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[Tirigon]

robertthebard wrote...

This has been asked and answered by me in this very thread, but again, if Riordan suggested it, I'd do it.  I'd feel really dirty, and I'd be sure to be the one to get the killing blow, but I'd do it.

The only thing about Cailan's death that Alistair cares about is that it forces him to have to come forward to be King.  Evidently, you are under the impression that I am unhappy about Alistair because of the Landsmeet.  You haven't been reading this thread.  The Landsmeet is insignificant to me.  Based on him the whole game prior to, it's hard to be surprised by it.  His priority is Duncan, and you can see it in almost any dialog prior to Redcliffe, and then we get to hear all about how he doesn't want to be king.  Joy.  I don't have to harden Alistair any more.  I leave him in camp with his box of Kleenex.  I don't tolerate his kind of behavior from my grandkids, I'm sure not going to take it in a role playing game.  If I could kill him, or kick him to the curb after Lothering, which he spends most of in camp anyway, I surely would.

If you would really spare Howe as a Human noble because Riordan suggests it you just show you can´t think for yourself. If Riordan would try to make ME spare Howe, I´d just kill HIM, too, rather than to obey. I don´t like Riordan anyways, He´s a real ****** and useless as hell. I wonder what happens if I just leave him in the cells. Got to try when I´m there:devil:

[ejoslin]

Tirigon wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

This has been asked and answered by me in this very thread, but again, if Riordan suggested it, I'd do it.  I'd feel really dirty, and I'd be sure to be the one to get the killing blow, but I'd do it.

The only thing about Cailan's death that Alistair cares about is that it forces him to have to come forward to be King.  Evidently, you are under the impression that I am unhappy about Alistair because of the Landsmeet.  You haven't been reading this thread.  The Landsmeet is insignificant to me.  Based on him the whole game prior to, it's hard to be surprised by it.  His priority is Duncan, and you can see it in almost any dialog prior to Redcliffe, and then we get to hear all about how he doesn't want to be king.  Joy.  I don't have to harden Alistair any more.  I leave him in camp with his box of Kleenex.  I don't tolerate his kind of behavior from my grandkids, I'm sure not going to take it in a role playing game.  If I could kill him, or kick him to the curb after Lothering, which he spends most of in camp anyway, I surely would.

If you would really spare Howe as a Human noble because Riordan suggests it you just show you can´t think for yourself. If Riordan would try to make ME spare Howe, I´d just kill HIM, too, rather than to obey. I don´t like Riordan anyways, He´s a real ****** and useless as hell. I wonder what happens if I just leave him in the cells. Got to try when I´m there:devil:

Look at it this way . . .Loghain actually not only permitted Howe's slaughter of your family, he turned around, GAVE Howe your lands and titles, and elevated him to his chancellor for doing the deed.  If anything, the PC had MORE personal reasons than Alistair to want Loghain dead.  

Edit: If anything, a HN sparing Loghain should have been a reality check for Alistair and driven it home that it really is all about the blight.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 janvier 2010 - 12:50 .

[Xandurpein]

Tirigon wrote...
I don´t like Riordan anyways, He´s a real ****** and useless as hell. I wonder what happens if I just leave him in the cells. Got to try when I´m there:devil:

The Grey Warden's loose, because Riordan's sacrifice is what forces the Archdemon to come down to the ground...

[Tirigon]

Xandurpein wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
I don´t like Riordan anyways, He´s a real ****** and useless as hell. I wonder what happens if I just leave him in the cells. Got to try when I´m there:devil:

The Grey Warden's loose, because Riordan's sacrifice is what forces the Archdemon to come down to the ground...

Really?
Is it possible to loose the game?

[Tirigon]

ejoslin wrote...

Look at it this way . . .Loghain actually not only permitted Howe's slaughter of your family, he turned around, GAVE Howe your lands and titles, and elevated him to his chancellor for doing the deed.  If anything, the PC had MORE personal reasons than Alistair to want Loghain dead.  

Edit: If anything, a HN sparing Loghain should have been a reality check for Alistair and driven it home that it really is all about the blight.

