883 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

@Argolas

Oh, that's your objection? Really?

The problem is that every decision making system we have relies on data we receive, which may be flawed. So instead of dealing in certainties, we deal in probabilities instead of just throwing our hands up and saying "screw this, I can't predict every single consequence so I better discard my entire paradigm".

Also, 99.99% of the time I don't compute all the consequences for making a decision. I use heuristics like "killing people is usually bad" "stealing tends to have negative consequences" etc. And they work! The problem is deciding when these heuristics, which serve us very well, don't apply. If trillions of lives are at stake I'm going to think things through with a bit more care.

As for submitting to the reapers, I really don't see the relevance. Under the Catalyst's control, do the Reapers have any preferences? Shouldn't we then choose Synthesis or Control, freeing the Reapers while simultaneously fulfilling some of our goals?

But what goals did you fulfill?  What did you just do in choosing one of these things?  And who is telling you what you did?  Sure, metagame it and the galaxy is super happy.  That's crap.  It's not realistic.  Better if BW had shown the good and the bad because then the decision is sufficiently difficult.  The choices are between some sort of life and not death by reaper.  Again, some fates are worse than death. 

You have no real idea what synthesis will do, nor that control will be a good thing.  All you know is that for today the reapers have stopped harvesting (in metagaming).  Shepard, in making a choice, has no idea that that's what will happen.  A good case could be made without metagaming that it won't or at least might not.  Too much faith has to be put into the explanation of the choices as given by the imp that has been sending the reapers to make people goo.  That's even accepting that he is not in any way connected to the creation of the choices in the first place and yet a good case could be made that he may have created the choices as well.  And at the very least the choices serve a problem that is not relevant to Shepard but are relevant to the idiocy and arrogance of the Leviathans and the flawed logic of the catalyst.  It's a fool's gambit.  Yes, the status quo is a known bad thing, but in making a choice you take the chance that you will make it even worse.  And that's because you can do real harm even if the choices are real. 

You have no idea what's been gained and BW chose not to show what could well be lost in making a choice.  Fluffy happy endings for all and that make no sense.  There are logical future ramifications for what the choices will do if valid.  And no they are not good.

[SpamBot2000]

@robert

Yeah, I am not a parent, but I do realize what that must feel like. I'm happy that it turned out OK for you.

Still, I must stress my view that the shock effect sought in that post was intended to shock people out of blithely accepting some very ominous things in a theoretical context. And yes, those discussions can be entered without full realization of the real world significance of some things for people. Much of our entertainment seems centered on murder. And that does happen to people, I've seen enough of this world to know that. And it is terrible for those who are touched by these things to see them discussed seemingly lightly. I've seen my share of comedy shows play with some pretty horrible stuff for laughs. But I believe the intent here was a moral one at least.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 24 avril 2013 - 06:26 .

[Eckswhyzed]

@3DandBeyond

That wasn't really meant to be an argument, and to be honest I'm not sure what I was aiming for there.

Seeing as we're getting into more general ending critique, I'm not really intereseted any more having seen it fleshed out in several other threads. Plus I'm very tired and am heading off to bed. Toodle pip!

[M Hedonist]

It's time for another episode of... Seival Rifftrax!

Seival wrote...

The Catalyst is not a dictator, it is the avatar of evolution.

And I'm an Orc warrior on like Lvl 50.

The Cycled Harvests were so rare, so specific, and so inevitable that they could be called a part of natural life-and-death circle.

I guess if some maniac killed half a dozen left-handed people every second full moon that could be called a natural life-and-death circle, too.

With each new Cycle the Catalyst was closer and closer to the ideal solution which it was created to find.

Yeah, the Reapers in the science department of dark space almost had their big breakthrough. Only a few more trillions of dead later and they would have made it.

Nature itself consumes lives.

Nature is evil.

For what? Just to create new ones.

Forget what I just wrote.

Better then the previous ones.

Yeah, that's evolution all right. Nature eats people, but then it makes better people. Forget adaptation and all that other nonsense.

The Cycled Harvests were not much different, and were only temporary. Once the ideal solution was found and proved to be valid, it was just a matter of time before the idea of that solution comes true.

So far you haven't backed any of the crazy things you write with any proof whatsoever, so I guess I'm just going to have to take your word for it.

The Reapers were never interested in war. They were created as keepers of Nature balance.

And here I thought they were giant death machines.

