883 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Seival wrote...

Any specific example? Ok. Harbinger's description for example. Codex states that Harbinger is leading the attack on Earth, but after the ending we all know that Reapers are just mindless tools. Codex says nothing about the fact that Harbinger was made of Leviathans, and is the very first Reaper ever existed.

BioWare could add Harbinger to the codex later, when we all knew all details about it. Or they could update codex dynamically (like war assets). But the codex was just left outdated. So the codex is not very good source of information. That's why game events always take priority.

Personally, I never thought of codex as of something valuable in any BioWare game. Completely unneeded feature that shouldn't be used in subsequent games.

Wait, what?  So "the codex contradicts my headcanon that the Reapers are mindless tools, so it shouldn't be used"?  You know, I could buy that, if I hadn't talked to Sovereign in ME 1, Harbinger in ME 2, and the Rannoch Reaper.  Of course, those are events in game, not reliant upon the Codex, so they must be hallucinations right?  Sovereign never attacked the Citadel, so of course the Council is correct to dismiss the Reapers as a myth, right?  I guess Saren and Benezia were just deluded to the extreme?

The problem with your "mindless tools" is that Sovereign has a very clear purpose:  To open the relay to start the cycle.  The problem is, it doesn't know what the Protheans did to the Citadel, or even that they did anything, so it has to use Saren to find out what's wrong, and how to fix it.  This happened.  It's in game, it's not just reliant on the Codex.  Is Harbinger leading the assault on Earth?  Apparently so, since Harbinger is the one that nukes you on the way to the beam.  Oh crap, something in game that supports the Codex entry, I guess the Codex entry is wrong...

[Morlath]

Seival wrote...

Any specific example? Ok. Harbinger's description for example. Codex states that Harbinger is leading the attack on Earth, but after the ending we all know that Reapers are just mindless tools. Codex says nothing about the fact that Harbinger was made of Leviathans, and is the very first Reaper ever existed.

Reapers are independent creatures controlled by a master subconscious program.

The Quarians created the Geth and eventually the Geth began to ask questions - Does this unit have a soul? - that hinted at the birth of independent thought even though they are powered by the consensus. Same principle if look at the way Reapers are both individualistic (Harbinger, Sovereign) and also tied into a singular set of actions (Reaping). The only real difference is that the Reapers never hit at their consensus (Catalyst).

[Seival]

robertthebard wrote...

You know, I keep seeing Leviathan thrown around as a reason to not pick Destroy, but, in Synthesis, won't things just go back to the way they were before the Reapers? Leviathan created the Intelligence to solve a problem, and if Synthesis does indeed solve the problem, doesn't that mean that Leviathans are now back in business, only now, you know, since understanding, everyone will be their willing slaves? This was the state of the galaxy before the cycles started, slaves to Leviathan, until their perceived pattern. So now that their perceived pattern is ended, they're free to return to business as usual, with an even greater army of enforcers than they've ever had.

Before somebody chimes in with "but slides...", none of the slide shows show Leviathans being a threat, yet it is assumed they will be in Destroy, but no where else? Congratulations, you have given the Leviathans exactly what they wanted, slave races that won't even think about rebelling.

I told that several times already. You can't win in the end. The ultimate winners are Leviathans, and it doesn't matter which ending did you choose. Leviathans are not "the reason not to pick Destroy". Leviathans are the reason why Destroy is not too dire.

Of course lesser races will become Leviathans' thralls eventually. Synthesis, Control, Destroy, Refusal... nothing can change that. You already said that yourself: "slave races that won't even think about rebelling". That is 100% correct. No one will even know that Leviathans exist. Everyone will believe they forge their destiny themselves. Leviathans are too high above lesser races' concerns, as Leviathan stated in the DLC.

So, why are you talking about all of this as about something "bad"? Everyone got what they wanted eventually. Well, maybe Krogan didn't, if you preferred not to cure the Genophage.

[Morlath]

Seival wrote...
I told that several times already. You can't win in the end. The ultimate winners are Leviathans, and it doesn't matter which ending did you choose. Leviathans are not "the reason not to pick Destroy". Leviathans are the reason why Destroy is not too dire.

Control is the only ending which has some type of "guarantee" protection against the Leviathans since you have the Reapers as war assets against them if they decide to take over the galaxy again.

