883 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

A meal fit for a prothean.

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

Leviathans had no problems controlling lesser races before the Cycles began, and during the Cycles (which had to be much more difficult than before the Cycles). This means Leviathans are much harder to oppose than the Reapers themselves (who cannot defeat the Leviathans completely no matter how hard they tried).

I highly doubt the Leviathans are much harder to oppose than the Reapers. They were defeated by the Reapers, after all, and there are only a handful of them. It took the combined might of the entire galaxy to even have a chance of using the Crucible.

Lesser races have no tools to oppose Leviathans, moreover lesser races will never even want to do that.

The 'lesser races' already have shields to prevent indoctrination. 

And they have guns, which I think will work just fine against a Leviathan. 

Finally, after the Reaper threat was stopped, Leviathans started to recover to their full strength, and they will recover much faster than anyone else (considering technology and abilities they possess).

That's just conjecture. 

In short - Leviathans survived the Reapers. This is actually the only prove we need to state that Leviathans are unstoppable. Especially after they will recover. No one wants to be their enemies. Co-existence is the only way to go. Even the Catalyst understood this.

Wait, the only proof needed to show the Leviathans are unstoppable is the fact that they survived the Reapers? Wouldn't that mean the united galaxy is also unstoppable, for surviving the Reapers? 

Wouldn't that mean the united galaxy is also more unstoppable than the Leviathans? Because they didn't just survive the Reapers by hiding, like the Leviathans did, they beat them. You just undermined your whole argument. 

[Argolas]

Can we just get back to posting cuttlefish gifs?

No, I can't post that. They'll ban me for encouraging spam *sigh*.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Seival wrote...

Once indoctrinated, thrall remains thrall forever. But if a thrall gets out of orbs range (or an orb was destroyed), he cannot be controlled directly until he gets close to an orb or a Leviathan again. Moreover, if controlled directly, thrall will have no memories of what happened while he was controlled. All of that was shown in the DLC.

Leviathans had no problems controlling lesser races before the Cycles began, and during the Cycles (which had to be much more difficult than before the Cycles). This means Leviathans are much harder to oppose than the Reapers themselves (who cannot defeat the Leviathans completely no matter how hard they tried).

Lesser races have no tools to oppose Leviathans, moreover lesser races will never even want to do that. Finally, after the Reaper threat was stopped, Leviathans started to recover to their full strength, and they will recover much faster than anyone else (considering technology and abilities they possess).


In short - Leviathans survived the Reapers. This is actually the only prove we need to state that Leviathans are unstoppable. Especially after they will recover. No one wants to be their enemies. Co-existence is the only way to go. Even the Catalyst understood this.

1) Yes, your first paragraph is more or less correct (for once). I never disputed that. In fact, I recall mentioning that people who were once under Levi's control probably have a greatly reduced resistance to further enthrallment, and possibly indoctrination. It adds nothing to what I said.

2) I really wish you would stop using the term 'lesser races'. There's nothing 'greater' about them except for their physical size. You're also drawing a conclusion from completely unrelated data. I'll say that again: completely unrelated data. How the hell do you do it?

The Leviathans enthrall races, and had trouble doing so during the cycle. Therefore they are nearly unstoppable because the Reapers didn't entirely exterminate them. That is... there is absolutely no sense to be drawn from this statement. Back to the last paragraph: You took some information and came to a conclusion. But the conclusion is to a completely separate issue.

You statement was akin to taking a math problem and solving it with a geography fact. 2+2 = Accra is the capital of Ghana. That's your statement. There's nothing to argue against. 

And the Reapers never knew where the Leviathans were. The Leviathans are adept at covering their tracks. If the Reapers knew their location, Leviathan would have been wiped out.

3) And yes, we do have tools. It's called a fleet, with no thralls for the Leviathans to utilize. Their artifacts will be destroyed post-war.  With no thralls and no artifacts, the Leviathans will be harmless. I certainly oppose the Leviathans. I'm not going to let them return to control or prominence. They should consider themselves fortunate that they get to even exist at all. If they try anything, we will wipe them out for good.

