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Why is Destroy the only ending with a catch....


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#151
robertthebard

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Vortex13 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...
2. Shepard's beliefs and values are not the villian here, its the crazy person with the gun pointed at the galaxy. I've seen many posts concerning Refuse saying that if only Shepard had compromised, if only he/she had not been so idealistic then no one would have died. Now it is true that by not picking Refuse the current cycle will not die but the point I'm getting at here is that its not the beliefs/convictions' faults that everyone died, its the Catalyst and the Reapers.


So Shepard isn't responsible for the forseeable consequences of his own choice? If a man follows some good moral principles that lead to disaster, he's blameless for the disaster?


What if all of the endings except refusal was the Catalyst saying "We are now going to indoctrinate the entire galaxy, even the less advanced species, but we will not kill anyone go doesn't resist." Would Shepard, standing by his/her princibles still be considered the idiot for Refusing? 

In real life our courts wouldn't hold a person responsible if some maniac walked up to them and said "Rennounce God or I'll kill this baby!" and the person refused. Granted, refuse is on a much grander scale, and it (like the ending to the game overall) is lacking in many areas, but the notion behind it is still the same: not compromising your beliefs and convictions.

The enitre movie 300 is about refusal, if only the Spartans had compromised and accepted king Xerxes rule then none of then would have had to die, but they refused. I don't see an uproar of people calling them stupid for resisting futilely, against an overwhelming force.

It's called Negligent Homicide.  You didn't pull the trigger, but you could have stopped it, and chose not to.  To use a less dramatic example, with even less consequence; was putting Pagan symbols on the graves of Pagan soldiers in Arlington National Cemetery so bad?  Yet, it was people sticking to their beliefs and convictions which brought the debate to the forefront.  They have the right to die for their country, but not to have their religious beliefs recognized on their grave?  At what point does "sticking to one's principles" actually equal infringing on someone else's rights?  Since one person's rights end where another person's begins, isn't there a line to be walked with this?  My mom's response to this query, btw, was that Christians founded this country, and everyone else needs to just shut up.Image IPB

#152
CaptainCommander

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I always find it odd that people have this big problem with Destroy cause you kill the Geth and EDI. Hackett tells you that you can rebuild everything! I mean you still let millions of Humans, Asari, Turians, Volus, Vorcha, Batarians etc die while you wonder around the galaxy fetching statues for people yet your big problem is killing some computer programs? Destroy solves the problem of never having to deal with the Reapers ever again. Shepard AI can go crazy, Synthesis is an abomination that I told Saren was wrong!! So I never feel bad picking Destroy every time!!

#153
Bill Casey

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Wayning_Star wrote...

why didn't the OP just put "I WON!!" in the header? That's what all the fan fair is about here..sheesh.

(not winning is the 'catch'?)


There's no way to win...
Unless you're a sociopath, you lose no matter what...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 avril 2013 - 05:36 .


#154
Iakus

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CaptainCommander wrote...

I always find it odd that people have this big problem with Destroy cause you kill the Geth and EDI. Hackett tells you that you can rebuild everything! I mean you still let millions of Humans, Asari, Turians, Volus, Vorcha, Batarians etc die while you wonder around the galaxy fetching statues for people yet your big problem is killing some computer programs? Destroy solves the problem of never having to deal with the Reapers ever again. Shepard AI can go crazy, Synthesis is an abomination that I told Saren was wrong!! So I never feel bad picking Destroy every time!!


Yeah, and if you cure the genophage, the krogan start "rebuilding" too.  But their not bringing dead krogan back to life, if you know what I mean.

that's how it is with the synthetics.  You can make more, but the ones who died are still dead.  That's the tragedy.  ANd an arbitrary one

Modifié par iakus, 26 avril 2013 - 05:35 .


#155
TheProtheans

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Because the other two are wrong and awful and send a terrible message to the children.

