132 réponses à ce sujet

[Kommunicating]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Cutting it way too close to their target release window, if you ask me. If they are still thinking and planning a Fall 2013 window, showing the game for the first time mid-June is really risky.

IF it actually is going to be a Fall 2013 release. Obviously, I hope each and every day that this will be the case but the fact of the matter is, is that they might push it back for who knows how long. Whether that be for quality, setbacks, etc, etc. I'm not one of those people who are like "according to my scientific calculations, a 2013 release is highly unlikely cause of this and that and blah, blah, blah" but still, we have to take this into consideration.

Obviously all of us get frusturated with the teasing tweets the Bioware devs throw out there to torture us but I don't think it's dangerous for them to wait this long. They have the "show, don't tell" policy which I can respect and understand, just not endure. If anything, waiting till E3 is their strategy. Bioware is, from what they have said, very confident in the visual appeal of DA3. They really want to show us it, they are just waiting for the perfect time. This, to me, seems like the opposite of dangerous as if they show us things such as a cinematic trailer that has an enormous amount of content within it that we will all expect to see within the game and then cut a few things here and there for reasons only they know, most, if not all will be dissapointed if that thing cut is something that we really wanted to see in DA3.

The team is probably getting everything ready to show to us, to make sure everthing is perfect and what they are going to show us is what they want to show us. They are going to show a lot. I can already tell. The reason for that being, only dedicated Dragon Age fans are tracking the progress of DA3 and anxiously awaiting news. The people hoping for a reveal of the game aren't the "fans" who completely stopped supporting Bioware because of "how bad DA2 was", they obviously aren't people who haven't even heard of Dragon Age, or even the people who are just not interested in what DA:O and DA2 had to offer. Bioware is going to want to draw those people in, and they will with an immense amount of information regarding DA3. They are going to want to draw those old "fans" back, they are going to want to draw new fans in, they are going to want to draw in those pessimistic people. And all of them are going to want to see plenty of gameplay and specific features before investing their money into a game that they have no idea what it entails.

Even if the 2013 target release isn't met, it's not entirely a bad thing. It'd be so much worse if they gave us a cinematic trailer, screenshots, new infomation and then were like oh just kidding, we're actually going to be pushing back DA3 another year so just disregard everything we put out recently. I want to have all the information at once. The new info, details on the game, trailers, screenshots, release dates, everything. When a game platform is revealed, so are the games that are going to on that system, traditionally, whether that be sooner or later is entirely up to Bioware. The Microsoft event is going to be May 21st and with the new info stating that "On Tueday May 21st, will mark the beginning of a new ganeration of games, TV and entertainment. On that day, we'll be holding a special press event on the Xbox campus and we invite you to join us via the live global system stream that will be available on Xbox.com, Xbox LIVE and broadcast on Spike TV if you are in the US or Canada." They continued to say, "On that day, we'll share our vision for Xbox, and give you a real taste of the future. Then, 19-days later at the Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) in Los Angeles, we'll continue the conversation and showcase our full lineup of blockbuster games." Hmm.. pointing to the Xbox 720, in my opinion. And at E3, they might even show Dragon Age 3: Inquisition as one of they're "blockbuster games."

At any rate, Aplha/Beta stages of a game can take up to months to figure out and solve. We might see DA3 in Fall of 2013 and we might not. I hope for the best in the final stages of the game and hope we see the game very soon and if we can see anything that involves DA3 between now and E3, i'm all for it, whether it be risky or not.

Modifié par Kommunicating, 24 avril 2013 - 07:36 .

[Brockololly]

Enad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Cutting it way too close to their target release window, if you ask me. If they are still thinking and planning a Fall 2013 window, showing the game for the first time mid-June is really risky.

I don't understand your assesment of it being risky. 

Say it releases in November or December, that's 4-5 months of full on marketing. Certain, more popular series, have a much longer marketing time because it's how they get the hype up. 

Skyrim didn't start showing hard details until much closer to release as well. I don't think it's this huge death sentence as you seem to believe. 

Skyrim revealed in December 2010 with a little teaser trailer and release date. January 2011 they had the Game Informer article. February 2011 they had the awesome gameplay footage trailer. Then they went quiet for a while until probably a couple months before release when they had tons of trailers and articles/previews hitting various sites.