4) You have no idea how flawed your conclusion is. Leviathan managed to survive (by hiding) thus they are unstoppable? No. We built the Crucible, we destroyed the Reapers. By your logic we too are invincible. And I don't want to co-existence with the Leviathans. They seek to dominate. I'm not going to let them be our big crabby overlords. No one wants to be their enemy, but really, they leave us no choice. And lastly, you're twisting the words to a completely separate argument (a crappy one too) to suit your own intellectual faux pas.

And lastly, again, you're using information that you made up on the spot. You're using your own headcanon as quantative and objective proof. You are false.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Morlath wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

1) Yes. But you don't think the Reapers aren't smart enough to see what's going on? Perhaps they don't, but I think Leviathan is going to be making as small waves as possible in the interest of safety. The plan was to get to safety. Once in safety, then they could plan their... return, or future survival. With the galaxy perpetually under the reign of the Reapers, there's really nothing Leviathan can do.

The way the game puts it the Reapers only know what's going on with each cycle is by the information stored within the Citadel and anything an indoctrinated being is able to tell them. I'd say that as long as the Leviathans keep themselves from showing up in official records and stay hidden during a Reaper attack then they should be able to move around easily after each attack has finished.

It should take a good amount of years for new species to gain space flight. In this time the Leviathans could, coneivably move planets, drop their orbs and create new thralls.

3) You didn't really respond to my last point. Really all you did was further stipulate one of my points. The point is that they need thralls to build their ships. Since they aren't going to get any native thralls from Despoina, they'll have to rely on their orbs to find them. That means that the thralls would have to independently build their ships and fly them to their world themselves. Maybe they've done that in the past. Maybe the Reapers find the ship and destroy it, or destroy the thralls before the ships are ready.

The Leviathans comes across as too smart to allow themselves to be trapped on one planet and if the Reapers had found any ships/thralls post the original cycle then they would have searched for the Leviathans.

1) Leviathans have hidden their own existence from a galaxy at large for a billion years. But that means nothing, since the Reapers themselves know that they still exist and are still out there.

3) I'm sure the Reapers did search for Leviathan in previous cycles. Also, don't assume that just because they come off as smart, they're foolproof thinkers. That really won't hold very well.

[Morlath]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

1) Leviathans have hidden their own existence from a galaxy at large for a billion years. But that means nothing, since the Reapers themselves know that they still exist and are still out there.

3) I'm sure the Reapers did search for Leviathan in previous cycles. Also, don't assume that just because they come off as smart, they're foolproof thinkers. That really won't hold very well.

Knowing a species is out there is one thing, knowing they're out there and being completely unable to find them is another. The fact that over a billion years the Reapers weren't able to find the Leviathans says something about their ability to hide.

And don't think it would be because they're all on one world. If they didn't move worlds between cycles then the Reapers could do a systematic sweep of the entire galaxy, planet by planet, using all the cannon fodder they had in the search for the Leviathans and would eventually find them.

It's a logically assumption that the Leviathans would be on multiple planets with escape plans. If a Reaper turns up, they can kill it and then use said escape plan to disappear before more appear.

Unless they're arrogant enough to think that they could take on the entire Reaper army and it's been proven and accept by them that they can't.

[masster blaster]

Reapers can go to hell, oh wait I sent them to hell.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Morlath wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

1) Leviathans have hidden their own existence from a galaxy at large for a billion years. But that means nothing, since the Reapers themselves know that they still exist and are still out there.

3) I'm sure the Reapers did search for Leviathan in previous cycles. Also, don't assume that just because they come off as smart, they're foolproof thinkers. That really won't hold very well.

Knowing a species is out there is one thing, knowing they're out there and being completely unable to find them is another. The fact that over a billion years the Reapers weren't able to find the Leviathans says something about their ability to hide.

And don't think it would be because they're all on one world. If they didn't move worlds between cycles then the Reapers could do a systematic sweep of the entire galaxy, planet by planet, using all the cannon fodder they had in the search for the Leviathans and would eventually find them.

It's a logically assumption that the Leviathans would be on multiple planets with escape plans. If a Reaper turns up, they can kill it and then use said escape plan to disappear before more appear.

Unless they're arrogant enough to think that they could take on the entire Reaper army and it's been proven and accept by them that they can't.