Even Leviathans, who were the first target themselves admitted that. The Catalyst and the Reapers did a lot of horrible things, but eventually they made the ideal solution possible. Let's not forget about that.

It's hard to forget something that never ever happened.

...Also, let's not forget one obvious thing: there are only two main choices in the end - apply Synthesis now, or delay it for some time by different means.

Oh come on now, I expected better of you. Yeah, there aren't 16 different endings, and the ones we got were originally just color swaps, but you've got to give them credit for making more than two endings. Can't we just finally leave the endings alone already?

Modifié par Sauruz, 24 avril 2013 - 06:45 .

[M Hedonist]

Aaand now I've taken a look at the last dozen or so comments and immediately regret posting in this thread.
It's a Seival thread for crying out loud. As long as he isn't proclaiming the evils of humanity, can't we just have a good hearty laugh about him?

Modifié par Sauruz, 24 avril 2013 - 06:49 .

[Argolas]

[quote]Sauruz wrote...

It's time for another episode of... Seival Rifftrax!
[quote]Seival wrote...

The Catalyst is not a dictator, it is the avatar of evolution.[/quote]
And I'm an Orc warrior on like Lvl 50.
[quote]The Cycled Harvests were so rare, so specific, and so inevitable that they could be called a part of natural life-and-death circle. [/quote]
I guess if some maniac killed half a dozen left-handed people every second full moon that could be called a natural life-and-death circle, too.
[quote]With each new Cycle the Catalyst was closer and closer to the ideal solution which it was created to find.[/quote]
Yeah, the Reapers in the science department of dark space almost had their big breakthrough. Only a few more trillions of dead later and they would have made it.
[quote]Nature itself consumes lives.[/quote]
Nature is evil.
[quote]For what? Just to create new ones.[/quote]
Forget what I just wrote.
[quote]Better then the previous ones.[/quote]
Yeah, that's evolution all right. Nature eats people, but then it makes better people. Forget adaptation and all that other nonsense.
[quote]The Cycled Harvests were not much different, and were only temporary. Once the ideal solution was found and proved to be valid, it was just a matter of time before the idea of that solution comes true.[/quote]
So far you haven't backed any of the crazy things you write with any proof whatsoever, so I guess I'm just going to have to take your word for it.
[quote]The Reapers were never interested in war. They were created as keepers of Nature balance.[/quote]
And here I thought they were giant death machines.
[quote]Even Leviathans, who were the first target themselves admitted that. The Catalyst and the Reapers did a lot of horrible things, but eventually they made the ideal solution possible. Let's not forget about that.[/quote]
It's hard to forget something that never ever happened.

[quote]...Also, let's not forget one obvious thing: there are only two main choices in the end - apply Synthesis now, or delay it for some time by different means.[/quote]
Oh come on now, I expected better of you. Yeah, there aren't 16 different endings, and the ones we got were originally just color swaps, but you've got to give them credit for making more than two endings. Can't we just finally leave the endings alone already?
[/quote]

I like you, Sir.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The reapers are demons from hell and deserve to all die. That's why I let the Quarians take care of the Geth. It takes me out of the dilemma of Walters' Ethical Box at the end of the game. Kiss it Starboy.

[robertthebard]

Fandango9641 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think this has to do with a fundamental difference in our ethical systems. You're deontological, I'm more teleological and utilitarian. I believe that the best action you can undertake in a given situation cannot be immoral, because I believe that outcomes are more important than the intrinsic morality of actions.

Splendid. Would you like to reveal to us all then the set of circumstances under which you consider it perfectly fine to torture a child for fun…..without compromising your morals or ethics I mean?

Bumping for Robert.

I read your post, and I quoted it for my initial reply.  I realize that some on BSN are used to reading one sentence and then going haywire with a reply, but I'm not one of them.  You felt the need to "win" the discussion so bad that you went to torturing children.  I find it abhorrent that you would go there, so you bump the post I initially quoted as proof that you're not abhorrent?  I'm frankly surprised you didn't just buy into the endings and aren't staunchly defending them.  You seem to share the Kid's capacity for logic.

Ok, would you prefer we swap out the word 'torture' for 'rape' Robert old son? Either way, would you be so kind as to spare me the fake indignation? You see, I've no real mind to take seriously the views of someone who would flip out at a simple question but excuse those who would answer its vile challenge – to say nothing of those who would defend the moral and ethical merits of genocide, eugenics and dictatorial rule...and all in this very thread!
 