[robertthebard]

Seival wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

You know, I keep seeing Leviathan thrown around as a reason to not pick Destroy, but, in Synthesis, won't things just go back to the way they were before the Reapers? Leviathan created the Intelligence to solve a problem, and if Synthesis does indeed solve the problem, doesn't that mean that Leviathans are now back in business, only now, you know, since understanding, everyone will be their willing slaves? This was the state of the galaxy before the cycles started, slaves to Leviathan, until their perceived pattern. So now that their perceived pattern is ended, they're free to return to business as usual, with an even greater army of enforcers than they've ever had.

Before somebody chimes in with "but slides...", none of the slide shows show Leviathans being a threat, yet it is assumed they will be in Destroy, but no where else? Congratulations, you have given the Leviathans exactly what they wanted, slave races that won't even think about rebelling.

I told that several times already. You can't win in the end. The ultimate winners are Leviathans, and it doesn't matter which ending did you choose. Leviathans are not "the reason not to pick Destroy". Leviathans are the reason why Destroy is not too dire.

Of course lesser races will become Leviathans' thralls eventually. Synthesis, Control, Destroy, Refusal... nothing can change that. You already said that yourself: "slave races that won't even think about rebelling". That is 100% correct. No one will even know that Leviathans exist. Everyone will believe they forge their destiny themselves. Leviathans are too high above lesser races' concerns, as Leviathan stated in the DLC.

So, why are you talking about all of this as about something "bad"? Everyone got what they wanted eventually. Well, maybe Krogan didn't, if you preferred not to cure the Genophage.

With all of your self professed intelligence, you can't recognize simple irony?

[Seival]

Morlath wrote...

Seival wrote...

Any specific example? Ok. Harbinger's description for example. Codex states that Harbinger is leading the attack on Earth, but after the ending we all know that Reapers are just mindless tools. Codex says nothing about the fact that Harbinger was made of Leviathans, and is the very first Reaper ever existed.

Reapers are independent creatures controlled by a master subconscious program.

The Quarians created the Geth and eventually the Geth began to ask questions - Does this unit have a soul? - that hinted at the birth of independent thought even though they are powered by the consensus. Same principle if look at the way Reapers are both individualistic (Harbinger, Sovereign) and also tied into a singular set of actions (Reaping). The only real difference is that the Reapers never hit at their consensus (Catalyst).

And that is what called real headcanon. We both know that your assumption becomes incorrect after the ending. The Catalyst states itself that it is collective mind of all Reapers, which means the Reapers themselves are just mindless mobile platforms, just like husks.

Harbinger and Nazara can talk? So what? Considering the last conversation in the game, it was the Catalyst who talked through them. It just didn't want to introduce itself, for obvious reasons.

You are just ignoring game facts.

[robertthebard]

Seival wrote...

Morlath wrote...

Seival wrote...

Any specific example? Ok. Harbinger's description for example. Codex states that Harbinger is leading the attack on Earth, but after the ending we all know that Reapers are just mindless tools. Codex says nothing about the fact that Harbinger was made of Leviathans, and is the very first Reaper ever existed.

Reapers are independent creatures controlled by a master subconscious program.

The Quarians created the Geth and eventually the Geth began to ask questions - Does this unit have a soul? - that hinted at the birth of independent thought even though they are powered by the consensus. Same principle if look at the way Reapers are both individualistic (Harbinger, Sovereign) and also tied into a singular set of actions (Reaping). The only real difference is that the Reapers never hit at their consensus (Catalyst).

And that is what called real headcanon. We both know that your assumption becomes incorrect after the ending. The Catalyst states itself that it is collective mind of all Reapers, which means the Reapers themselves are just mindless mobile platforms, just like husks.

Harbinger and Nazara can talk? So what? Considering the last conversation in the game, it was the Catalyst who talked through them. It just didn't want to introduce itself, for obvious reasons.

You are just ignoring game facts.

Really?  What part of collective minds means they are mindless?  Don't they have to have minds before they can be collective?  So which is it?  Your headcanon, or what we're shown in game?

[KaiserShep]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Destroy slides = Leviathan is not a threat? Haven't these things been alive for millions if not billions of years?