Indeed. It is a testament to how well they can hide. I'm not going to call them cowards for it. There's nothing that the Levi's can do alone. They do exist in a very unapproachable and inhospitable environment. That said, I think they are very few in number, and hide for a short period of cycles on world before gaining the technology from thralls to transport to another. 

Let's put it this way. I believe all Leviathans are on one world at a time.

However, I believe they move planets every few cycles. They'll get a race to build them ships and transport to a new world just before the next extinction period is due to begin. 

They switch planets, but stay together. That is my hypothesis.

[Morlath]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Indeed. It is a testament to how well they can hide. I'm not going to call them cowards for it. There's nothing that the Levi's can do alone. They do exist in a very unapproachable and inhospitable environment. That said, I think they are very few in number, and hide for a short period of cycles on world before gaining the technology from thralls to transport to another. 

Let's put it this way. I believe all Leviathans are on one world at a time.

However, I believe they move planets every few cycles. They'll get a race to build them ships and transport to a new world just before the next extinction period is due to begin. 

They switch planets, but stay together. That is my hypothesis.

Valid and one I can't argue against.

To follow on from your theory, it stands to reason then that the Leviathans would still have a way of leaving the planet "just in case" if only so that they have a single emergency back-up to go to.

[Seival]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Once indoctrinated, thrall remains thrall forever. But if a thrall gets out of orbs range (or an orb was destroyed), he cannot be controlled directly until he gets close to an orb or a Leviathan again. Moreover, if controlled directly, thrall will have no memories of what happened while he was controlled. All of that was shown in the DLC.

Leviathans had no problems controlling lesser races before the Cycles began, and during the Cycles (which had to be much more difficult than before the Cycles). This means Leviathans are much harder to oppose than the Reapers themselves (who cannot defeat the Leviathans completely no matter how hard they tried).

Lesser races have no tools to oppose Leviathans, moreover lesser races will never even want to do that. Finally, after the Reaper threat was stopped, Leviathans started to recover to their full strength, and they will recover much faster than anyone else (considering technology and abilities they possess).


In short - Leviathans survived the Reapers. This is actually the only prove we need to state that Leviathans are unstoppable. Especially after they will recover. No one wants to be their enemies. Co-existence is the only way to go. Even the Catalyst understood this.

1) Yes, your first paragraph is more or less correct (for once). I never disputed that. In fact, I recall mentioning that people who were once under Levi's control probably have a greatly reduced resistance to further enthrallment, and possibly indoctrination. It adds nothing to what I said.

2) I really wish you would stop using the term 'lesser races'. There's nothing 'greater' about them except for their physical size. You're also drawing a conclusion from completely unrelated data. I'll say that again: completely unrelated data. How the hell do you do it?

The Leviathans enthrall races, and had trouble doing so during the cycle. Therefore they are nearly unstoppable because the Reapers didn't entirely exterminate them. That is... there is absolutely no sense to be drawn from this statement. Back to the last paragraph: You took some information and came to a conclusion. But the conclusion is to a completely separate issue.

You statement was akin to taking a math problem and solving it with a geography fact. 2+2 = Accra is the capital of Ghana. That's your statement. There's nothing to argue against. 

And the Reapers never knew where the Leviathans were. The Leviathans are adept at covering their tracks. If the Reapers knew their location, Leviathan would have been wiped out.

3) And yes, we do have tools. It's called a fleet, with no thralls for the Leviathans to utilize. Their artifacts will be destroyed post-war.  With no thralls and no artifacts, the Leviathans will be harmless. I certainly oppose the Leviathans. I'm not going to let them return to control or prominence. They should consider themselves fortunate that they get to even exist at all. If they try anything, we will wipe them out for good.

4) You have no idea how flawed your conclusion is. Leviathan managed to survive (by hiding) thus they are unstoppable? No. We built the Crucible, we destroyed the Reapers. By your logic we too are invincible. And I don't want to co-existence with the Leviathans. They seek to dominate. I'm not going to let them be our big crabby overlords. No one wants to be their enemy, but really, they leave us no choice. And lastly, you're twisting the words to a completely separate argument (a crappy one too) to suit your own intellectual faux pas.

And lastly, again, you're using information that you made up on the spot. You're using your own headcanon as quantative and objective proof. You are false.

