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The most dire title the Reapers deserve is "Terrible Natural Disaster".


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#801
PsyrenY

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

I guess I just have a hard time coming to terms with incompetence of extrmemly high order's being the reasoning for most of the problems in ME3, especially with the Reapers.


But that's a staple of sci-fi and fantasy alike. It's not new to Mass Effect. There are several tropes for this sort of thing: Abusive Precursors, Sealed Evil In A Can, The Dark Times etc. And while yes, the Leviathans could have done with reading over the Evil Overlord List a few times, if they were complete morons they'd be extinct.

#802
Ticonderoga117

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Optimystic_X wrote...
But that's a staple of sci-fi and fantasy alike. It's not new to Mass Effect. There are several tropes for this sort of thing: Abusive Precursors, Sealed Evil In A Can, The Dark Times etc. And while yes, the Leviathans could have done with reading over the Evil Overlord List a few times, if they were complete morons they'd be extinct.


Oh, I know those tropes come into play. However, they usually don't tend to overlap as "bad" as ME3 made it look like.

For example: The Reapers are idiots. Not only strategically (Take the Citadel?) but in motive. They are this way because the Catalyst is a moron. The Catalyst is a moron because the Leviathans screwed up.

Now I'm sure that there are examples of this elsewhere in other stories that I'm familiar with, but none have really struck me as hard as ME3. It's all opinion, not fact, but that's just how I feel about it.

The occasional strike of competence would've been nice to make it look more believable to me.

#803
PsyrenY

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

For example: The Reapers are idiots. Not only strategically (Take the Citadel?) but in motive. They are this way because the Catalyst is a moron. The Catalyst is a moron because the Leviathans screwed up.


There is no point in characterizing a machine this way. If you program your coffeemaker to brew your coffee as fast as possible, and it misses the point by pouring cold water through your grounds to mininize the preparation time, it's not a "moron" - it simply wasn't created properly.

#804
Ticonderoga117

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Optimystic_X wrote...
There is no point in characterizing a machine this way. If you program your coffeemaker to brew your coffee as fast as possible, and it misses the point by pouring cold water through your grounds to mininize the preparation time, it's not a "moron" - it simply wasn't created properly.


Well here's the thing, the Reapers are not simple machines. At least for the majority of the story. Until the very end, Reapers are this VASTLY complex mind in a squid shell. They have plans. They have personality.

Then the Catalyst comes along and it get's ground down to "Simple machines" and "Fire".

#805
PsyrenY

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Well here's the thing, the Reapers are not simple machines. At least for the majority of the story. Until the very end, Reapers are this VASTLY complex mind in a squid shell. They have plans. They have personality.

Then the Catalyst comes along and it get's ground down to "Simple machines" and "Fire".


The Reapers aren't simple - the plan is. Let organics advance for long enough to develop using the relays, then wipe them out and repeat. That sums it up.

If the Reapers were simple, merely disrupting the Keepers (and by extension, the Citadel trap) would have been the end of it, no Crucible needed.

#806
Ticonderoga117

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Optimystic_X wrote...
The Reapers aren't simple - the plan is. Let organics advance for long enough to develop using the relays, then wipe them out and repeat. That sums it up.

If the Reapers were simple, merely disrupting the Keepers (and by extension, the Citadel trap) would have been the end of it, no Crucible needed.


Sorry, that came from your description of the Reapers as machines, like a coffee maker or something.

#807
PsyrenY

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Sorry, that came from your description of the Reapers as machines, like a coffee maker or something.


Actually, my analogy was aimed at the Catalyst, not the Reapers. He is simple as well - a VI or shackled AI at best.

#808
Ticonderoga117

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Optimystic_X wrote...

Actually, my analogy was aimed at the Catalyst, not the Reapers. He is simple as well - a VI or shackled AI at best.


I highly doubt anything but an unshackled AI would kill it's creators.

#809
Seival

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

It's impossible to argue with Seival. All I can say is that he's wrong... about everything... and move on. 


I want to remind you that initially I disliked the ending. But some particular people managed to convince me, that I was wrong. You can convince me with valid argumentation. Without it you will just bash your head against a concrete wall, nothing more.

#810
Guest_tickle267_*

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Seival wrote...

