218 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

robertthebard wrote...

You think it means I can't think for myself, I think it means seeing the big picture, and that it's not all about me. 

I think you can see the big picture, if you are interested in it, but that doesn´t mean you need an idiot like Riordan to decide what you do. On the contrary, if you see the big picture yourself, you have even less reason to listen to him.

And favoring Alistair can be justified via the big picture, too:

Alistair is nice and easy to manipulate, so I can be the true power behind the throne and make sure that Ferelden gets a good ruler after the Blight is defeated.
Loghain is your enemy and has both reason and the power to betray you, so it´s saver for you (and for Ferelden, as you know quite well that noone but YOU is the saviour) to finish him off.

[Tirigon]

robertthebard wrote...

Why use it on a City Elf that killed an Arl's son?
Why use it on a mage that aided the escape of a Blood Mage from the tower?
Why use it on a Dalish Elf just because they became tainted?
Why use it on a Dwarf Noble that killed his brother in an attempt to be heir?

Duncan thinks that Vaughan deserved death, that´s why he gives you his sword to save you / your betrothed.

Duncan needs a mage, and he sees nothing bad in bloodmagic.

Admittedly, I don´t know why he wants a dalish.... 1 point for you.

Dwarf noble doesn´t always try to kill his brother (I didn´t), and Duncan knows that politics is like that with dwarfs.

[Costin_Razvan]

Dridenkx wrote...

Behindyounow wrote...

I recruited Loghain as a punishment, not a reward.

some type of punishment after he destroyed your hometown, your kingdom, your friends, family, tried to kill several kings, divided the lands, hired people to kill you, and yet you think helping you slay a demon is punishment? I'd hate to think what you would do if you found out your wife cheated and the kids aren't yours. take her credit card away for a week? lol. Anyway you slice it, that's being weak, a pushover, and a sucker to allow someone to live after disrespecting you like that. good or evil he deserves no mercy.

Your comparing a certain death ( as he has if he joins the wardens, even if he survives the Final battle ) to taking away a credit card for one week? Are you a ****** of that proportion?

I love it how people like to throw death sentences around, like there is no tommorow. I for one don't believe in the death setence, and I certainly don't agree to killing a man in cold blood, regardless of what he has done. He should be allowed to live to understand the height of his crimes.

[robertthebard]

Tirigon wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

You think it means I can't think for myself, I think it means seeing the big picture, and that it's not all about me. 

I think you can see the big picture, if you are interested in it, but that doesn´t mean you need an idiot like Riordan to decide what you do. On the contrary, if you see the big picture yourself, you have even less reason to listen to him.

And favoring Alistair can be justified via the big picture, too:

Alistair is nice and easy to manipulate, so I can be the true power behind the throne and make sure that Ferelden gets a good ruler after the Blight is defeated.
Loghain is your enemy and has both reason and the power to betray you, so it´s saver for you (and for Ferelden, as you know quite well that noone but YOU is the saviour) to finish him off.

See the emphasis, which is mine, but your point?  You like him because you can manipulate him.  However, looking at the big picture means considering all the evidence presented.  As a City Elf, I have no reason to not recruit anyone that Riordan suggests, barring personal distaste.  So I could indeed kill or spare Loghain.  Howe is insignificant to my City Elf, Dalish Elf, and any dwarves or mages.  Why?  Because he's no different from any other human.  My HN has every reason to hate Howe, and yet, looking at the big picture, if Riordan suggests it, and uses the "compelling reasons" line, I have to look at what I know:  Duncan had 3x as many wardens at Ostagar as I have currently, and that's a conservative estimate.  While the only other GW you see in Ostagar is Alistair, you are told the rest of your kind are at the army camp with the soldiers.  Given this, Duncan still says your numbers are too few.  So why wouldn't I, with 2 GW's, believe that my numbers are insufficient?  You can choose to say that killing Loghain is looking at the big picture, but in reality, it's not.  Whether you kill him, or spare him is up to you, but killing him isn't looking at the big picture, it's looking at your need to be able to control Alistair.