Long before the Cycles started Leviathans co-existed with lesser races. They allowed lesser beings to be advanced enough to build the machines that eventually destroy them. Pre-cycles galactic community was as advanced as current one, if not more advanced. And they knew about Leviathans even before becoming advanced. Those paintings on the rock were a part of pre-cycles galactic civilization ancient history. How many pre-cycles races tried to attack Leviathans? It doesn't matter, because they obviously didn't succeed. Current galactic civilization is not different. It will not care, or suffer trying to attack.

Reapers have all needed to track down and destroy Leviathans: countless fleets, countless ground forces that are not initially affected by Leviathans indoctrination, and do not need to sleep, eat, and rest. They can bombard planets from orbits if needed (and they did such thing before, when it was needed, Javik told about that). They outnumber Leviathans. They have a way to track Leviathans' positions (that was shown in the DLC). They never stopped trying to finish the Leviathans, but they didn't succeed. And if Reapers couldn't finish Leviathans, then no one can.



Don't tell me, that galactic civilization defeated the Reapers. The threat was stopped only thanks to three entities: the Catalyst, the Crucible, and the Shepard. Without the cooperation of Catalyst and Shepard, or without the Crucible, there is only Refuse.

Why am I telling this? Galactic civilization is not a race of gods, and humans defeat everyone and everything on their way only in bad written primitive stories. You can't win in Mass Effect, no matter which ending you chose, or what do you think of the consequences. The winners existence and their nature is beyond your comprehension. In Mass Effect the paths of existence were developed for you, not by you.

This is what makes the story really great.

ME Trilogy is not some silly and primitive Independence Day, or War of the Worlds. Movies like Independence Day make me sick. They make humans godlike, while in practice humans are nothing but a little advanced mammals. As a race, we do not deserve better description. Better description must be earned first.

Modifié par Seival, 06 mai 2013 - 08:47 .

[Tron Mega]

how can anyone base an argument on the logic surrounding what the catalyst says?

hows that possible?

[xlegionx]

There are so many flaws in your argument Seival. The fact that the Reapers haven't found the Leviathans doesn't make the Leviathans unstoppable. It just means that the Reapers haven't gotten around to finishing them off.

Both sides know that in open conflict, the Reapers win, because as you stated they have far superior numbers. So the Leviathans have no interest coming out of hiding for fear of extinction. The Reapers then no longer need to commit vast resources to tracking down the Leviathans if they're going to stay out of the way. They would've likely committed more resources to eliminating the Leviathans had the Reaper on the Leviathan planet had transmitted to other Reapers that the current cycle was making contact with the Leviathans, which doesn't seem to be the case

Modifié par xlegionx, 07 mai 2013 - 03:29 .

[PsyrenY]

If the Leviathans are all in one place, they're beyond stupid and deserve to be extinguished.

[Ticonderoga117]

Optimystic_X wrote...

If the Leviathans are all in one place, they're beyond stupid and deserve to be extinguished.

They built an AI to solve a problem with AI's.
They got whooped by said AI despite the fact that they can can shut down Reapers from below an ocean.
They can't reconcile hating the catalyst for killing them, yet are glad the Catalyst killed them.

They are perhaps the most retarded race in the history of SciFi including the bloody Pakleds from Star Trek!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

It's impossible to argue with Seival. All I can say is that he's wrong... about everything... and move on. 

He makes **** up and calls me deluded and idiotic for not believing in it.

He literally disregards science, reason, and established fact of the medium (and reality) to come to a conclusion that only he would think of and condemn others for making fact-based and logical outcomes along with a very insane worldview that basically condemns humans for being human since we haven't submitted to machine overlords yet. If someone is better than you at something, they are a "higher being" that is more valuable and worthwhile.


He's psychotic. Absolutely psychotic. He is completely out of touch with reality. Insane. Crazy. 

There is no truth to his statements. There is no enlightenment. It's the bull**** you find on Ancient Aliens or Kids Say The Darndest Things.

It's like trying to argue with Caboose from RvB.

And I feel and look like an idiot to other people who think I'm wasting my time trying to argue with Seival.

I'm just tired of arguing with a guy who makes things up and calls it the truth. Not just about the game, but real life.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 07 mai 2013 - 04:33 .