In isolation, and in presumably small numbers, so this assumes two things:

1. The Leviathan are actually interested in taking over the galaxy, and,

2. They're in any position to do so.

While 1 is a distinct possibility, becoming galactic enemy #1 may not actually do them much good anyway. Sure, they can take down a reaper and knock ships out of the sky, but there's no real indication of how far their power extends. Given the progression of technological advancement since they were last in charge, doing anything to antagonize the entire galactic community could possibly end in their extermination. 

[Morlath]

Seival wrote...

And that is what called real headcanon. We both know that your assumption becomes incorrect after the ending. The Catalyst states itself that it is collective mind of all Reapers, which means the Reapers themselves are just mindless mobile platforms, just like husks.

Harbinger and Nazara can talk? So what? Considering the last conversation in the game, it was the Catalyst who talked through them. It just didn't want to introduce itself, for obvious reasons.

You are just ignoring game facts.

The Reapers aren't mindless and each one has its own unique way of speaking. The very fact that they have names and talk about themselves as I (personal) and We (collective) proves this.

[KaiserShep]

Even the destroyers are individuals, as indicated by the one Shepard speaks to briefly on Rannoch before it dies.

[Seival]

Morlath wrote...

Seival wrote...
I told that several times already. You can't win in the end. The ultimate winners are Leviathans, and it doesn't matter which ending did you choose. Leviathans are not "the reason not to pick Destroy". Leviathans are the reason why Destroy is not too dire.

Control is the only ending which has some type of "guarantee" protection against the Leviathans since you have the Reapers as war assets against them if they decide to take over the galaxy again.

Only if the Shepard-Catalyst will decide to keep Leviathans out. But what makes you think it will decide that? Leviathans are living beings just like everyone else, and the new Catalyst states that it will protect and sustain. Leviathans are included, and their natural role is to co-exist with lesser races in their specific way, remaining above the lesser races concerns, and using them as thralls while lesser races can't even notice that.

Or maybe you believe that Shepard-Catalyst will start to defend prey from the predator? I can imagine: husks defending mouses from the cats

Leviathans and lesser races co-existence is quite good, because none has to be slain to become a food, actually. Does a writer care that his entire race are thralls, if his books make him rich, and he has everything he wanted? I don't think so.

[Morlath]

Seival wrote...

Morlath wrote...

Seival wrote...
I told that several times already. You can't win in the end. The ultimate winners are Leviathans, and it doesn't matter which ending did you choose. Leviathans are not "the reason not to pick Destroy". Leviathans are the reason why Destroy is not too dire.

Control is the only ending which has some type of "guarantee" protection against the Leviathans since you have the Reapers as war assets against them if they decide to take over the galaxy again.

Only if the Shepard-Catalyst will decide to keep Leviathans out. But what makes you think it will decide that? Leviathans are living beings just like everyone else, and the new Catalyst states that it will protect and sustain. Leviathans are included, and their natural role is to co-exist with lesser races in their specific way, remaining above the lesser races concerns, and using them as thralls while lesser races can't even notice that.

Or maybe you believe that Shepard-Catalyst will start to defend prey from the predator? I can imagine: husks defending mouses from the cats

Leviathans and lesser races co-existence is quite good, because none has to be slain to become a food, actually. Does a writer care that his entire race are thralls, if his books make him rich, and he has everything he wanted? I don't think so.

I'm sorry...I'm going to reply to what I think you're trying to say rather than what you've actually typed. It's saner that way.

The Leviathans have no interest in the lesser species apart from using them as thralls. Their arrogance brought about the entire mess in the first place and they still thought they were right! It's entirely possible that the Leviathans may try to take advantage of the war aftermath to come along as "regain their place" in the galaxy.

The Leviathans' natural state is to live. They then choose to take over other races in the same vein that the Thorian did, because they don't see any other life as worthy of anything more. Under the Control ending there would be enough Reapers to stop this from happening since there's no point in saving the galaxy from one threat (extinction) only to allow it to fall to another (mass slavery).

[Seival]

Morlath wrote...

Seival wrote...

And that is what called real headcanon. We both know that your assumption becomes incorrect after the ending. The Catalyst states itself that it is collective mind of all Reapers, which means the Reapers themselves are just mindless mobile platforms, just like husks.

Harbinger and Nazara can talk? So what? Considering the last conversation in the game, it was the Catalyst who talked through them. It just didn't want to introduce itself, for obvious reasons.

