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The most dire title the Reapers deserve is "Terrible Natural Disaster".


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#101
drayfish

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Am I wrong? I mean, I'm irked about the endings in several places, but I don't want to stay unhappy over it, so I've learned to find what positive aspects I can from them. At least from Control; I'm still working on Synthesis, an ending that I actually like more, but have a harder time justifying in-character.


Sorry Xilizhra, but I'll never be so invested in wanting to enjoy any videogame as to smash my moral compass and embrace the vile message of ME3's ending. There's just no way.


And that's not to say that there isn't plenty to admire and enjoy about Mass Effect anyway right? I mean, its possible to (as I do) both love Mass Effect and condemn the ****** poor job Mac and Casey did in concluding Shepard's story.


Indeed.  In fact, I'm at a point now where I genuinely wish I didn't love what the Mass Effect universe used to be so much, because watching what it was turned into, and what its creators thought it should celebrate, is heartbreaking.

#102
drayfish

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Xilizhra wrote...

Sorry Xilizhra, but I'll never be so invested in wanting to enjoy any videogame as to smash my moral compass and embrace the vile message of ME3's ending. There's just no way.

But you don't have to smash your moral compass, just take the best option that you can with what you have.

If you were disgusted by a morally repugnant act, why would you think that it was you who was in the wrong? Why would you feel compelled to change your morality to suit that of a piece of fiction?

Genuinely, I am curious.

It's not about changing morality, it's about taking the best action you can when taking no action leads to everyone dying.

So it's about conditioning yourself to accept an immoral act because other options were 'worse'?

I can't say that teaching myself to become numb to ethical horror has ever been something I've looked for in fiction.

Modifié par drayfish, 24 avril 2013 - 01:19 .


#103
Guest_Fandango_*

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drayfish wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Am I wrong? I mean, I'm irked about the endings in several places, but I don't want to stay unhappy over it, so I've learned to find what positive aspects I can from them. At least from Control; I'm still working on Synthesis, an ending that I actually like more, but have a harder time justifying in-character.


Sorry Xilizhra, but I'll never be so invested in wanting to enjoy any videogame as to smash my moral compass and embrace the vile message of ME3's ending. There's just no way.


And that's not to say that there isn't plenty to admire and enjoy about Mass Effect anyway right? I mean, its possible to (as I do) both love Mass Effect and condemn the ****** poor job Mac and Casey did in concluding Shepard's story.


Indeed.  In fact, I'm at a point now where I genuinely wish I didn't love what the Mass Effect universe used to be so much, because watching what it was turned into, and what its creators thought it should celebrate, is heartbreaking.


Aye, it's a bummer for sure. Have you checked out Koobismo's Marauder Shields comic?

#104
drayfish

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Fandango9641 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

And that's not to say that there isn't plenty to admire and enjoy about Mass Effect anyway right? I mean, its possible to (as I do) both love Mass Effect and condemn the ****** poor job Mac and Casey did in concluding Shepard's story.


Indeed.  In fact, I'm at a point now where I genuinely wish I didn't love what the Mass Effect universe used to be so much, because watching what it was turned into, and what its creators thought it should celebrate, is heartbreaking.


Aye, it's a bummer for sure. Have you checked out Koobismo's Marauder Shields comic?

Definitely!  You are right - it now seems to be the only place that can reignite that spark.


EDIT: Actually (and I fully admit this is shameless) I wrote up an article about Koobismo's fine work a few months back:

http://drayfish.word...ng-the-fiction/

Modifié par drayfish, 24 avril 2013 - 01:25 .


#105
Xilizhra

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So it's about conditioning yourself to accept an immoral act because other options were 'worse'?

I can't say that teaching myself to become numb to ethical horror has ever been something I've looked for in fiction.

I think this has to do with a fundamental difference in our ethical systems. You're deontological, I'm more teleological and utilitarian. I believe that the best action you can undertake in a given situation cannot be immoral, because I believe that outcomes are more important than the intrinsic morality of actions.

Aye, it's a bummer for sure. Have you checked out Koobismo's Marauder Shields comic?

Yes, and frankly, I hate it.

#106
Guest_Fandango_*

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Xilizhra wrote...