I think its very few games that can get away with such a limited time frame with their marketing- Call of Duty, Madden and those sorts definitely can. Dragon Age is not in that class. CoD and other annual or really, really well regarded franchises like Elder Scrolls can get away with more limited marketing based on their built in audience. I don't think Dragon Age has that.

I agree with Jimmy in that only allowing about 4-5 months of marketing from reveal to shipping is risky, even if they're having huge content blowouts and going really in depth with the game. Because at some point, its a matter of time. With new nextgen consoles coming out this fall, you're going to have every other big name publisher fighting for attention plus you'll likely have new nextgen first party IPs fighting for people's attention. At some point it likely just turns into fighting for people's time to pay attention to their games, regardless of their quality. If you have a more narrow window to market your game, its naturally going to be more difficult to grab someone's attention as opposed to giving yourself upwards of a year or so to try and catch someone's attention.


I just really have come to hate how big "AAA" video game marketing works. Its just annoying. I don't care for how they try to have these very carefully orchestrated roll outs and drip feed information from preview to preview. Its been such a breath of fresh air with what Obsidian is doing with Project Eternity, just updating things every 2 weeks with how they're coming on various aspects of the project. It just feels less stuffed with BS and just more straight from the developers giving frank updates on the project and how its coming along. It lets me have better expectations of what the game will end up being than what BioWare and most "AAA" developers/publishers do by revealing way early with a CG trailer or revealing much later when the game is pretty much done.

[Enad]

Maybe Bioware is trying to cut out the 'fluff' marketing you mention. Maybe they are working with EA to create a shorter, but more focused marketing campaign.

I mean, for a person who doesn't already know about the DA series(and there are many people who don't know of it), what's a CGI trailer 8-9 months before release going to do?

It could potentially be more effective to saturate a 4-5 month period with so much DA3 info so people don't forget about it. So it's always in their minds and they're eager to play it.

Modifié par Enad, 24 avril 2013 - 11:22 .

[legbamel]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Enad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Cutting it way too close to their target release window, if you ask me. If they are still thinking and planning a Fall 2013 window, showing the game for the first time mid-June is really risky.

I don't understand your assesment of it being risky. 

Say it releases in November or December, that's 4-5 of full on marketing. Certain, more popular series, have a much longer marketing time because it's how they get the hype up. 

Skyrim didn't start showing hard details until much closer to release as well. I don't think it's this huge death sentence as you seem to believe.

Skyrim was revealed well over a year before it was released. We're not talking about hard details, we're talking about a simple reveal. And considering ~40% of Dragon Age ]['s sales came from pre-orders, it is a huge deal to have such a small window before release. And if they release it in December then they miss out on a massive chunk of Black Friday sales.
And really, releasing it this Holiday season would be stupid. They'd have to compete with new consoles. And even if the game is being released on the new consoles just being a launch title means it would have limited sales.

Wait...if pre-orders can be placed on or before Black Friday and about 40% of DA2 sales came from pre-orders wouldn't that mean that they'd be just fine having the release date somewhere around the middle of December?  Hypothetically speaking, of course.

[cJohnOne]

I agree with the Black Friday release date or before then to increase sales but if they delay it 6 months that would be fine with me too.

[Brockololly]

Enad wrote...

Maybe Bioware is trying to cut out the 'fluff' marketing you mention. Maybe they are working with EA to create a shorter, but more focused marketing campaign.

I mean, for a person who doesn't already know about the DA series(and there are many people who don't know of it), what's a CGI trailer 8-9 months before release going to do?

It could potentially be more effective to saturate a 4-5 month period with so much DA3 info so people don't forget about it. So it's always in their minds and they're eager to play it.

I'm just thinking more in terms of having to compete with everything else on the market in the coming months. For instance, I recall seeing a bunch of TV ads for the new Assassin's Creed: Black Flag game last month. That seems kind of crazy to me since it was only announced, but regardless of the AC games' quality, they've been selling a ton.

There might be something to starting your marketing in earnest with a memorable trailer (like Skyrim) to get the word out and create a good first impression. Especially before the gaming landscape is just incredibly crowded around E3 when everyone is going to be trying to grasp your attention. And that is probably even more so than usual this year with 2 new consoles being unveiled.

I just loved the way Bethesda marketed Skyrim- they came out with a little teaser, followed it up with a Game Informer article to discuss the actual game, then revealed that awesome trailer of in game footage, then went quiet for a while. Going quiet for a while kind of made me want more information and got me more interested in the game, then they had a brief walkthrough at E3 and Quakecon in the summer, followed up by having a ton of previews and videos available for about 2 months prior to release.