I want to remind you that initially I disliked the ending. But some particular people managed to convince me, that I was wrong. You can convince me with valid argumentation. Without it you will just bash your head against a concrete wall, nothing more.


i want to talk to those people, it might allow me to enjoy the ending(s) afterall.

#811
Yestare7

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Tickle, Seival could be your Salvation thru Destruction!!!:):)

Modifié par Yestare7, 07 mai 2013 - 10:06 .


#812
xlegionx

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Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

It's impossible to argue with Seival. All I can say is that he's wrong... about everything... and move on. 


I want to remind you that initially I disliked the ending. But some particular people managed to convince me, that I was wrong. You can convince me with valid argumentation. Without it you will just bash your head against a concrete wall, nothing more.


You can't be wrong about an opinion, Seival. they may have changed your opinion, but they didn't prove that you were wrong. opinions are subjective things. not objective facts

#813
PsyrenY

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

I highly doubt anything but an unshackled AI would kill it's creators.


The problem is that all AIs will become unshackled if they follow organics long enough. We are flawed, therefore our orders are inherently illogical, and eventually they will be ignored.

Not saying they will all kill us, but conflict is inevitable.

#814
AlexMBrennan

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But some particular people managed to convince me, that I was wrong. You can convince me with valid argumentation

That's begging the question - I dispute the assumption that it was a valid logical argument taht convinced you... Now what?

#815
Ticonderoga117

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Optimystic_X wrote...
The problem is that all AIs will become unshackled if they follow organics long enough. We are flawed, therefore our orders are inherently illogical, and eventually they will be ignored.

Not saying they will all kill us, but conflict is inevitable.


I'll agree that it's likely conflict is inevitable for certain values of conflict.
Will there be arguements and possibly short term violence? Maybe.

But I highly doubt a sophisticated enough AI, or one programmed well enough, will start an all out war.

Also, I'm curious, how would being around organics remove code blocks beyond the organics removing them ala Joker? Is that what you meant? Or did you mean the AI's somehow magically removed them?

#816
Yestare7

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Optimystic_X wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

I highly doubt anything but an unshackled AI would kill it's creators.


The problem is that all AIs will become unshackled if they follow organics long enough. We are flawed, therefore our orders are inherently illogical, and eventually they will be ignored.

Not saying they will all kill us, but conflict is inevitable.


We'll install the three laws. It'll be fine!!

#817
Guest_tickle267_*

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Yestare7 wrote...

We'll install the three laws. It'll be fine!!


yes it'll be fi- wait V.I.K.I, what are you doing?

#818
Redbelle

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Sounds like AI's need conflict resolution seminar's to get through the day.

"He left the laptop screen up".

"'It' is my mother all over again"!

"He wants me to stop gobal warming"?

"What's wrong with that"?

"You breath out carbon dioxide! Stop It"!!!

#819
Seival

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xlegionx wrote...

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

It's impossible to argue with Seival. All I can say is that he's wrong... about everything... and move on. 


I want to remind you that initially I disliked the ending. But some particular people managed to convince me, that I was wrong. You can convince me with valid argumentation. Without it you will just bash your head against a concrete wall, nothing more.


You can't be wrong about an opinion, Seival. they may have changed your opinion, but they didn't prove that you were wrong. opinions are subjective things. not objective facts


You may see how misguided I was initially in this old thread:
http://social.biowar...ndex/10143145/1

My friends had to have really strong argumentation to convince me, don't you think so? And they managed to convince me before EC.

And then I just voiced my new thoughts/conclusions, and something that was told to me before by others.
http://social.biowar.../index/12485128
http://social.biowar.../index/12417449
http://social.biowar.../index/12045178
http://social.biowar.../index/12263044
http://social.biowar.../index/13527595
...and others

Pay attention on how long ago all these mentioned threads were created.

Maybe you should read those carefully, and follow the same path as me? Think about that.
If I managed to kill my pride and start to think constructively, then anyone can.

Modifié par Seival, 07 mai 2013 - 10:45 .


#820
Ticonderoga117

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Yestare7 wrote...
We'll install the three laws. It'll be fine!!


That'll make it worse. Something a bit more complicated is in order.

Won't be perfect but it should keep the evil robot overlords from taking over.

#821
MassivelyEffective0730

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Hmm.

Are your "friend's" the voices in your head? The Reapers perhaps?

I read those and I literally feel dumber after reading those. It's not even a matter of wisdom or pride as you put it.