Aye, it's a bummer for sure. Have you checked out Koobismo's Marauder Shields comic?

Yes, and frankly, I hate it.


Fair enough Xilizhra, fair enough.

#107
Auld Wulf

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drayfish wrote...

If you were disgusted by a morally repugnant act, why would you think that it was you who was in the wrong?  Why would you feel compelled to change your morality to suit that of a piece of fiction?

Genuinely, I am curious.

Because it isn't morally repugnant. BioWare actually did something clever. For the Mass Effect series they were playing up to the popcorn flick audience most of the time, and dropping anti-Reaper propaganda wherever they could. Now, this actually had me raise an eyebrow at multiple occasions, but others (like yourself) seem to have had your thinking successfully altered.

The ending presents a clever paradigm shift where everything you know is wrong. That's a really fun literary device and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. To pull the rug out from underneath the player and then force a choice on them which they have unlimited time (but limited, from the perspective of the game) to think about is absolute genius. It's the kind of thing you'd only expect from Deus Ex, which has done similar. The disconnect here is that the mainstream were ready to believe in absolutes. That the Reapers were an absolute evil, that the player was an absolute good.

Except it turns out that it wasn't as simple-minded as that. The endings represented different ideas and ideologies. Basic black & white classifications such as 'it be good' or 'it be evil' just don't fit. It's like trying to fit a square peg in a tesseract-shaped hole. To a degree it might work, but ultimately the ending is meant to be parsed differently and actually requires some reflection on personal philosophies. Each ending is an ideology. Destroy is very much a mix of Nietzschean and Darwinian beliefs, Control represents a 1984-esque fascist ideology of absolute control over everyone (Shepard is essentially Big Brother), and Synthesis is more representative of ideologies like transhumanism and the Singularity.

I can't help but hear Bush's words echoing in my ears when someone condemns Synthesis, because I'm reminded of his 'special little snowflakes' rants, and how Abortion should be illegal because it tampers with the natural order. This is silly. Everything we do tampers with the natural order, as I've pointed out. Read a book? You grow intellectually. That's tampering with yourself beyond what nature intended, since you now know something you otherwise couldn't have known, and you're familiar with viewpoints and perspectives you otherwise wouldn't have been. Had a successful operation? Your life has now been prolonged further than nature would have intended, you are now essentially an unnatural creature because you didn't die when you were supposed to.

Using synthetic medicines or supplements? That's also unnatural. Technology for global interconnectivity? We weren't born with it, so... unnatural! And it goes on. See, this always happens. You'll always have people, like you, who'll scream at any kind of advancement that they don't actually understand. I've pointed this out before, and I've also pointed out that this problem even exists on the consumer level. Basically, your argument is grouping you in with the likes of 'Stop the Cyborgs!'

Google Glass is a cool bit of consumerist tech that will likely be helpful to a lot of people. It's got the potential to be the new iPhone in a way, since it allows for hands-free connectivity. Yet, as I mentioned, you have people reacting to this as though it's somehow interfering with the natural order. That life will be irrevocably changed, that this device shouldn't even be allowed in many public venues because you're 'spying' or whatever else. You have very luddite-minded people who feel threatened by it. You have people outright claiming that just because someone has a Google Glass device, that privacy will be outright impossible. GASP!

I'm not making this up.

In the UK, we have lots of cameras everywhere for our protection anyway. So that this is an issue in the UK is absolutely ridiculous. Providing that you obey the law outside of your home, how can this be a threat to privacy? Stepping outside your door every morning then is a threat to privacy. But you can't talk to people like that, because they se it as repugnant, so unnatural, and a threat to their way of life. Everything we do brings us one step closer to a technological Singularity, transhumanism drives many scientific minds. I have a number of engineer friends who're all big fans of transhumanism, Deus Ex, and Synthesis.

There's nothing repugnant about Synthesis. It's just an idea, an ideology, and a potentiality for our future. It's symbolism. To see it as anything else is to group yourself in with the 'Stop the Cyborgs!' people.