I guess just brute forcing your way into people's heads can work, but it also might get really annoying. Or if they have just a deluge of previews and info coming out amidst all of the other new games coming out and new systems, it just might be hard to get much visibility. At some point, you're simply competing for people's time and especially this year, I think thats going to be hard to do. Right now its pretty quiet though, so if you wanted to make a strong impression on your more hardcore fanbase while you have their attention, now before E3 would be a good time.

Modifié par Brockololly, 25 avril 2013 - 12:41 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Enad wrote...

Maybe Bioware is trying to cut out the 'fluff' marketing you mention. Maybe they are working with EA to create a shorter, but more focused marketing campaign.

I mean, for a person who doesn't already know about the DA series(and there are many people who don't know of it), what's a CGI trailer 8-9 months before release going to do?

It could potentially be more effective to saturate a 4-5 month period with so much DA3 info so people don't forget about it. So it's always in their minds and they're eager to play it.

I don't disagree at all with their "show, don't tell" policy. If there wasn't another CG trailer again in all of video game marketing, I'd be happy.

It is a simple matter of time - Bioware doesn't have a lot of it. And after the Microsoft and E3 events, there is going to be a LOT of talk about the new consoles and the big games that are going to be revealed with them. DA3 will not be a big part of any of those discussions. 

How many people are going to keep their ear to the ground on a game that had a tepidly received sequel (DA2) and an extremely loud and negative reception of a sister product (ME3) when, instead, they could focus on big titles from franchises they know a lot about? I don't know the answer to that question, but my guess is that Bioware would be served better to get in front of the marketing tidal wave before E3, not after it.

Let me put it this way - if you go into a party that is packed with people and you see a dozen people you know all talking at once, will you go to the ones that you did not enjoy talking to the last couple times you met, or the ones you know the best and enjoy consistently? Obvious answer. Now, what if you had run into one of those people you had a lower opinion of before the party and found out they had really changed and had lots of interesting thigns going on? Well, then you might be more likely to fight through the crowd to go up and see what they are up to for the party.

As people who are all actually registered on the BSN, we often fail to understand that Bioware is after a market of people who may have never even played a Bioware game before and only have heard buzz about them from other sources. In the past two or three years, that buzz has been, undeniably, more negative than it has ever been in the history of Bioware as a company. 

For Bioware to have gotten the conversation started about their game during prime opportunities when people were not talking about much of anything else, like earlier this year, perhaps at PAX East, then they could have made an impression with people. Now, with E3 on the horizon, the frenzy is going to start and people are going to be talking about two dozen or so things non-stop until the end of the year - most of them revolving around the new consoles and the big-name games coming out for them. 

That is what I am concerned about. That BIoware is going to be waiting too long for people who haven't even given them a second thought since this time last year (post-ME3) to make the case for DA3 while they still have an audience of people with the attention span. Because most people won't even know to be looking for DA3 news.

[ElitePinecone]

Isn't it slightly presumptuous to assume Bioware's marketing team are naively waltzing into a risky disaster, when we have no idea of their internal plans or any of the other confidential information that EA gathers or researches?

I mean, concern that qualified professional people can't do their jobs properly is more than a little condescending. They are, after all, actually employed and paid money for their judgements. Do they need people on a forum to let them know the assumed release timeline is apparently risky, when we don't know a thing about the game or how it will be marketed?

[Demx]

I suspect a CGI trailer, and then an announcement saying something about us to look forward to more announcements that will have actual in game footage.

[Enad]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Isn't it slightly presumptuous to assume Bioware's marketing team are naively waltzing into a risky disaster, when we have no idea of their internal plans or any of the other confidential information that EA gathers or researches?

I mean, concern that qualified professional people can't do their jobs properly is more than a little condescending. They are, after all, actually employed and paid money for their judgements. Do they need people on a forum to let them know the assumed release timeline is apparently risky, when we don't know a thing about the game or how it will be marketed?

I have to agree with this. 

I still think PAX would of been a perfect time to show of DA3, I don't think DA3s/EAs marketing team is struggling to find the right time to do it. I'm sure they already have it worked out and THEY think it's a good time to reveal. All we can do is wait.

[Fast Jimmy]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Isn't it slightly presumptuous to assume Bioware's marketing team are naively waltzing into a risky disaster, when we have no idea of their internal plans or any of the other confidential information that EA gathers or researches?