#156
AlanC9

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Vortex13 wrote...
What if all of the endings except refusal was the Catalyst saying "We are now going to indoctrinate the entire galaxy, even the less advanced species, but we will not kill anyone go doesn't resist." Would Shepard, standing by his/her princibles still be considered the idiot for Refusing?


Interesting hypothetical, though of course it has nothing to do with the actual situation. We're talking about better Indoctrination than the usual kind, right? Given the decay standard Indoctrination imposes, that's just a slow death sentence anyway. You could make a case that extermination is preferable to slavery. Though historically humans have usually chosen the latter, however much we like to proclaim that we'd pick the former.

In real life our courts wouldn't hold a person responsible if some maniac walked up to them and said "Rennounce God or I'll kill this baby!" and the person refused. Granted, refuse is on a much grander scale, and it (like the ending to the game overall) is lacking in many areas, but the notion behind it is still the same: not compromising your beliefs and convictions.


I was talking morals, not law. Courts don't hold people responsible for terrible decisions; you have to break a law.

As for 300, that's a fairly trivial sacrifice of lives. Now, if the issue was the extermination of the entire Spartan population, it'd be on point.

#157
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*

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NeroonWilliams wrote...

The point of the choices as they are presented is that finally you HAVE to make a difficult choice that no amount of reputation or persuasion of any kind will allow you to come out without sacrificing something. All of the choices (with the possible exception of Refuse) is a resolution of the conflict with the Reapers. The question becomes what are you prepared to sacrifice in order to get that resolution?

It's not like you haven't had NPCs telling you all throughout the Trilogy that sometimes the right choice isn't the easy one. Hell, unless you refused to have anything to do with James, SHEPARD tells him the exact same thing.

So yes, Destroy has something of a downside to it. The question you must answer as Shepard is: is the downside of that resolution worse than the downside of any of the others?


^

#158
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Bill Casey wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

why didn't the OP just put "I WON!!" in the header? That's what all the fan fair is about here..sheesh.

(not winning is the 'catch'?)


There's no way to win...
Unless you're a sociopath, you lose no matter what...


Stop the melodrama already.

There's a wonderful way to win, don't play!

If you do play you kill the cuttlefish and call it a day.

Then everyone lived happily ever after (except for the robots but f*** those guys)

#159
Iakus

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 Just going to reiterate a point I said earlier:

[/quote]The death of EDI and the geth is just an arbitrary tragedy tacked onto Destroy.  

I mean, destroy already has a consequence:  a new dark age.

With Control and Synthesis you have the Reapers rebuilding the relay network.  With Destroy, you turn down the opportunity for the knowledge (Synthesis) and power (Control) of the Reapers in favor of galactic life developing along its own path.  In exchange, you have to find your own way to repair or replace the relays.  

It's not as devastating as the "galactic wasteland" implied in the original endings. But it could easily be years, even decades before the network is back up and running. 

But no, that's not enough, let's pile on a galactic genocide while we're at it.[/quote]

#160
Wayning_Star

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

running over a squirrel on the way to work, sort of fits the basis of chaos the cat was carrying on about..


HEY! 

I have a story about squirrels. 

I'm in the Army, right? One time we're out camping in the sticks. I draw fireguard and am out making sure the camp is secure. 

I hear a strange whimpering noise and investigate. I find a little baby squirrel that happened to fall out of a tree, and the mother squirrel (I'm guessing it was the mother)  was looking for it. I pick up the squirrel and put it somewhere on the tree it fell out of. 

The next morning, the squirrel is still there. After a long day of STX in the woods, we get back to camp. Coincidentally, the baby squirrel is there with it's mother. On my little plot.

Pissing away on my sleep system.

I swear I aim for those ****ers every time I see them now when I'm driving.


better to be pissed off than pissed on I spose..Image IPB

(put walnut saplings, stripped bark'n all under there, but don't tell anyone, they'll think you're a hippy...keeps the fleas and critters out, but don't put that stuff close, as it's not too good for your skin.. and don't cross the center line, the squirrels might win.. )

#161
AlanC9

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iakus wrote...
It's not as devastating as the "galactic wasteland" implied in the original endings. But it could easily be years, even decades before the network is back up and running. 