But some people will always be smarter than others. I'm guessing that people who find Synthesis so very repgunant aren't actually doctors, scientists, or engineers. It would be very hard to find something that is essentially a cure to the organic condition as repugnant, when the suffering of so many would end. Under the Hippocratic Oath, you'd actually be loathe to choose anything other than Synthesis as it would make you a hypocrite.

So there you go.

#108
Guest_Fandango_*

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Xilizhra wrote...

I think this has to do with a fundamental difference in our ethical systems. You're deontological, I'm more teleological and utilitarian. I believe that the best action you can undertake in a given situation cannot be immoral, because I believe that outcomes are more important than the intrinsic morality of actions.


Splendid. Would you like to reveal to us all then the set of circumstances under which you consider it perfectly fine to torture a child for fun…..without compromising your morals or ethics I mean?

#109
Xilizhra

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think this has to do with a fundamental difference in our ethical systems. You're deontological, I'm more teleological and utilitarian. I believe that the best action you can undertake in a given situation cannot be immoral, because I believe that outcomes are more important than the intrinsic morality of actions.


Splendid. Would you like to reveal to us all then the set of circumstances under which you consider it perfectly fine to torture a child for fun…..without compromising your morals or ethics I mean?

Some motivations combined with actions, unlike actions alone, can be considered inherently unethical. However, unlike actions, motivations are never forced, so you don't need to worry about a forced ethical compromise in that direction.

#110
drayfish

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Xilizhra wrote...

So it's about conditioning yourself to accept an immoral act because other options were 'worse'?

I can't say that teaching myself to become numb to ethical horror has ever been something I've looked for in fiction.

I think this has to do with a fundamental difference in our ethical systems. You're deontological, I'm more teleological and utilitarian. I believe that the best action you can undertake in a given situation cannot be immoral, because I believe that outcomes are more important than the intrinsic morality of actions.

Aye, it's a bummer for sure. Have you checked out Koobismo's Marauder Shields comic?

Yes, and frankly, I hate it.


You do realise what the outcomes were every single time a character or species tried to impose their will upon others throughout the game though, right?  The Genophage; Batarian slavers; Cerberus experiments; Krogan Warmongering; the Thorian; Jacob's father on that weird planet; Miranda's father and his weird cloney obsession; the Quarians killing the Geth; the Geth killing the Quarians; everything that the Illusive Man did, ever; the (what-do-you-call-them?) Reapers.

Any time a character was presumptuous enough to claim that they had the fortitude, and the utilitarian right, to defy the freedoms of others (even if 'for their own good') it didn't go so well for them.

From your perspective I may appear mired in old-fashioned notions of moral 'duty', but I would counter by saying that the game itself rather makes that argument for me.

Modifié par drayfish, 24 avril 2013 - 01:39 .


#111
Xilizhra

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You do realise what the outcomes were every single time a character or species tried to impose their will upon others throughout the game though, right? The Genophage; Batarian slavers; Cerberus experiments; Krogan Warmongering; the Thorian; Jacob's father on that weird planet; Miranda's father and his weird cloney obsession; the Quarians killing the Geth; the Geth killing the Quarians; everything that the Illusive Man did, ever.

The genophage was the right decision for the time.

Any time a character was presumptuous enough to claim that they had the fortitude, and the utilitarian right, to defy the freedoms of others (even if 'for their own good') it didn't go so well for them.

The Reapers aren't currently free, so I'm not taking anything away by choosing Control. I also don't believe I'm infringing on any inalienable rights by reconstructing the damage done to the galaxy.

#112
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Xilizhra wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think this has to do with a fundamental difference in our ethical systems. You're deontological, I'm more teleological and utilitarian. I believe that the best action you can undertake in a given situation cannot be immoral, because I believe that outcomes are more important than the intrinsic morality of actions.


Splendid. Would you like to reveal to us all then the set of circumstances under which you consider it perfectly fine to torture a child for fun…..without compromising your morals or ethics I mean?

Some motivations combined with actions, unlike actions alone, can be considered inherently unethical. However, unlike actions, motivations are never forced, so you don't need to worry about a forced ethical compromise in that direction.


I don't follow.

#113
dreamgazer

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Wait, did I just see Wulf proclaim that all dutiful doctors would pick Synthesis based on their oath to practice just medicine?

And a comparison to Google Glass?