I mean, concern that qualified professional people can't do their jobs properly is more than a little condescending. They are, after all, actually employed and paid money for their judgements. Do they need people on a forum to let them know the assumed release timeline is apparently risky, when we don't know a thing about the game or how it will be marketed?

Saying things are risky and saying it is going to be a full on disaster is not the same thing. I am not saying "because Bioware isn't doing things the way I would, the game is going to fail." There is a risk we could be hit by a giant meteor tomorrow that wipes out all life - that doesn't mean anyone is saying it is guaranteed. If you are actually reading that into my statements, then there might possibly be some of your own fears and insecurities being projected into your interpretation.

And, for the record, EA's marketing professionals couldn't sell water to a dying man in the desert. Pick and choose the blunder of your choice - hiring fake protesters for Dante's inferno, the "video game your mom will hate" train wreck for Dead Space 2 or the all-too-familiar "Press a button and something Awesome happens" that is still the butt of jokes nearly three years later. If anyone can look at EA and thinks that they have a firm grasp on how gamers think, specifically how they think in regards to what would make them want to buy a game, then I am baffled by that viewpoint.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 25 avril 2013 - 03:05 .

[BioFan (Official)]

4 trailers all dragon age related? HAPPY DAY FOR MEEEEEEE

[ElitePinecone]

Ericander77 wrote...

4 trailers all dragon age related? HAPPY DAY FOR MEEEEEEE

... that's not what he was saying. One of them, at least, is for Command & Conquer, and it coul be four different trailers fr four different games.

[Allan Schumacher]

Jimmy saying that it's risky is (by my estimate) his hypothesis. I don't feel his comments are condescending or anything.

[Bekkael]

EntropicAngel wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...


 plus a big long post by Chris Priestly about what to expect.

Hmm. Memories...unpleasant ones...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/8481789/48

But surely they are not all unpleasant?



I'm really excited. Maybe after the next xbox reveal is done we will get lots of juicy DA3 stuff. *fingers crossed*

[ElitePinecone]

EntropicAngel wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...


 plus a big long post by Chris Priestly about what to expect.

Hmm. Memories...unpleasant ones...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/8481789/48

Looking back now though, are you still as against MP on principle? 

I think, all things considered, it worked out well (in the sense that there was an unexpectedly huge community of people that formed around the multiplayer portion, which was high-quality and fun) - and the reveal and marketing did a good job of showing off the gameplay without being hyperbolic. I think many people were even pleasantly surprised at how much better the MP turned out than what they were expecting, or what they feared.

DA is probably a bit different, because perhaps more of its fanbase are harcore, oldschool singleplayer RPG gamers - but I really can't see a major problem if any hypothetical announcement is handled like ME3's was. The emphasis seemed to be on showing off the best and most interesting features, having clear and precise information available immediately to neuter speculation, and a lot of communication.

The singleplayer/multiplayer integration and the obnoxious Galaxy of War system were other issues entirely, but that's probably more to do with the overall design phiosophy. 

[Fredward]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Jimmy saying that it's risky is (by my estimate) his hypothesis. I don't feel his comments are condescending or anything.

Yeah I agree. Pretentious fits better.


I figure when devs don't smother hope in its infancy there's always a better chance of it actually happening.

[Direwolf0294]

I'd actually prefer it if there's as little time as possible between a trailer/announcement of a game and the actual release. It gets a bit annoying when a game's announced and then you have to wait a year or more for it to come out. Take Cyberpunk 2077 for example. An awesome trailer released that builds major hype and gets you excited for the game, but the game itself is still two years off at the least. It just seems cruel to tease us that early.

[Allan Schumacher]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Jimmy saying that it's risky is (by my estimate) his hypothesis. I don't feel his comments are condescending or anything.

Yeah I agree. Pretentious fits better.

I figure when devs don't smother hope in its infancy there's always a better chance of it actually happening.

Dismissing it as being merely pretentious, however, is a rather adversarial position to take.  He has his thoughts, motivated by whatever rationale and logic he sees fit.

I'll agree that many people likely overstate their own logical assessments (myself included), but I'd rather the forum be open to people sharing their thoughts, as long as it's done in a respectful manner.  If you feel his thoughts are pretentious, you're always equipped with the ability to not bother reading his posts.