[PsyrenY]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

They got whooped by said AI despite the fact that they can can shut down Reapers from below an ocean.

Actually, it was the Catalyst's "army of pawns" that slaughtered them initially. We don't know whether those pawns were synthetic, organic or both. Who knows, they could have even been the byproducts of the Catalyst's failed synthesis attempts. Either way, there were no Reapers when the Leviathans were initially harvested, so their ability to stop one Reaper that flew to their home planet doesn't necessarily prove anything.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

They can't reconcile hating the catalyst for killing them, yet are glad the Catalyst killed them.

I'm not sure what this means or where you got it from 

[Jadebaby]

[Red Dust]

Argolas wrote...

I title the reapers "reapers". That pretty much seems to nail it.

Ah yes, "Reapers".

[Ticonderoga117]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

They got whooped by said AI despite the fact that they can can shut down Reapers from below an ocean.

Actually, it was the Catalyst's "army of pawns" that slaughtered them initially. We don't know whether those pawns were synthetic, organic or both. Who knows, they could have even been the byproducts of the Catalyst's failed synthesis attempts. Either way, there were no Reapers when the Leviathans were initially harvested, so their ability to stop one Reaper that flew to their home planet doesn't necessarily prove anything.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

They can't reconcile hating the catalyst for killing them, yet are glad the Catalyst killed them.

I'm not sure what this means or where you got it from 

So being able to "blink" a Reaper to death is a small feat? A Reaper was shut down almost effortlessly. I highly doubt anything else would be as hard.

The last bit is because they acknowledge the Catalyst is doing it's job. Yet they fight it. Pick one or the other.

[PsyrenY]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

So being able to "blink" a Reaper to death is a small feat? A Reaper was shut down almost effortlessly. I highly doubt anything else would be as hard.

I didn't say that, but there's a lot we don't know about that attack. Can it stop more than one Reaper at a time? How often can the Leviathans do it? We saw 4 of their orbs light up before it fired - can they do it with less, or with none? What's the maximum range on it? Is it longer than the range of a Reaper's main gun? etc.

It struck me as a failsafe - like the EMP on the Matrix ships. It's a powerful attack against the machines, yet the human ships' first option is still to run away.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

The last bit is because they acknowledge the Catalyst is doing it's job. Yet they fight it. Pick one or the other.

They chose to fight it because of Shepard. Before, they weren't fighting at all - they were hiding.

[Ticonderoga117]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

So being able to "blink" a Reaper to death is a small feat? A Reaper was shut down almost effortlessly. I highly doubt anything else would be as hard.

I didn't say that, but there's a lot we don't know about that attack. Can it stop more than one Reaper at a time? How often can the Leviathans do it? We saw 4 of their orbs light up before it fired - can they do it with less, or with none? What's the maximum range on it? Is it longer than the range of a Reaper's main gun? etc.

It struck me as a failsafe - like the EMP on the Matrix ships. It's a powerful attack against the machines, yet the human ships' first option is still to run away.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

The last bit is because they acknowledge the Catalyst is doing it's job. Yet they fight it. Pick one or the other.

They chose to fight it because of Shepard. Before, they weren't fighting at all - they were hiding.

Well like you said they weren't facing Reapers. They were facing... something. Something most likely less powerful than a Reaper, but probably numerous. Taking a stab at things, no other species had a much higher tech level than them at best because once a species got so far, they died thus the issue. Honestly, it's too hard to tell since there are no details, but to me, it seems odd they got beat. Just me though.

Why fight though? They acknowledge the kid is doing what they want. If that's what they want, why stop it? If they want to stop it, why do they say it's working OK as is?

[PsyrenY]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Well like you said they weren't facing Reapers. They were facing... something. Something most likely less powerful than a Reaper, but probably numerous. Taking a stab at things, no other species had a much higher tech level than them at best because once a species got so far, they died thus the issue. Honestly, it's too hard to tell since there are no details, but to me, it seems odd they got beat. Just me though.

It isn't necessary to have higher tech to kill something. The Leviathans were surpassingly arrogant - so comfortable at their apex that they literally couldn't imagine being opposed. 