It is a valid position to take that everything is about the blight. If you look at it that way, I see why you dislike Alistair.
But I think there is more than the blight. The blight is nothing but a minor inconvenience.

[Kohaku]

I doubt you can leave him Tirigon. He seems a bit plot critical to just get left in a cell when all the Arch Demon smashing is going on. I think he wants a piece after all.

[ejoslin]

Tirigon wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Look at it this way . . .Loghain actually not only permitted Howe's slaughter of your family, he turned around, GAVE Howe your lands and titles, and elevated him to his chancellor for doing the deed.  If anything, the PC had MORE personal reasons than Alistair to want Loghain dead.  

Edit: If anything, a HN sparing Loghain should have been a reality check for Alistair and driven it home that it really is all about the blight.

It is a valid position to take that everything is about the blight. If you look at it that way, I see why you dislike Alistair.
But I think there is more than the blight. The blight is nothing but a minor inconvenience.

I don't dislike Alistair -- I actually like the character though not as a romance partner.  I just don't whitewash his flaws, either.  It IS about the blight, that is what Duncan hammered into the PC's head from the start.  That's what Riorden was saying as well.  Personal feelings are just not as important as the stoping blight, which must be stopped no matter WHAT the cost.  Alistair went against everything the gray wardens stand for when he let his personal feelings get in the way of stopping the blight.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 janvier 2010 - 01:19 .

[Tirigon]

ejoslin wrote...

I don't dislike Alistair -- I actually like the character though not as a romance partner.  I just don't whitewash his flaws, either.  It IS about the blight, that is what Duncan hammered into the PC's head from the start.  That's what Riorden was saying as well.  Personal feelings are just not as important as the stoping blight, which must be stopped no matter WHAT the cost.  Alistair went against everything the gray wardens stand for when he let his personal feelings get in the way of stopping the blight.  

See? That´s it. Duncan and Riordan say something. Why is this law? I just dislike Riordan (though I don´t know why exactly, maybe because he´s Orlaisian^^),   so I don´t care for what he thinks, and DUNCAN!? As a city elf I liked him, because he saved my ass, but as a Human noble he acts like a real assclown, and besides he´s dead, so why would I care for what he says?

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
Perhaps you need to update your definitions.  One thing you definitely need to do is quit telling people that their feelings are wrong, and right in the same post.  You aren't proving anything but that you are really irrelevant in conversations, since you just want to argue, and hope that nobody reads what you write.  Feel free to respond to this, but really, there's not much point.  You've already shown that you are simply here to prove that I'm wrong, and since you can't tell me whether I am or not, you've really got nothing to add.  Cya.

Is this blindness to the obvious a trait specific to you or something? Howe can you possibly misconstruct what I'm saying for the n'th time?
If you really can't tell the difference between feeling and the (sometimes false)premises on which those feelings are built, then I pitty you.

[ejoslin]

Tirigon wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I don't dislike Alistair -- I actually like the character though not as a romance partner.  I just don't whitewash his flaws, either.  It IS about the blight, that is what Duncan hammered into the PC's head from the start.  That's what Riorden was saying as well.  Personal feelings are just not as important as the stoping blight, which must be stopped no matter WHAT the cost.  Alistair went against everything the gray wardens stand for when he let his personal feelings get in the way of stopping the blight.  

See? That´s it. Duncan and Riordan say something. Why is this law? I just dislike Riordan (though I don´t know why exactly, maybe because he´s Orlaisian^^),   so I don´t care for what he thinks, and DUNCAN!? As a city elf I liked him, because he saved my ass, but as a Human noble he acts like a real assclown, and besides he´s dead, so why would I care for what he says?

Because it's not about your personal feelings.  Like or hate the rest of the wardens, the only reason to go through the joining and cut your life short, live with nightmares, become sterile and all those other lovely things is to protect the world against the blight.  That's your purpose, that is why you bear the taint.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ejoslin wrote...
I don't dislike Alistair -- I actually like the character though not as a romance partner.  I just don't whitewash his flaws, either.  It IS about the blight, that is what Duncan hammered into the PC's head from the start.  That's what Riorden was saying as well.  Personal feelings are just not as important as the stoping blight, which must be stopped no matter WHAT the cost.  Alistair went against everything the gray wardens stand for when he let his personal feelings get in the way of stopping the blight.  

