing is one version of one playthrough.  As you say with Zev, you get out of it what you put into it.  You get the ending you aim for, and you steer events where you want them to be.  It's interesting that all this can be said for any character.

It all comes down to opinion, and when the opinion is what character you like, everyone has their own.  I personally cannot see any reason to recruit Loghain, ever.  More than any personal issue, he has actively worked to destroy Ferelden.  Not passively watched it happen, or deferred to someone else, he deliberately and with malice cut down the support systems of the nation, preferring to see it ground to dust before allowing someone else to rule.   He has never given any indication he believes in the wardens or their mission.  This is a man who holds a great deal of responsibility for the deaths of every other warden in Ferelden.  You have someone to lead the army.  He'd be a front line grunt like the PC, so you're not making use of his tactical knowledge.  He's burned bridges with every noble house save the bald dude, so he brings no allies.  All he would do would be to divide the line and cause problems in any political or tactical setting.  You only get the chance to recruit him because you beat the crap out of him.  He has no regret, he comes to no big moral revelation, he's not doing it because it's right.  He's doing it because he's trapped and he has to.  Call me crazy, but desperate criminals facing a death sentence if they stay with me, who have also tried multiple times to murder me, would not be tops on my list of potential allies for a final battle.

For me this variation of the Landmeet causes all sorts of problems, for as much as Alistair leaving the wardens seems out of left field, Loghain's redemption is equally empty for me.  In both cases, I feel like it was a kind of tacked on ending.  I've played this ending through a couple times to go through the dialogue options.  It makes sense superficially but it doesn't when you start really thinking about it in either case.

[ejoslin]

robertthebard wrote...

You do realize that the Alistair Fan Club expects the PC to be totally detached, as you can see by wwwwooowwww's post above, you know, where almost a full year isn't enough time for Alistair to recover from his emotional break down.  It's been posted before, however, that the time from HN origin to Ostagar is supposed to be enough for the HN to get over watching her dying father being blackmailed into allowing Duncan to recruit the PC, and their deaths.  We're supposed to be able to completely forget, by Ostagar, that we walked into Fergus' room to see our nephew dead on the floor along with his mother, not to mention our mother's visitors.  According to the Alistair Fan Club, Duncan's death is an event that it is impossible to recover from.

I do realize that the Howe/Loghain comparison is bogus.  It's actually interesting that Zevran puts what the PC went through with her family on the same level as what he went through -- Alistair actually has to be reminded of what happened. 

I can't even begin to imagine that someone who is at trusted friend of your family, a guest in your home, who uses that very friendship to slaughter everyone you love and take everything that defines you from you -- how that can even be compared.  And yes, the PC does get the chance to kill Howe, but she can't hunt him down, she just got lucky things turned out that way.  Her killing him was not for vengance, though she got that; it was to rescue the queen.  Had things not panned out like that, she would have had to wait until the blight was over before attempting to get her Terynir back and kill Howe.

[Hezulkai]

robertthebard wrote...

You do realize that the Alistair Fan Club expects the PC to be totally detached, as you can see by wwwwooowwww's post above, you know, where almost a full year isn't enough time for Alistair to recover from his emotional break down.  It's been posted before, however, that the time from HN origin to Ostagar is supposed to be enough for the HN to get over watching her dying father being blackmailed into allowing Duncan to recruit the PC, and their deaths.  We're supposed to be able to completely forget, by Ostagar, that we walked into Fergus' room to see our nephew dead on the floor along with his mother, not to mention our mother's visitors.  According to the Alistair Fan Club, Duncan's death is an event that it is impossible to recover from.

To be fair, that's the game deisgner's decision, not the fan club's.  I do like the character of Alistair, but at the same time (as someone else said), I find the PC is often written as too cold.  You can be ****y, you can be rude, you can be racist, but there are precious few 'vulnerable' type responses.  I would have love to have seen someone, anyone in the party ask the noble dwarf about their feelings on returning to Orzammar.  You have half the population grovelling, half spitting at you.  That's gotta mess with a mind, never mind that the whole plot is engineered by your little brother following the death of your father, but no.  No one notices.

Alistair does bring up an extra dialogue option for female city elf when you get to the Alienage, but all your response make short work of his concern.  "There were rapists and we got the wrong cake, it was a disaster".  Again, zero emotional depth from the PC.  I would have loved the option to scream at the party members or see some emotion from the PC, and then have the option of initiating an apology on a later conversation.  I think that's where something like Mass Effect succeeded where DA falls a little flat.  Seeing your PC talking in different tones and moods is waaaay different from line of text written on a screen.