Yep, you’ve certainly marked yourself as someone to be ignored Robert - so go wag that **** stained finger of yours somewhere else.

Being on your ignore list would be a compliment to me.  I haven't defended anyone's stance, but you created the scenario, and I'm supposed to blame somebody for not responding to it the way I did?  If my daughter came home from school accusing her teacher of touching her, I'd go beat the teacher's ass, then call the cops.  Am I supposed to be mad because somebody else might have called the cops first?  I have been through a missing child, I understand the range of emotions one goes through.  However, this post, instead of contradicting my initial assessment of your character only serves to confirm it.  You are still justifying the use, as if the end justifies the means, while telling someone else that the end doesn't justify the means.  That goes beyond double standard into the realm of hypocrisy, so yes, kindly ignore me.  Because quite frankly, you're doing me a favor.

[Kel Riever]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The reapers are demons from hell and deserve to all die. That's why I let the Quarians take care of the Geth. It takes me out of the dilemma of Walters' Ethical Box at the end of the game. Kiss it Starboy.

[robertthebard]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The reapers are demons from hell and deserve to all die. That's why I let the Quarians take care of the Geth. It takes me out of the dilemma of Walters' Ethical Box at the end of the game. Kiss it Starboy.

You go...

[Seival]

tonofluck21 wrote...

War machines defines them quite well actually. Me? I just see them as tools. For the Catalyst, for
The Illusive Man, or for Shepard.

Seival you and Wulf really need to stop antagonizing Destroyers, most of them are nice people even if you don't like there choice. I like them because they stand up for what they believe in even though some hate my choice.

In case of Destroy Shepard betrays EDI, Geth, and who knows how many people with vital synthetic implants. Moreover, Shepard kills all people harvested by the Reapers. This is almost as horrible as Refusal. This will left the wounded and terrified people among tons of derelict Reapers, and will left the problem unresolved for a long time.

In case of Synthesis or Control Shepard betrays only her pride, and kills only the desire to have a revenge. She sacrifices herself to prevent a lot of unneeded deaths now, and makes a huge step towards the peace in the nearest and distant future. She resolves the problem eventually.



I have to say that Destroy and Refusal are very strange choices for nice people.

[AlexMBrennan]

Moreover, Shepard kills all people harvested by the Reapers.

Yes, and you kill prehistoric life every time you drive to work.

[Ecrulis]

Seival wrote...

tonofluck21 wrote...

War machines defines them quite well actually. Me? I just see them as tools. For the Catalyst, for
The Illusive Man, or for Shepard.

Seival you and Wulf really need to stop antagonizing Destroyers, most of them are nice people even if you don't like there choice. I like them because they stand up for what they believe in even though some hate my choice.

In case of Destroy Shepard betrays EDI, Geth, and who knows how many people with vital synthetic implants. Moreover, Shepard kills all people harvested by the Reapers. This is almost as horrible as Refusal. This will left the wounded and terrified people among tons of derelict Reapers, and will left the problem unresolved for a long time.

In case of Synthesis or Control Shepard betrays only her pride, and kills only the desire to have a revenge. She sacrifices herself to prevent a lot of unneeded deaths now, and makes a huge step towards the peace in the nearest and distant future. She resolves the problem eventually.



I have to say that Destroy and Refusal are very strange choices for nice people.

I don't know why I keep posting this but what the hell it's a Sevial thread and I aim to have fun,




"No, wait I promise that you'll love your new life as reaper paste, it's totally a new ascension and stuff." 

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...
Moreover, Shepard kills all people harvested by the Reapers. 

They've been dead for a long while. Being melted down into liquid tends to do that to people. 

[omegamantis113]

Organics really don't like being at fault for a problem they created do they? The Reapers fulfilled what natural organic beings tasked them to do. You cannot expect a machine to comprehend morals and ethics unless you program them to have morals and ethics.

If only Isaac Asimov was around during the Leviathan reign this whole Reaper debacle could have been avoided.

[robertthebard]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...
Moreover, Shepard kills all people harvested by the Reapers. 

They've been dead for a long while. Being melted down into liquid tends to do that to people. 

Yeah, I'm looking at the pic posted above this post and trying to figure out if I'd consider myself alive or dead.

[Ecrulis]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...
Moreover, Shepard kills all people harvested by the Reapers. 

They've been dead for a long while. Being melted down into liquid tends to do that to people. 