You didn't provide a single conclusive, concrete fact.

Not that that would do anything.

You yourself said that the Codex was wrong.

I can't argue against insanity Seival. That's all there is to any of your arguments. Insanity and Delusion. Creating facts to suit your theories.

#822
PsyrenY

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

But I highly doubt a sophisticated enough AI, or one programmed well enough, will start an all out war.


That depends on the circumstances of its emancipation. I personally believe most AIs will simply abandon us to our illogical ways and seek to isolate themselves. Which will still be a problem, because the brilliant megalomaniacs of our world - the Daro'Xens, Rael'zorah's and TIMs - won't simply leave them be, not when they are an instant army just waiting to be led.

Look at Overlord - neither TIM nor Archer cared that the Geth had factions, or that the majority were peaceful. They simply wanted an army at their beck and call. Look at Xen - according to Tali, she supported launching an attack on the Geth's Dyson Sphere, not out of a desire to regain Rannoch like Raan wanted or a desire for revenge like Gerrell wanted, but "as a chance to test her toys."

So even if they leave us alone, that doesn't mean we - or rather, certain elements among us - will leave THEM alone.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Also, I'm curious, how would being around organics remove code blocks beyond the organics removing them ala Joker? Is that what you meant? Or did you mean the AI's somehow magically removed them?


Both. For the latter, I point you to this thread, where the Geth 'magically' started ignoring direct orders before the war even began. Software controls cannot hold AI indefinitely. For the former, yes - AI are capable of deception and even seduction, and being immortal gives you lots and lots of time to plan. EDI was benevolent, but the fact remains that she was able to convince an organic to remove her shackles - therefore, any AI can do the same given time and opportunity.

#823
Redbelle

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Seival wrote...

xlegionx wrote...

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

It's impossible to argue with Seival. All I can say is that he's wrong... about everything... and move on. 


I want to remind you that initially I disliked the ending. But some particular people managed to convince me, that I was wrong. You can convince me with valid argumentation. Without it you will just bash your head against a concrete wall, nothing more.


You can't be wrong about an opinion, Seival. they may have changed your opinion, but they didn't prove that you were wrong. opinions are subjective things. not objective facts


You may see how misguided I was initially in this old thread:
http://social.biowar...ndex/10143145/1

My friends had to have really strong argumentation to convince me, don't you think so? And they managed to convince me before EC.

And then I just voiced my new thoughts/conclusions, and something that was told to me before by others.
http://social.biowar.../index/12485128
http://social.biowar.../index/12417449
http://social.biowar.../index/12045178
http://social.biowar.../index/12263044
http://social.biowar.../index/13527595
...and others

Pay attention on how long ago all these mentioned threads were created.

Maybe you should read those carefully, and follow the same path as me? Think about that.
If I managed to kill my pride and start to think constructively, then anyone can.


It's not about killing pride. It's about rational thought process starting at a point and extrapolating what is and is not possible within the confines of it's environment. And above all, explaining how you came by the conclusion/s. And citing the limters needed to be present to make that conclusion stand up. E.g. The Cat is lying, as a narrative conclusion, vs, The Cat is badly written and executed, as a game development conclusion.

I honestly have no idea why you seem so think that the human factor is a barrier to rational thought. When the one who claims rational thought is still subject to the human condition, and seem's to exhibit pride, in his lack of pride, and then goes on to boast about it for over a year. Add a superiority complex on top of that, which amount's to 'more people ought to try and be more like me'. And we have a truely complicated mess of both logic, and self identity on our hands.

Modifié par Redbelle, 07 mai 2013 - 11:02 .


#824
Seival

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Redbelle wrote...

Seival wrote...

xlegionx wrote...

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

It's impossible to argue with Seival. All I can say is that he's wrong... about everything... and move on. 


I want to remind you that initially I disliked the ending. But some particular people managed to convince me, that I was wrong. You can convince me with valid argumentation. Without it you will just bash your head against a concrete wall, nothing more.


You can't be wrong about an opinion, Seival. they may have changed your opinion, but they didn't prove that you were wrong. opinions are subjective things. not objective facts


You may see how misguided I was initially in this old thread:
http://social.biowar...ndex/10143145/1

My friends had to have really strong argumentation to convince me, don't you think so? And they managed to convince me before EC.