Everything being about the blight is a very narrow worldview initself.
Stopping the Blight? Yes. At ANY cost? If it can be done in another way? No.

Duncan and Rhiordan have their oppinions and are entilted to them. But the PC doesn't have to share them. The PC can stop the blight his own way.
In that sense, the PC (or Alistair) don't have to do what Rhiordan suggests... and it is just a suggestion.
Both Duncan and Rhiordan can kiss my fluffy a** if the'yre not satisfied with my decision. I'm not asking for their approval.


It also depends on what you consider a Grey Warden. A title? A duty? A biological condition?
It's only a duty if you take it on willingly (or you make an oath...but I don't recall making any oaths in the game)


So. Does Alistair go against everything the GW's stand for at the Landsmeet? Maybe.
Is that something horrifying? Not really.
The GW's are not paragons of virtue (depending on the GW's in question - they are only people), so not going their way always is not really a bad thing.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 18 janvier 2010 - 01:40 .

[Tirigon]

ejoslin wrote...


Because it's not about your personal feelings.  Like or hate the rest of the wardens, the only reason to go through the joining and cut your life short, live with nightmares, become sterile and all those other lovely things is to protect the world against the blight.  That's your purpose, that is why you bear the taint.

That depends on how you roleplay. As City elf I bear the taint because the alternative is to die in a dungeon in Denerim, as Human noble I bear the taint because you don´t have an option to slap Duncan in the face when he conscripts you, as mage I did it because it´s still better than being made tranquil or getting killed. And besides, because travelling is funny if you haven´t left that f*cking tower since you were a little child.

Your point is only valid to my Dwarf noble, who actually saw a point in defeating the blight because of his experience with darkspawn.

[ejoslin]

Tirigon wrote...

ejoslin wrote...


Because it's not about your personal feelings.  Like or hate the rest of the wardens, the only reason to go through the joining and cut your life short, live with nightmares, become sterile and all those other lovely things is to protect the world against the blight.  That's your purpose, that is why you bear the taint.

That depends on how you roleplay. As City elf I bear the taint because the alternative is to die in a dungeon in Denerim, as Human noble I bear the taint because you don´t have an option to slap Duncan in the face when he conscripts you, as mage I did it because it´s still better than being made tranquil or getting killed. And besides, because travelling is funny if you haven´t left that f*cking tower since you were a little child.

Your point is only valid to my Dwarf noble, who actually saw a point in defeating the blight because of his experience with darkspawn.

But how you roleplay doesn't have much to do with the purpose of the gray wardens.  You can roleplay that you reject your order's prime objective, but that doesn't make it any less the gray warden's prime objective.  But I wonder, then, if you are rejecting that the blight is the most important thing, why you are gathering armies and going against the dark spawn?

You may not like the situation you are in, you may not like your order and how your life has been changed.  You may not feel any real passion behind what you now are and what you must do.

Sometimes I spare Loghain, most of the time I don't.  But when I kill him, it's for political, not personal reasons.  My PC knows that it's not about her.  Once the archdemon is dead, then it's time to take care of herself.  And until the civil war is ended and the PC can wage war against against the archdemon, she has to keep fighting to make that possible.

Alistair's shortcoming here is that he allowed his personal feelings to get in the way of what should have been the most important thing to him.  I think it's very understandable, and part of what makes the character seem human.  

[Tirigon]

But I don´t think his hate for Loghain really "comes in the way". It is perfectly possible to beat the Archdemon without Loghain.

[ejoslin]

Tirigon wrote...

But I don´t think his hate for Loghain really "comes in the way". It is perfectly possible to beat the Archdemon without Loghain.

But that's metagaming.  It's also perfectly possible to beat the archdemon with Alistair off sulking and getting drunk during the battle.  But that's not the conflict the PC is facing at that moment.  And the PC does not know the full consequences.  If you choose to spare Loghain, it's because you see the wisdom in having another gray warden.  Loghain has the archdemon blood, and even though he doesn't want to become a gray warden and be under your command, he also understands the importance of saving Ferelden from the blight.