You are just ignoring game facts.

The Reapers aren't mindless and each one has its own unique way of speaking. The very fact that they have names and talk about themselves as I (personal) and We (collective) proves this.

Collective mind can only speak as "one creature with many different voices", that's why it's collective mind and not number of separate minds. Catalyst just played with lesser races, speaking through different mobile platforms. All those speeches were nothing more but psychological attacks to reduce lesser beings morale and will to resist.

[Morlath]

Seival wrote...


Collective mind can only speak as "one creature with many different voices", that's why it's collective mind and not number of separate minds. Catalyst just played with lesser races, speaking through different mobile platforms. All those speeches were nothing more but psychological attacks to reduce lesser beings morale and will to resist.

Because Indoctrination, husks, insanely powerful sheilds and a weapon that can destroy anything isn't how the Reapers win the cycles, it's through mass mis-direction on their personalities?

Just like the Borg have one voice but many mouths. Except the Reapers don't speak with the same "voice" even if they all have the same message.

[Seival]

Morlath wrote...

Seival wrote...

Morlath wrote...

Seival wrote...
I told that several times already. You can't win in the end. The ultimate winners are Leviathans, and it doesn't matter which ending did you choose. Leviathans are not "the reason not to pick Destroy". Leviathans are the reason why Destroy is not too dire.

Control is the only ending which has some type of "guarantee" protection against the Leviathans since you have the Reapers as war assets against them if they decide to take over the galaxy again.

Only if the Shepard-Catalyst will decide to keep Leviathans out. But what makes you think it will decide that? Leviathans are living beings just like everyone else, and the new Catalyst states that it will protect and sustain. Leviathans are included, and their natural role is to co-exist with lesser races in their specific way, remaining above the lesser races concerns, and using them as thralls while lesser races can't even notice that.

Or maybe you believe that Shepard-Catalyst will start to defend prey from the predator? I can imagine: husks defending mouses from the cats

Leviathans and lesser races co-existence is quite good, because none has to be slain to become a food, actually. Does a writer care that his entire race are thralls, if his books make him rich, and he has everything he wanted? I don't think so.

I'm sorry...I'm going to reply to what I think you're trying to say rather than what you've actually typed. It's saner that way.

The Leviathans have no interest in the lesser species apart from using them as thralls. Their arrogance brought about the entire mess in the first place and they still thought they were right! It's entirely possible that the Leviathans may try to take advantage of the war aftermath to come along as "regain their place" in the galaxy.

The Leviathans' natural state is to live. They then choose to take over other races in the same vein that the Thorian did, because they don't see any other life as worthy of anything more. Under the Control ending there would be enough Reapers to stop this from happening since there's no point in saving the galaxy from one threat (extinction) only to allow it to fall to another (mass slavery).

I'm afraid that you understood nothing in Leviathan DLC.

If Leviathans controlled each lesser race in Thorian manner, then organic-vs-synthetic problem wouldn't exist. Leviathans would just not allow lesser beings to create machines. But lesser races built machines that eventually destroyed them, remember? This means that thrall races have much more freedoms than you think. Only few people have to be controlled directly in such system (most politicians, and some particular groups for example). Society serves Leviathans without even knowing about that. Quite nice way of co-existence, don't you think so? You think that you are "free", while you are actually not, and no one cares about that, because life is good. Everyone happy.

[PsyrenY]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Can you prove that they are a threat in destroy?

They can't control synthetics. We have no synthetics left on our side.

Really, it's not that hard. Even Shotgun Julia's sH0tgUn jUliA's brain should be able to grasp the implications.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 01 mai 2013 - 04:11 .

[Steelcan]

Optimystic_X wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Can you prove that they are a threat in destroy?

They can't control synthetics. We have no synthetics left on our side.

Really, it's not that hard. Even Shotgun Julia's sH0tgUn jUliA's brain should be able to grasp the implications.

. Look people, it's Auld Wolf 2.0!<_<

[adayaday]

Optimystic_X wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Can you prove that they are a threat in destroy?

They can't control synthetics. We have no synthetics left on our side.

Really, it's not that hard. Even Shotgun Julia's sH0tgUn jUliA's brain should be able to grasp the implications.

So speculations?good to know.