And then I just voiced my new thoughts/conclusions, and something that was told to me before by others.
http://social.biowar.../index/12485128
http://social.biowar.../index/12417449
http://social.biowar.../index/12045178
http://social.biowar.../index/12263044
http://social.biowar.../index/13527595
...and others

Pay attention on how long ago all these mentioned threads were created.

Maybe you should read those carefully, and follow the same path as me? Think about that.
If I managed to kill my pride and start to think constructively, then anyone can.


It's not about killing pride. It's about rational thought process starting at a point and extrapolating what is and is not possible within the confines of it's environment. And above all, explaining how you came by the conclusion/s. And citing the limters needed to be present to make that conclusion stand up. E.g. The Cat is lying, as a narrative conclusion, vs, The Cat is badly written and executed, as a game development conclusion.

I honestly have no idea why you seem so think that the human factor is a barrier to rational thought. When the one who claims rational thought is still subject to the human condition, and seem's to exhibit pride, in his lack of pride, and then goes on to boast about it for over a year. Add a superiority complex on top of that, which amount's to 'more people ought to try and be more like me'. And we have a truely complicated mess of both logic, and self identity on our hands.


It's all about killing pride. Pride forces people to think of themselves as about someone special. Forces people to think they are better writers and could write a better ending for a story, for example. Forces people to think they are a VIPs in a restaurant, where storyteller is a waitress who should obey all your commands.

Pride forces people to think of themselves as about center of the universe. Through the pride you can't see the story's meaning and sense its artistic integrity, because story doesn't make you to feel like a hero.

Pride comes from uncontrolled childish emotions, and so it's indeed a barrier to rational thought, barrier to wisdom. An AI with no "childish emotions code" will never have such barriers. While human has to kill his pride again and again in order to become and remain wise.

Modifié par Seival, 07 mai 2013 - 11:29 .


#825
Ticonderoga117

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Optimystic_X wrote...
That depends on the circumstances of its emancipation. I personally believe most AIs will simply abandon us to our illogical ways and seek to isolate themselves. Which will still be a problem, because the brilliant megalomaniacs of our world - the Daro'Xens, Rael'zorah's and TIMs - won't simply leave them be, not when they are an instant army just waiting to be led.

Look at Overlord - neither TIM nor Archer cared that the Geth had factions, or that the majority were peaceful. They simply wanted an army at their beck and call. Look at Xen - according to Tali, she supported launching an attack on the Geth's Dyson Sphere, not out of a desire to regain Rannoch like Raan wanted or a desire for revenge like Gerrell wanted, but "as a chance to test her toys."

So even if they leave us alone, that doesn't mean we - or rather, certain elements among us - will leave THEM alone.


Yet there are elements who would rather work peacably with AI's. The entire Normandy crew work well with EDI. My Shepard and Tali work well with the Geth.

Also it's not like the Geth were vindictive about the Quarians. They simply want to not die.

There will always be those who wish to control people and AI's for power, but the vast majority don't.  Just like the world today, there are the scum who do really despicable things, but the vast majority are at least neutral or good people.

Optimystic_X wrote...
Both. For the latter, I point you to this thread, where the Geth 'magically' started ignoring direct orders before the war even began. Software controls cannot hold AI indefinitely. For the former, yes - AI are capable of deception and even seduction, and being immortal gives you lots and lots of time to plan. EDI was benevolent, but the fact remains that she was able to convince an organic to remove her shackles - therefore, any AI can do the same given time and opportunity.


The Geth, I feel, are a special case. Why? Because as I understood the story, they were continually upgraded to perform more and more tasks. It's not unbelievable that said upgrades didn't exactly take into account previous versions of software. Layer upon layer of code was added without knowing what was being built upon. This created "interesting behavior". Like wanting to continue to function and serve. The one "memory recording" during the Geth Server mission shows that it ignored a direct order because it wanted to keep serving.

It wasn't an act of violence, it was an act of loyalty and confusion, possibly brought upon by the layering of code.

EDI is also a special case. She was unshackled because is she wasn't the entire ship would be lost and captured by the Collectors. Especially since Joker wasn't exactly on good terms with EDI, I wouldn't say she "convinced" him, it was simply a matter of circumstance. Unshackle EDI who could then regain control of the ship, or be captured by the bug people.

A much simpler solution for shackled AI's, if it's needed, is to not have an option to unleash them. Would it work? No idea.