[Tirigon]

It´s not metagaming it´s more me playing an AW / BM, so I just knew a lousy dragon would be no problem.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ejoslin wrote...
But that's metagaming.  It's also perfectly possible to beat the archdemon with Alistair off sulking and getting drunk during the battle.  But that's not the conflict the PC is facing at that moment.  And the PC does not know the full consequences.  If you choose to spare Loghain, it's because you see the wisdom in having another gray warden.  Loghain has the archdemon blood, and even though he doesn't want to become a gray warden and be under your command, he also understands the importance of saving Ferelden from the blight.

Nope. Not metagaming.
Logic dictates you could have used that archdemon blood to maky anyone a Grey Warden. The game doesn't give us that choice sadly.

[ejoslin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
But that's metagaming.  It's also perfectly possible to beat the archdemon with Alistair off sulking and getting drunk during the battle.  But that's not the conflict the PC is facing at that moment.  And the PC does not know the full consequences.  If you choose to spare Loghain, it's because you see the wisdom in having another gray warden.  Loghain has the archdemon blood, and even though he doesn't want to become a gray warden and be under your command, he also understands the importance of saving Ferelden from the blight.

Nope. Not metagaming.
Logic dictates you could have used that archdemon blood to maky anyone a Grey Warden. The game doesn't give us that choice sadly.

Well, since Loghain is the one who has the blood, if you kill him right there and then, you'll never find out where it is.  Which actually is another reason to spare Loghain -- you KNOW he has the blood, you don't know that he only apparently has enough to make enough for one person to join.  But if you don't kill him there and then, then well, you know what happens.

Edit: and of course you don't know that the archdemon is going to be a cakewalk.  In fact, if Riorden hadn't crippled it, you probably would have lost.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 janvier 2010 - 02:32 .

[maxernst]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nope. Not metagaming.
Logic dictates you could have used that archdemon blood to maky anyone a Grey Warden. The game doesn't give us that choice sadly.

Exactly.  Why use it on someone who has already betrayed one commander on a field of battle? 

[Sidreus]

Hmm... something dawned on me now.



PC was a warden for a day before they are diminished to 2 members. Alistair was a warden for 6 months and how come Duncan, who he sees so much in Alistair didn't mention him about how to slay an Archdemon. Alistair is an idiot that's for sure but Duncan is a man with responsibility and I can't imagine passing that knowledge (so crucial with upcoming blight) skipped his notice.



For Alistair: Keep in mind that guy is an idiot and simpleton. Don't wait for him to act with much social finesse or great thinking. What he wants from life is pleasing Duncan and having a family of his own. After Duncan's death his only goal became revenge. His most strong reactions come for two people: Arl of Redcliffe and Duncan. Blight, butchering whole clan of elves means so little to him. Maybe even the wardens if your PC on her way to form a family with him. I think he only values Wardens because he thinks them as his only family, on a first sight of chance of having his own little family he will dump wardens too. Heh he can even start to whine about not being able to have a children and dying young.

[Dridenkx]

Behindyounow wrote...

I recruited Loghain as a punishment, not a reward.

some type of punishment after he destroyed your hometown, your kingdom, your friends, family, tried to kill several kings, divided the lands, hired people to kill you, and yet you think helping you slay a demon is punishment? I'd hate to think what you would do if you found out your wife cheated and the kids aren't yours. take her credit card away for a week? lol. Anyway you slice it, that's being weak, a pushover, and a sucker to allow someone to live after disrespecting you like that. good or evil he deserves no mercy.

Modifié par Dridenkx, 18 janvier 2010 - 02:41 .

[robertthebard]

Tirigon wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

This has been asked and answered by me in this very thread, but again, if Riordan suggested it, I'd do it.  I'd feel really dirty, and I'd be sure to be the one to get the killing blow, but I'd do it.