#114
drayfish

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Xilizhra wrote...

You do realise what the outcomes were every single time a character or species tried to impose their will upon others throughout the game though, right? The Genophage; Batarian slavers; Cerberus experiments; Krogan Warmongering; the Thorian; Jacob's father on that weird planet; Miranda's father and his weird cloney obsession; the Quarians killing the Geth; the Geth killing the Quarians; everything that the Illusive Man did, ever.

The genophage was the right decision for the time.

Any time a character was presumptuous enough to claim that they had the fortitude, and the utilitarian right, to defy the freedoms of others (even if 'for their own good') it didn't go so well for them.

The Reapers aren't currently free, so I'm not taking anything away by choosing Control. I also don't believe I'm infringing on any inalienable rights by reconstructing the damage done to the galaxy.


You are - simply by becoming the central, singularly most powerful being in the universe and pronouncing yourself its 'protector' - imposiing your will upon everyone, everywhere.

...But again, I have no desire to tumble down this rabbit hole with you again.

You love Control.  I get it.  You see no hypocrisy in its application, and have now trained yourself to accept its morality.  Soon you'll get there with Synthesis too, apparently.  Well done.

#115
Xilizhra

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think this has to do with a fundamental difference in our ethical systems. You're deontological, I'm more teleological and utilitarian. I believe that the best action you can undertake in a given situation cannot be immoral, because I believe that outcomes are more important than the intrinsic morality of actions.


Splendid. Would you like to reveal to us all then the set of circumstances under which you consider it perfectly fine to torture a child for fun…..without compromising your morals or ethics I mean?

Some motivations combined with actions, unlike actions alone, can be considered inherently unethical. However, unlike actions, motivations are never forced, so you don't need to worry about a forced ethical compromise in that direction.


I don't follow.

It's theoretically possible that one could justify torturing a child. For example, the procedures in The Exorcist. However, doing so for fun is doing harm without any good coming out of it at all, and is thus clearly immoral.

You are - simply by becoming the central, singularly most powerful being
in the universe and pronouncing yourself its 'protector' - imposiing
your will upon everyone, everywhere.

My will is imposed in all four endings; even by not making a choice, a choice is made.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 avril 2013 - 01:44 .


#116
Steelcan

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dreamgazer wrote...

Wait, did I just see Wulf proclaim that all dutiful doctors would pick Synthesis based on their oath to practice just medicine?

And a comparison to Google Glass?

........... He's just getting worse and worse.

Modifié par Steelcan, 24 avril 2013 - 01:46 .


#117
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dreamgazer wrote...

Wait, did I just see Wulf proclaim that all dutiful doctors would pick Synthesis based on their oath to practice just medicine?

And a comparison to Google Glass?



I think he was actually forwarding the idea that taking the trilogy off on a late tangent somehow excused the moral shortcomings of those final solutions.....but then I stopped reading after a paragraph or two.

Modifié par Fandango9641, 24 avril 2013 - 01:48 .


#118
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dreamgazer wrote...

Wait, did I just see Wulf proclaim that all dutiful doctors would pick Synthesis based on their oath to practice just medicine?

And a comparison to Google Glass?

Indeed. I haven't read too many of his posts before but his position seems to boil down to "Synthesis is the future and it's awesome".

#119
dreamgazer

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Fandango9641 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Wait, did I just see Wulf proclaim that all dutiful doctors would pick Synthesis based on their oath to practice just medicine?

And a comparison to Google Glass?



I think he was actually forwarding the idea that taking the trilogy off on a late tangent somehow excused the moral shortcomings of those final solutions.....but then I stopped reading after a paragraph or two.


Oh, I get the crux of his argument, and his outlook on those who disagree with his warped, self-justified viewpoint.

#120
Guest_Fandango_*

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Xilizhra wrote...

It's theoretically possible that one could justify torturing a child. For example, the procedures in The Exorcist. However, doing so for fun is doing harm without any good coming out of it at all, and is thus clearly immoral.


Sure, so if the catalyst demanded you torture a small, innocent child to stop the Reapers, you could do it with a clear conscience?