No, no, no don't worry, it's simply a new acension...they're totally cool with being reaper paste fueling the genocidal space cuttle-fish

Modifié par Ecrulis, 24 avril 2013 - 08:20 .

[robertthebard]

omegamantis113 wrote...

Organics really don't like being at fault for a problem they created do they? The Reapers fulfilled what natural organic beings tasked them to do. You cannot expect a machine to comprehend morals and ethics unless you program them to have morals and ethics.

If only Isaac Asimov was around during the Leviathan reign this whole Reaper debacle could have been avoided.

Woah there matey.  While the AI that controls the reapers was indeed created by an Organic species, it wasn't created by us, and it created the Reapers.  It will even tell you it did.  Stupid idea is stupid, but it wasn't our idea, we're just suffering the consequences.

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...
This is almost as horrible as Refusal. This will left the wounded and terrified people among tons of derelict Reapers, and will left the problem unresolved for a long time.

The future looks bad...



Very bad...



No hope...



Oh, the horror!

[Ecrulis]

HOW COULD YOU SHOW THOSE HORRIBLE IMAGES! I'M GOING TO HAVE NIGHTMARES NOW!

Modifié par Ecrulis, 24 avril 2013 - 08:33 .

[omegamantis113]

robertthebard wrote...

omegamantis113 wrote...

Organics really don't like being at fault for a problem they created do they? The Reapers fulfilled what natural organic beings tasked them to do. You cannot expect a machine to comprehend morals and ethics unless you program them to have morals and ethics.

If only Isaac Asimov was around during the Leviathan reign this whole Reaper debacle could have been avoided.

Woah there matey.  While the AI that controls the reapers was indeed created by an Organic species, it wasn't created by us, and it created the Reapers.  It will even tell you it did.  Stupid idea is stupid, but it wasn't our idea, we're just suffering the consequences.

Organics will always be at risk of stupid ideas. Whether that stupid idea came from the Leviathan or us is irrelevent.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Seival wrote...
This is almost as horrible as Refusal.

Far less horrible than spacegrandpa if you ask me.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 24 avril 2013 - 08:34 .

[cyrexwingblade]

See, I used to be in the 'Seival's just different' camp. Now I'm pretty far leaning into '...stop feeding the obvious troll' camp.

See, I do understand the in-plot concept that the Reapers are basically 'slaves' to their harvest program inherited from the Catalyst, which is basically a shackled AI given one task and the power to actually mess up the galaxy trying to resolve that task.

So, I would be much happier punishing the Leviathan for their hubris, buuuuut it's been a few dozen cycles too many to just wipe the Reaper slate clean. They are born of the slaughter of an entire race, and used to slaughter other races, they are simply selective in which races they slaughter.

They are entities living for the express purpose of ending certain lives. It may be so that others can live, but their whole function is killing things. You can argue that the Catalyst is trying to accomplish a noble goal if you want, but his tools, the Reapers, are abominations by origin. They have access to data, genetic memory of the culture they were 'distilled' from, but the culture is dead.

Would it be nice to have the Reapers turn into animate libraries of galactic knowledge? Suuuure.

Not gonna turn everyone into cybornetic organisms against their will to achieve that.

The 'inevitability' of the tech singularity is also very much a debate, not an absolute. You can trust the Catalyst if you want, but there is no proof presented.

The Reapers are not just a 'natural disaster'. They are literally weapons of mass destruction, created by mass murder, to inflict further mass murder. I'm never going to be convinced otherwise, simply based on their behavior.

Could they be something more/better? Sure. They're not, but they're intelligent enough to have options if they can be freed of their behavior shackles.

At the point of choice, the end of the game, however, there is only one germaine point without headcanon or meta-gaming. Shepard is given three choices from a questionable source known to be fully allied and in control of the enemy.

I agree with Destroyer logic, that anything other than destroy is a huge risk, but my Shepard didn't want to act like a Reaper in the last moment. Since she couldn't trust that ANYTHING would do what the 'thing' said, she opted for the choice, based on the only information she had access to, that limited the casualties to herself, the catalyst, and the Reapers. Her, to take responsbility, the Reapers, for their constant genocide, and the Catalyst for being too shackled to free in the time-frame allowed by the choice. So she 'risked' Control. She hated the idea, but she risked it. Why? She had no way to verify anything, and had to make a call. Shooting Edi and the Geth after just trying to save them all wasn't acceptable at the time.

So that's MY two cents.