I am reminded somewhat by reading some bizarre topics on twitter, where one person found another person's twitter remarks aggravating.  For myself, I saw it more as "instead of getting into a fight about it, why don't you just stop following said person on twitter?"


There's a lot of things from a lot of posters on this board where I can recognize that they are filling in some of the gaps of things that they don't even recognize is there, when a lot of qualitative judgments are made. If we were to require posters to know all about the aspects of what they were discussing, it'd be a pretty blank board however.

As long as one is respectful, and open to the idea that there may be gaps in their assessment, however, I don't really think it's pretentiousness.

If I was more of a marketing guru (I'm definitely not), I'd be more able to talk with people about some of the pros and cons of various marketing decisions.  And to be clear, I'm not saying whether or not our decisions for not saying much at this time are or are not entirely based on marketing and so forth.

[XX-Pyro]

Brockololly wrote...

Enad wrote...

Maybe Bioware is trying to cut out the 'fluff' marketing you mention. Maybe they are working with EA to create a shorter, but more focused marketing campaign.

I mean, for a person who doesn't already know about the DA series(and there are many people who don't know of it), what's a CGI trailer 8-9 months before release going to do?

It could potentially be more effective to saturate a 4-5 month period with so much DA3 info so people don't forget about it. So it's always in their minds and they're eager to play it.

I'm just thinking more in terms of having to compete with everything else on the market in the coming months. For instance, I recall seeing a bunch of TV ads for the new Assassin's Creed: Black Flag game last month. That seems kind of crazy to me since it was only announced, but regardless of the AC games' quality, they've been selling a ton.

There might be something to starting your marketing in earnest with a memorable trailer (like Skyrim) to get the word out and create a good first impression. Especially before the gaming landscape is just incredibly crowded around E3 when everyone is going to be trying to grasp your attention. And that is probably even more so than usual this year with 2 new consoles being unveiled.

I just loved the way Bethesda marketed Skyrim- they came out with a little teaser, followed it up with a Game Informer article to discuss the actual game, then revealed that awesome trailer of in game footage, then went quiet for a while. Going quiet for a while kind of made me want more information and got me more interested in the game, then they had a brief walkthrough at E3 and Quakecon in the summer, followed up by having a ton of previews and videos available for about 2 months prior to release.

I guess just brute forcing your way into people's heads can work, but it also might get really annoying. Or if they have just a deluge of previews and info coming out amidst all of the other new games coming out and new systems, it just might be hard to get much visibility. At some point, you're simply competing for people's time and especially this year, I think thats going to be hard to do. Right now its pretty quiet though, so if you wanted to make a strong impression on your more hardcore fanbase while you have their attention, now before E3 would be a good time.

AC sells because the games have been quality every single time, and people know that. Since the first they have been unique and original games and Ubisoft likes to show off the new parts of their games a lot more than other devs seem to, hence the longer length of marketing. 

[Fredward]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Dismissing it as being merely pretentious, however, is a rather adversarial position to take.  He has his thoughts, motivated by whatever rationale and logic he sees fit.

I'll agree that many people likely overstate their own logical assessments (myself included), but I'd rather the forum be open to people sharing their thoughts, as long as it's done in a respectful manner.  If you feel his thoughts are pretentious, you're always equipped with the ability to not bother reading his posts.

I am reminded somewhat by reading some bizarre topics on twitter, where one person found another person's twitter remarks aggravating.  For myself, I saw it more as "instead of getting into a fight about it, why don't you just stop following said person on twitter?"


There's a lot of things from a lot of posters on this board where I can recognize that they are filling in some of the gaps of things that they don't even recognize is there, when a lot of qualitative judgments are made. If we were to require posters to know all about the aspects of what they were discussing, it'd be a pretty blank board however.

As long as one is respectful, and open to the idea that there may be gaps in their assessment, however, I don't really think it's pretentiousness.

If I was more of a marketing guru (I'm definitely not), I'd be more able to talk with people about some of the pros and cons of various marketing decisions.  And to be clear, I'm not saying whether or not our decisions for not saying much at this time are or are not entirely based on marketing and so forth.

I'm not dismissing Jimmy's opinions though. He has good ideas. It's just his delivery that irks me. Which is also why I (usually) read his posts. As for just not reading his posts... It's kinda contradictory wanting a board where people can discuss stuff openly (albeit respectfully) but wanting me to just ignore some potentially insightful posts just cuz I might not like the individual.

Also the ignore function doesn't work.