[StarMars]

First of all, I didn't start this as an Alistair hater thread but seeing how people responded it's fine.

Keep in mind that this is JUST A GAME, where you can roleplay any way you want. Why cite real-life situations comparing them to the Lohhain-Alistair issue?

Instead of saying "I won't spare Loghain because.." why not say "My neutral/evil character won't spare Loghain because...". That way people would be reminded that you can choose to play differently in another run. Maybe there would be fewer arguments here. I already said that I was playing an all-good character and sparing Loghain was the "good" choice.

The game was built around making decisions in dialogues. If you're too stubborn to play differently from what you believe in real-life, then you're you're missing out on a big chunk of the game.

I'm pretty sure though that you want to see what that the different dialogue choices would lead to so you would pick a different option on your next run. Didn't you just eat your word when you said "I'd pick Alistair over Loghain."? It's not about real-life morality; it's how you role-play.

Think from within the game.

Cheya!

[Tirigon]

@Robert: There is a time after the blight. If I risk my life, plenty of soldiers and everything for Ferelden I want it to have a good ruler afterwards. And from my point of view I am the only good ruler, I wouldn´t trust anyone else to rule. To be honest, I would not even trust ME not to become corrupted by power, but if this happens, I will at least have fun. So it´s still better than if someone else rules.

[Costin_Razvan]

I trust Anora, Bhelen and Layna/Witherfang to become good rulers, if they screw it up they shall have my army of Golems at their doorstep!

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I trust Anora, Bhelen and Layna/Witherfang to become good rulers, if they screw it up they shall have my army of Golems at their doorstep!

In that case nothing prevents you from killing Alistair. I certainly won´t.

But personally, I dislike all of them (except for Whitherfang, but when does he rule?)

[Costin_Razvan]

She you mean. Witherfang rules the werewolves if you slaughter the Dalish!

[AnniLau]

You're all just big meanies! You don't understand Alistair like I do...we have a deep meaningful connection and you're just jealous! *sobs and runs out of the thread*

[Addai]

The decision whether to recruit Loghain or not can be looked at from both sides as a matter of doing what it takes to end the Blight. Alistair's emotion about the subject is no more or less valid than Anora's. Riordan is thinking about sheer numbers, but the Grey Wardens were depending on Loghain at Ostagar and look how that turned out. Your character can, if so inclined, decide not to take that risk again on a purely pragmatic and leadership level. Do you really want that man at your back while facing down the Archdemon?

[Zemore]

Costin_Razvan wrote...


Your comparing a certain death ( as he has if he joins the wardens, even if he survives the Final battle ) to taking away a credit card for one week? Are you a ****** of that proportion?

I love it how people like to throw death sentences around, like there is no tommorow. I for one don't believe in the death setence, and I certainly don't agree to killing a man in cold blood, regardless of what he has done. He should be allowed to live to understand the height of his crimes.

tell that to every bandit and Loghain soldier you killed
also the option wasent a certain death
if you kill him thats certain
the other option is a gamble a risk of a few months or years (the time scale in DA is a bit hard to gauge)but when your only other option is Certain death its obvious what anyone would choose.

Modifié par Zemore, 18 janvier 2010 - 05:16 .

[robertthebard]

Zemore wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...


Your comparing a certain death ( as he has if he joins the wardens, even if he survives the Final battle ) to taking away a credit card for one week? Are you a ****** of that proportion?

I love it how people like to throw death sentences around, like there is no tommorow. I for one don't believe in the death setence, and I certainly don't agree to killing a man in cold blood, regardless of what he has done. He should be allowed to live to understand the height of his crimes.

tell that to every bandit and Loghain soldier you killed
also the option wasent a certain death
if you kill him thats certain
the other option is a gamble a risk of a few months or years (the time scale in DA is a bit hard to gauge)but when your only other option is Certain death its obvious what anyone would choose.