#121
Xilizhra

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's theoretically possible that one could justify torturing a child. For example, the procedures in The Exorcist. However, doing so for fun is doing harm without any good coming out of it at all, and is thus clearly immoral.


Sure, so if the catalyst demanded you torture a small, innocent child to stop the Reapers, you could do it with a clear conscience?

If it was between that or let the Reapers overrun the rest of the galaxy, performing their own torturous harvesting procedures on trillions of others? The choice seems clear, unless I could find a different method of activating the Crucible.

#122
drayfish

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Xilizhra wrote...

You are - simply by becoming the central, singularly most powerful being
in the universe and pronouncing yourself its 'protector' - imposiing
your will upon everyone, everywhere.

My will is imposed in all four endings; even by not making a choice, a choice is made.

Ah... so that's how you rationalise away responsibility...  Making any kind of choice is an act of will, so why not go the whole way and be an unstoppable totalitarian overlord?

Why not?

As I said, good luck with that.  Personally, I have no desire to riddle myself into 'accepting' the moral horror of the endings as you have done just so that I can convince myself I'm not revolted by their intolerant, hopeless message.

I'd rather cling to the beauty I saw in Mass Effect before it turned into an ad for complete moral relativity.  (Which, of course, is why I do like Marauder Shields.)

#123
Argolas

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Xilizhra wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's theoretically possible that one could justify torturing a child. For example, the procedures in The Exorcist. However, doing so for fun is doing harm without any good coming out of it at all, and is thus clearly immoral.


Sure, so if the catalyst demanded you torture a small, innocent child to stop the Reapers, you could do it with a clear conscience?

If it was between that or let the Reapers overrun the rest of the galaxy, performing their own torturous harvesting procedures on trillions of others? The choice seems clear, unless I could find a different method of activating the Crucible.


I am not saying your view is wrong, but it should not be followed too strictly. That way it has negative side effects, such as the encouragement of terrorism. If you are ready to do anything in order to prevent greater harm, acts such as taking hostages are extremely successful.

#124
Xilizhra

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Ah... so that's how you rationalise away responsibility... Making any kind of choice is an act of will, so why not go the whole way and be an unstoppable totalitarian overlord?

No, making any kind of choice at all is an imposition of my will on the entire galaxy. With Refuse, I derelict my entire mission and declare that galactic life is less important than my own moral code, something I find the most repugnant of all. However, I may instead go for Synthesis, which I personally do not see as some kind of eugenics program to make everyone alike.

I'd rather cling to the beauty I saw in Mass Effect before it turned into an ad for complete moral relativity. (Which, of course, is why I do like Marauder Shields.)

But that's even more absurd, not to mention being incredibly self-righteous in its tone.

I am not saying your view is wrong, but it should not be followed too
strictly. That way it has negative side effects, such as the
encouragement of terrorism. If you are ready to do anything in order to
prevent greater harm, acts such as taking hostages are extremely
successful.

Only in the short term. In the long term, such actions reduce your reputation with your peers and make them less likely to actually want to help you, in addition to convincing them that you don't actually work for the greater good; hence, such things should be avoided.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 avril 2013 - 02:01 .


#125
drayfish

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Argolas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's theoretically possible that one could justify torturing a child. For example, the procedures in The Exorcist. However, doing so for fun is doing harm without any good coming out of it at all, and is thus clearly immoral.


Sure, so if the catalyst demanded you torture a small, innocent child to stop the Reapers, you could do it with a clear conscience?

If it was between that or let the Reapers overrun the rest of the galaxy, performing their own torturous harvesting procedures on trillions of others? The choice seems clear, unless I could find a different method of activating the Crucible.


I am not saying your view is wrong, but it should not be followed too strictly. That way it has negative side effects, such as the encouragement of terrorism. If you are ready to do anything in order to prevent greater harm, acts such as taking hostages are extremely successful.


Indeed.  In fact, down that path the Reaper's own logic lies.  They were, after all, killing everyone for the 'greater good'...

If one really subscribed to such abstracted, objective thinking, then why get rid of the Reapers in the first place?  It makes the final act of the game (whatever is chosen) just a cowardly act of selfish self-preservation.

Modifié par drayfish, 24 avril 2013 - 02:05 .