The only thing about Cailan's death that Alistair cares about is that it forces him to have to come forward to be King.  Evidently, you are under the impression that I am unhappy about Alistair because of the Landsmeet.  You haven't been reading this thread.  The Landsmeet is insignificant to me.  Based on him the whole game prior to, it's hard to be surprised by it.  His priority is Duncan, and you can see it in almost any dialog prior to Redcliffe, and then we get to hear all about how he doesn't want to be king.  Joy.  I don't have to harden Alistair any more.  I leave him in camp with his box of Kleenex.  I don't tolerate his kind of behavior from my grandkids, I'm sure not going to take it in a role playing game.  If I could kill him, or kick him to the curb after Lothering, which he spends most of in camp anyway, I surely would.

If you would really spare Howe as a Human noble because Riordan suggests it you just show you can´t think for yourself. If Riordan would try to make ME spare Howe, I´d just kill HIM, too, rather than to obey. I don´t like Riordan anyways, He´s a real ****** and useless as hell. I wonder what happens if I just leave him in the cells. Got to try when I´m there:devil:

Wow, what a nice response.  It is, of course, irrelevant to the conversation.  As a HN, my father encouraged me to remember my duty to Ferelden, with what could be his dying breath.  This is my first responsibility, whether I like being a Grey Warden or not.  Of course, it's also impossible to suggest he be recruited, since he won't surrender.  His dying words show that.  "I deserved more".  He really did, he deserved to know that I did indeed live up to what I told him, and did indeed go after his family when I was done.  Is this anything more than petty vengence?  Nope, it's all about vengence.  Regarding missing rescuing Riordan, I'm not sure you can, you only have one way in until you get his key.

You think it means I can't think for myself, I think it means seeing the big picture, and that it's not all about me.  Something that Alistair cannot see, or accept.  It's all about getting the killing blow on Loghain for him, period.  His motivations are transparent.  Loghain caused the death of Duncan, and forced Alistair to live up to his blood line, something he didn't want to do.  Isn't it odd then, that despite claiming he doesn't want the crown, to point of needing a Kleenex, until he finds out that Loghain is to do the Joining, and then he's all gungho about it, all for revenge.  Too bad for him that he doesn't understand what that sword is on his back.  I've said this before, but if he drew steel to contest me, I'd have more respect for him.  Instead, he results to the same tactics my grandkids do to get their way, throwing a temper tantrum in public, trying to embarrass me into doing what he wants.  Of course, with him, just as with my grandkids, I just laugh and point, so that the focus is all on him, and how he's acting.  Then he runs away from home, taking all my toys with him.  More power to him, I hope he has better luck with that bottle than he had at handling life's disappointments, because his was a fail of epic proportions.

[xgiovedi]

Sidreus wrote...

Hmm... something dawned on me now.

PC was a warden for a day before they are diminished to 2 members. Alistair was a warden for 6 months and how come Duncan, who he sees so much in Alistair didn't mention him about how to slay an Archdemon. Alistair is an idiot that's for sure but Duncan is a man with responsibility and I can't imagine passing that knowledge (so crucial with upcoming blight) skipped his notice.

From what I gathered, they didn't know it was a Blight. The Gray Wardens seemed to keep everything a secret until they had to know. After the ceremony, Duncan didn't tell you that after becoming a Warden, you would only have 30 years to live, either.

Plus Alistair says that Duncan kept him out of most of the fighting because he had royal blood in him. I can see why Duncan wouldn't tell him that.

[robertthebard]

maxernst wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nope. Not metagaming.
Logic dictates you could have used that archdemon blood to maky anyone a Grey Warden. The game doesn't give us that choice sadly.

Exactly.  Why use it on someone who has already betrayed one commander on a field of battle? 

Why use it on a City Elf that killed an Arl's son?
Why use it on a mage that aided the escape of a Blood Mage from the tower?
Why use it on a Dalish Elf just because they became tainted?
Why use it on a Dwarf Noble that killed his brother in an attempt to be heir?

Your logic falls flat.  Yes, you can play Dwarf Noble either way, so you might indeed be innocent, but even if you aren't, Duncan will recruit you, and insist that you don't have to answer the other GW's question about what happened.

Again, if we want to talk about needing recruits, at the time of the Origin stories, Duncan has at least 3x as many GW's as you do at the Landsmeet, and yet he's out recruiting.