Maybe even a couple centuries for the whole network. Even after figuring out how to build relays, any system without a functioning QEC won't know how to build one for itself, so you'll have to get a construction crew there via standard FTL. Which means scooping fuel along the way and probably a lot of inefficiency looking for drive discharge points, until the Reaper drive systems get reverse-engineered.

#162
Bill Casey

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

why didn't the OP just put "I WON!!" in the header? That's what all the fan fair is about here..sheesh.

(not winning is the 'catch'?)


There's no way to win...
Unless you're a sociopath, you lose no matter what...


Stop the melodrama already.

There's a wonderful way to win, don't play!

If you do play you kill the cuttlefish and call it a day.

Then everyone lived happily ever after (except for the robots but f*** those guys)


tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatYouAreInTheDark

#163
Iakus

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AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...
It's not as devastating as the "galactic wasteland" implied in the original endings. But it could easily be years, even decades before the network is back up and running. 


Maybe even a couple centuries for the whole network. Even after figuring out how to build relays, any system without a functioning QEC won't know how to build one for itself, so you'll have to get a construction crew there via standard FTL. Which means scooping fuel along the way and probably a lot of inefficiency looking for drive discharge points, until the Reaper drive systems get reverse-engineered.


Also quite true.

Thus why Destroy is doubly screwed.

#164
robertthebard

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Bill Casey wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

why didn't the OP just put "I WON!!" in the header? That's what all the fan fair is about here..sheesh.

(not winning is the 'catch'?)


There's no way to win...
Unless you're a sociopath, you lose no matter what...


Stop the melodrama already.

There's a wonderful way to win, don't play!

If you do play you kill the cuttlefish and call it a day.

Then everyone lived happily ever after (except for the robots but f*** those guys)


tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatYouAreInTheDark

Yeah, and you walked right into it with Refuse.  After all, no one will know that you sat on your ass and did nothing to stop the Reapers, and you know the Kid is cheering you on to take it too.  After all, if it didn't want to harvest, it wouldn't be doing it, right?Image IPB

#165
Bill Casey

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You lose no matter what...
Refuse is the right thing to do, and everyone dies...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 avril 2013 - 10:56 .


#166
robertthebard

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Bill Casey wrote...

You lose no matter what...
Refuse is the right thing to do, and everyone dies...

...and nobody knows you could have done something to prevent it.  As I said, you walked right into the trope with both eyes open, and probably bought a t-shirt saying that too.

#167
Bill Casey

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robertthebard wrote...

...and nobody knows you could have done something to prevent it.


Genocide, rape and slavery...
Refuse is not the trope...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 avril 2013 - 11:00 .


#168
Argolas

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Bill Casey wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

...and nobody knows you could have done something to prevent it.


Genocide, rape and slavery...
Refuse is not the trope...


Bill Casey has a point.  From a deontological POV, refuse is the right thing.

#169
Bill Casey

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I can't accept the consequences of doing the right thing...
So instead I'm a ****ing monster...

And I hate myself...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 avril 2013 - 11:02 .


#170
AlanC9

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Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the right thing to do, and everyone dies...


Interesting definition of "right." 

Modifié par AlanC9, 26 avril 2013 - 11:03 .


#171
Bill Casey

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AlanC9 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the right thing to do, and everyone dies...


Interesting definition of "right"


Complete monsters, all of you...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 avril 2013 - 11:03 .


#172
AlanC9

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You might want to try a different definition of "right," since the one you're using doesn't even work for you.

#173
Wynterdust

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Destroy is genocide... but refuse isn't? What?

#174
Bill Casey

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Wynterdust wrote...

Destroy is genocide... but refuse isn't? What?


No it isn't...
There should have been a way to win in Refuse...

#175
Iakus

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Bill Casey wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

...and nobody knows you could have done something to prevent it.


Genocide, rape and slavery...
Refuse is not the trope...


He Who FIghts Monsters