But they did rely on the lesser races for tribute and technology, any of which could have been an avenue to their destruction. Perhaps they were poisoned (we have seen the Reapers are not above this tactic, therefore the Catalyst is not either), or perhaps their latest batch of delivered tech had been sabotaged. It is a weakness of their race that they so willingly accept gifts from their thralls.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Why fight though? They acknowledge the kid is doing what they want. If that's what they want, why stop it? If they want to stop it, why do they say it's working OK as is?

I assume you're referring to this line:

Shepard: "And now we all pay the price for your mistake."
Leviathan: "There was no mistake. It still serves its purpose."

You interpreted this to mean "the kid is doing what they want" - but that's not quite what Leviathan said. It actually said the Catalyst was doing what they told it to do - not necessarily what they wanted it to do. Those are actually two different things - and this is the underlying problem with AI, or genies, or any other entity that is more powerful than you are but that you want to give orders to. If it is too literal, you have to be very careful how your instructions are worded, and it is often better to avoid dealing with such entities at all.

Leviathan is being extremely literal here. The intelligence is doing precisely what they designed it to do, thus, there is no mistake - at least, in its orders. A response like that fits in with the Leviathans' overall arrogance and hubris - they are unwilling, or perhaps unable, to see the error in what they did.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 07 mai 2013 - 05:07 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Optimystic_X wrote...
It isn't necessary to have higher tech to kill something. The Leviathans were surpassingly arrogant - so comfortable at their apex that they literally couldn't imagine being opposed. 

But they did rely on the lesser races for tribute and technology, any of which could have been an avenue to their destruction. Perhaps they were poisoned (we have seen the Reapers are not above this tactic, therefore the Catalyst is not either), or perhaps their latest batch of delivered tech had been sabotaged. It is a weakness of their race that they so willingly accept gifts from their thralls.


I assume you're referring to this line:

Shepard: "And now we all pay the price for your mistake."
Leviathan: "There was no mistake. It still serves its purpose."

You interpreted this to mean "the kid is doing what they want" - but that's not quite what Leviathan said. It actually said the Catalyst was doing what they told it to do - not necessarily what they wanted it to do. Those are actually two different things - and this is the underlying problem with AI, or genies, or any other entity that is more powerful than you are but that you want to give orders to. If it is too literal, you have to be very careful how your instructions are worded, and it is often better to avoid dealing with such entities at all.

Leviathan is being extremely literal here. The intelligence is doing precisely what they designed it to do, thus, there is no mistake - at least, in its orders. A response like that fits in with the Leviathans' overall arrogance and hubris - they are unwilling, or perhaps unable, to see the error in what they did.

We are unaware of the nature of the tribute. Could be tech. However, they can live VERY deep underwater and in deep space. Hard places to reach or find. Plus we are unaware of the limits of thier power. I'm not saying it isn't implausible, it just seems unlikely unless they were REALLY stupid.

Actually, no. The Leviathans themselves said "It still serves its purpose." They gave it thier directive, and to the Leviathans, it's still doing that directive. If it wasn't doing it's purpose, what they wanted it to do, why say that? Your analysis of that line is wrong.

[PsyrenY]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Actually, no. The Leviathans themselves said "It still serves its purpose." They gave it thier directive, and to the Leviathans, it's still doing that directive.

Right, that's what I said. This is why they say there was no mistake.

That doesn't mean however that it was what they wanted. That is why they are fighting it.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

If it wasn't doing it's purpose, what they wanted it to do, why say that?

I still maintain that it's purpose and what they wanted it to do are two different things. Unless you're saying they wanted to be sneak-attacked and harvested - which they clearly didn't, or they wouldn't have labeled it "betrayal." And, again, they wouldn't be fighting back.

[Ticonderoga117]

Optimystic_X wrote...
I still maintain that it's purpose and what they wanted it to do are two different things. Unless you're saying they wanted to be sneak-attacked and harvested - which they clearly didn't, or they wouldn't have labeled it "betrayal." And, again, they wouldn't be fighting back.

But they litteraly say themselves, it does what they wanted. Which, as you bring up, makes no sense. That entire last portion of Leviathan had me facepalming.

Now, I could just agree and say there was something lost in communication, but really? The one thing they program it to do and they mess that up?

I guess I just have a hard time coming to terms with incompetence of extrmemly high order's being the reasoning for most of the problems in ME3, especially with the Reapers.