I chose to spare him a couple of times.  My favorite of those times was the only time I did Morrigan's ritual, having Loghain do the deed.  He has to live knowing how what he did adversely affected Ferelden, and has to rebuild the GW's as pennance for it.  No death for redemption, he has to work for it.  In the meantime, Leliana and myself were in Orlais, shopping for shoes.  Take that Loghain *shakes fist*.  That's right, and we left him a note telling him that too.

[Tirigon]

For someone who looks at the "big picture" that is very egoistic, going to shop for shoes with your girl while Loghain terrorizes Ferelden.

[robertthebard]

Tirigon wrote...

For someone who looks at the "big picture" that is very egoistic, going to shop for shoes with your girl while Loghain terrorizes Ferelden.

Odd that you should say this, considering the ending didn't say anything of the sort.  We ended the Blight, that's what my concern was, and Loghain is paying for his crimes by rebuilding the order that he all but destroyed in Ferelden.  As you said, there is a time after the Blight, and big picture?  I'm off enjoying that fact.  For the first time since I became a Grey Warden, it's all about me.  I really think I earned it.

[Costin_Razvan]

My favorite is when I marry his daughter and choose to stay in Denerim to slack around while he works his ass to rebuild the wardens.



"I suspect you are not prepared to deal with my daughter."



"I think she is the one who is NOT prepared."

[Zemore]

[quote]robertthebard wrote...

other option is Certain death its obvious what anyone would choose.
[/quote]
I chose to spare him a couple of times.  My favorite of those times was the only time I did Morrigan's ritual, having Loghain do the deed.  He has to live knowing how what he did adversely affected Ferelden, and has to rebuild the GW's as pennance for it.  No death for redemption, he has to work for it.  In the meantime, Leliana and myself were in Orlais, shopping for shoes.  Take that Loghain *shakes fist*.  That's right, and we left him a note telling him that too.[/quote]
i always seen that allowing him to live as an act of compassion to right his wrongs and redeem himself in the eyes of the people.
and i always seen killing him (after the landsmeet sides with you) as a fitting punishment for his many crimes

but since its a game that gives you choices depending on what way your playing and the Role your giving yourself you can justify it anyway you really want

[Hezulkai]

robertthebard wrote...

The really sad part about party member apologies is that you get to apologize to Alistair for Alistair lying to you if you role play being shocked to learn who he is.  Then if you comment on him acting the ass about it, which he does, to the point where the writers added "Or you could just be an ass about it" to the dialog choices, he will break up with the female PC, and drop a -15 approval.  This for his lie.  I keep trying to tell people that the Landsmeet is insignificant, and that events like this one mean that I'm not going to get emotionally invested in him as a person.  It's easier for me to just ignore him in camp.  He can get as pissy as he wants there, I won't have to deal with it.

I can respect that.  It pretty much echoes my feelings about Leliana and Morrigan.  I got tired of backchat and approval losses for every single thing I did.  Playing a warden as somewhat pragmatic and neither noble, nor deliberately cruel, I find those two just way too high maintenance.  I'll happily take Alistair's few whiny moments over having to soothe, cajole, beg, grovel, coddle and reassure Leliana and Morrigan every 10 seconds.  However, I can understand that others may find the challenge of keeping them happy some part of a deeper game, or puzzle.  That's not wrong, just not something I enjoy, heh.  I romanced Leli once, and did the "you're crazy, I'm outta here" line.  It was totally worth it.  Also worth it is the "It's not you, it's me.  Alright, it is actually you." series.  Awesomes.

Anyway, as I said, to each his own.  I can understand some of the dislike for Alistair, just as I have my own dislike for Leliana and Morrigan.  I've quite gotten to like Ohgren and Sten as well.  Even some of my dislike of Wynne has been tempered recently.  However, even if I don't like a character, I appreciate that Bioware has given them flaws and fatal mistakes.  We may not agree with them, but it makes the story more engaging.