[ejoslin]

Hezulkai wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

You do realize that the Alistair Fan Club expects the PC to be totally detached, as you can see by wwwwooowwww's post above, you know, where almost a full year isn't enough time for Alistair to recover from his emotional break down.  It's been posted before, however, that the time from HN origin to Ostagar is supposed to be enough for the HN to get over watching her dying father being blackmailed into allowing Duncan to recruit the PC, and their deaths.  We're supposed to be able to completely forget, by Ostagar, that we walked into Fergus' room to see our nephew dead on the floor along with his mother, not to mention our mother's visitors.  According to the Alistair Fan Club, Duncan's death is an event that it is impossible to recover from.

To be fair, that's the game deisgner's decision, not the fan club's.  I do like the character of Alistair, but at the same time (as someone else said), I find the PC is often written as too cold.  You can be ****y, you can be rude, you can be racist, but there are precious few 'vulnerable' type responses.  I would have love to have seen someone, anyone in the party ask the noble dwarf about their feelings on returning to Orzammar.  You have half the population grovelling, half spitting at you.  That's gotta mess with a mind, never mind that the whole plot is engineered by your little brother following the death of your father, but no.  No one notices.

Alistair does bring up an extra dialogue option for female city elf when you get to the Alienage, but all your response make short work of his concern.  "There were rapists and we got the wrong cake, it was a disaster".  Again, zero emotional depth from the PC.  I would have loved the option to scream at the party members or see some emotion from the PC, and then have the option of initiating an apology on a later conversation.  I think that's where something like Mass Effect succeeded where DA falls a little flat.  Seeing your PC talking in different tones and moods is waaaay different from line of text written on a screen.

The Alienage actually has different responses depending on whom your romance partner is, and you CAN get some emotion in there and suggest you'll talk about it later (try selecting the option, "he died.").  The game does imply that a lot more conversation and activity is going on in the camp than the game shows.  Wynne even says something to the effect that Leliana sings and dances for them on a regular basis, but WE only get to see one song.

Edit: I think the reason I like Zevran is he is the only party member who acknowledges the pain the PC is going through and actually sees that she needs cheering up.  But back to Alistair emo . . . Heh, I think his reaction is the worst of the romance partners in the Alienage.  He is so indignant. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 janvier 2010 - 02:31 .

[robertthebard]

Hezulkai wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

You do realize that the Alistair Fan Club expects the PC to be totally detached, as you can see by wwwwooowwww's post above, you know, where almost a full year isn't enough time for Alistair to recover from his emotional break down.  It's been posted before, however, that the time from HN origin to Ostagar is supposed to be enough for the HN to get over watching her dying father being blackmailed into allowing Duncan to recruit the PC, and their deaths.  We're supposed to be able to completely forget, by Ostagar, that we walked into Fergus' room to see our nephew dead on the floor along with his mother, not to mention our mother's visitors.  According to the Alistair Fan Club, Duncan's death is an event that it is impossible to recover from.

To be fair, that's the game deisgner's decision, not the fan club's.  I do like the character of Alistair, but at the same time (as someone else said), I find the PC is often written as too cold.  You can be ****y, you can be rude, you can be racist, but there are precious few 'vulnerable' type responses.  I would have love to have seen someone, anyone in the party ask the noble dwarf about their feelings on returning to Orzammar.  You have half the population grovelling, half spitting at you.  That's gotta mess with a mind, never mind that the whole plot is engineered by your little brother following the death of your father, but no.  No one notices.

Alistair does bring up an extra dialogue option for female city elf when you get to the Alienage, but all your response make short work of his concern.  "There were rapists and we got the wrong cake, it was a disaster".  Again, zero emotional depth from the PC.  I would have loved the option to scream at the party members or see some emotion from the PC, and then have the option of initiating an apology on a later conversation.  I think that's where something like Mass Effect succeeded where DA falls a little flat.  Seeing your PC talking in different tones and moods is waaaay different from line of text written on a screen.

The really sad part about party member apologies is that you get to apologize to Alistair for Alistair lying to you if you role play being shocked to learn who he is.  Then if you comment on him acting the ass about it, which he does, to the point where the writers added "Or you could just be an ass about it" to the dialog choices, he will break up with the female PC, and drop a -15 approval.  This for his lie.  I keep trying to tell people that the Landsmeet is insignificant, and that events like this one mean that I'm not going to get emotionally invested in him as a person.  It's easier for me to just ignore him in camp.  He can get as pissy as he wants there, I won't have to deal with it.