[Fawx9]

Optimystic_X wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Can you prove that they are a threat in destroy?

They can't control synthetics. We have no synthetics left on our side.

Really, it's not that hard. Even Shotgun Julia's sH0tgUn jUliA's brain should be able to grasp the implications.

It's not like we could just rebiuild the Geth or anything simple like that.

Doubt we even need to, their backups would work fine, as they don't have blueboxes.  

[Seival]

Morlath wrote...

Seival wrote...


Collective mind can only speak as "one creature with many different voices", that's why it's collective mind and not number of separate minds. Catalyst just played with lesser races, speaking through different mobile platforms. All those speeches were nothing more but psychological attacks to reduce lesser beings morale and will to resist.

Because Indoctrination, husks, insanely powerful sheilds and a weapon that can destroy anything isn't how the Reapers win the cycles, it's through mass mis-direction on their personalities?

Just like the Borg have one voice but many mouths. Except the Reapers don't speak with the same "voice" even if they all have the same message.

Like I said, The Catalyst had no reasons to introduce itself before the ending. And threatening the victim is quite common practice to reduce victim's morale. You don't have to tell all the truth or anything logical while threatening someone. The point of threatening is to scare your victim. Force it to panic, or at least make mistakes.

[Argolas]

Steelcan wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Can you prove that they are a threat in destroy?

They can't control synthetics. We have no synthetics left on our side.

Really, it's not that hard. Even Shotgun Julia's sH0tgUn jUliA's brain should be able to grasp the implications.

. Look people, it's Auld Wolf 2.0!<_<

Adorable, huh?

[KaiserShep]

Optimystic_X wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Can you prove that they are a threat in destroy?

They can't control synthetics. We have no synthetics left on our side.

Really, it's not that hard. Even Shotgun Julia's sH0tgUn jUliA's brain should be able to grasp the implications.

That's not really proof of anything. Lets just all agree that all of this is speculation. It's no different from the arguments people make in support of betraying Wrex and sabotaging the genophage. Some assume what will happen outside of the story and choose accordingly. I myself see no such threat in the leviathan. If anything, the leviathan seem tactically inferior compared to the fleets united. The ability to indoctrinate didnt save the reapers from destruction. What chance do they have?

[Morlath]

Seival wrote...

I'm afraid that you understood nothing in Leviathan DLC.

If Leviathans controlled each lesser race in Thorian manner, then organic-vs-synthetic problem wouldn't exist. Leviathans would just not allow lesser beings to create machines. But lesser races built machines that eventually destroyed them, remember? This means that thrall races have much more freedoms than you think. Only few people have to be controlled directly in such system (most politicians, and some particular groups for example). Society serves Leviathans without even knowing about that. Quite nice way of co-existence, don't you think so? You think that you are "free", while you are actually not, and no one cares about that, because life is good. Everyone happy.

No, because the Thorian allows its Thralls a "quasi-normal life". The Leviathans talk about their Thralls in similar manner, allowed to do whatever they wanted as long as it didn't do anything to hurt the Leviathans. Essentially Mind controlling dictators. The arrogance of the Leviathans implies that they simply didn't care what the species they controlled did in their spare time when they weren't being used.

And saying that being a slave is okay as long as you're a happy slave is insanity.

[Morlath]

Seival wrote...

Like I said, The Catalyst had no reasons to introduce itself before the ending. And threatening the victim is quite common practice to reduce victim's morale. You don't have to tell all the truth or anything logical while threatening someone. The point of threatening is to scare your victim. Force it to panic, or at least make mistakes.

I noticed you're ignoring the differences between a borg consciousness and the Reapers.

Your point is only valid if the attacking side was worried about their victims which the Reapers clearly aren't. They have the same arrogance as the Leviathans in that they don't care enough about the species they're reaping to do this. Indoctrination is far more a viable, usable and deadly weapon than pretending they are independent creatures rather than a single group mind for "psychology warfare".

[Ecrulis]

Argolas wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Can you prove that they are a threat in destroy?

They can't control synthetics. We have no synthetics left on our side.

Really, it's not that hard. Even Shotgun Julia's sH0tgUn jUliA's brain should be able to grasp the implications.

. Look people, it's Auld Wolf 2.0!<_<

Adorable, huh?

Oh god...they're mulultiplying! Run! Run for your lives!