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[Auld Wulf]

This forum amazes me, sometimes. Do they not teach any of the sciences in schools any more? Evolution is mutation. To say that Synthesis is repugnant is to say that life is repugnant. We mutate randomly all the time; Our environment changes us; We change ourselves.

What you're seeing as repugnant and abhorrent is human nature. We strive for perfection through mutation.

[SpamBot2000]

Xilizhra wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, given that Shepard's body had previously been disintegrated, I assumed that it wasn't literally a tiny version of her walking through a Reaper's eye in Control. I also assumed that the flashback slides during the final moments weren't those people literally appearing out of thin air to smile at Shepard.

Different presentation. Gilligan's Planet is shown through a neutral point of view, unlike Shep's visions. 

And the tinyShepard thing?

That I can't comment on, never having watched it.

[Steelcan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

This forum amazes me, sometimes. Do they not teach any of the sciences in schools any more? Evolution is mutation. To say that Synthesis is repugnant is to say that life is repugnant. We mutate randomly all the time; Our environment changes us; We change ourselves.

What you're seeing as repugnant and abhorrent is human nature. We strive for perfection through mutation.

. Synthesis isn't natural mutation.  It's an artificial upgrade.

[CDR David Shepard]

Auld Wulf wrote...

This forum amazes me, sometimes. Do they not teach any of the sciences in schools any more? Evolution is mutation. To say that Synthesis is repugnant is to say that life is repugnant. We mutate randomly all the time; Our environment changes us; We change ourselves.

What you're seeing as repugnant and abhorrent is human nature. We strive for perfection through mutation.

In my eyes...you are actually "killing" every being in the galaxy...present and future civilizations alike.

The slideshows may show that everyone still has their own mind...but genetic diversity is completely wiped out. There is now only one single race forever.

I would absolutely refuse before choosing synthesis so that I can at least save future civilizations...if not the present.

Modifié par CDR David Shepard, 24 avril 2013 - 07:17 .

[SpamBot2000]

There I was thinking that Auld Wulf was a typical (barely) post-adolescent who thinks he knows everything. But it appears he was educated in the 19th Century. 

Alas, modern man has lost his simple faith in the teleology of Nature.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 24 avril 2013 - 07:12 .

[Enhanced]

Steelcan wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 It's explicitly stated that Sync comes from the Crucile, not the Reapers.


"Add your energy to the Crucible, and (...)"

. Synthesis comes from the Crucible and Citadel working in tandem.

Destroy comes from the Crucible alone, Control from the Citadel.  One is an organic construct the other synthetic. N working in tandem they make Synthesis possible.

Neither the Destroy and Control constucts are part of the Crucible, but they are clearly attached to the Citadel.

Modifié par Enhanced, 24 avril 2013 - 07:13 .

[Auld Wulf]

Jukaga wrote...

The ME civs are all Type-I, synthesis transitions them to a Type-II. I don't think synthesis is abhorrent at all, my beef with it is that I really like the 'new kid on the block' vibe with the Terrans and we've not even had 50 years of galactic civilization to grow and spread our wings. It's way too damned early in the universe from a storytelling perspective to apply an 'end of history' solution to it. I want more conflict, more problems to solve, more adventures and synthesis, as I understand it steals that away from me.

See, I don't get that.

Something could happen tomorrow that could result in children being born with a third eye, and that then becomes the common genetic strain. Is it 'too early' for that? I think it's just the fear of the unknown speaking, here. I think you're a step above the vast majority of the forum by knowing of the Culture. But you're still looking at this all wrong.

Even as an enlightened, networked civilisation, we would still dream, think, and create. It wouldn't be an end of history. It would be the equivalent of a new Mayan baktun. See, think of it this way. Remember all the apocalyptic talk about 2012? It was interpreted as an 'end of all things,' and a 'great apocalypse to serve as the dusk of mankind.' Further investigation determined it wasn't that at all, but rather it was simply a new chapter.

Life is not a malfunction, it's a product of the environment it exists in. And life goes on.

Being Synthesised is going to cure the vast majority of physical illnesses fairly quickly, and provide avenues to help those with mental ones. It's going to deal with the mundanities of life. It's going to allow us to dream bigger and reach further, to go beyond our limits. See, to undergo a radical change isn't the end of life as we know it. Life goes on. It's simply a transference of life, a transcendence to life on a different scale. We'd cope just fine, just as we do with new sciences and technologies. It wouldn't be an end. To say it again: Life goes on.

History would continue to be written based upon what we do post-Synthesis. Synthesis is an event, but not an ending. The only true 'ending' is the eradication of all life, which Synthesis isn't responsible for. I see this as being no different than the kind of radical changes that lead to us using tools, or modern medicine. So much has changed about us over the course of time. And no matter how much we would change, life goes on. We can't see changing what we are as abhorrent, because we're changing all the time. And when evolution happens, those changes can be radical.

A radical change from evolution, or a radical change because of nanotechnology, what does it matter? We're still human. And life still goes on.

I just... really don't understand that kind of thinking.

[Auld Wulf]

Enhanced wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

...there is however something incredibly repugnant and abhorrent about what should be a natural evolutionary process being fast-tracked and arbitrarily enforced upon all of creation by a being that understands absolutely nothing whatsoever about the "human condition".

But, he didn't design Synthesis, the creators of the Crucible did. 

True enough, but you know how people are. They have to have their God (evolution), and they have to have their Satan (the Catalyst). You getting that vibe? Because I am.

[Steelcan]

Enhanced wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 It's explicitly stated that Sync comes from the Crucile, not the Reapers.


"Add your energy to the Crucible, and (...)"

. Synthesis comes from the Crucible and Citadel working in tandem.

Destroy comes from the Crucible alone, Control from the Citadel.  One is an organic construct the other synthetic. N working in tandem they make Synthesis possible.

Neither the Destroy and Control constucts are part of the Crucible, but they are clearly attached to the Citadel.

. But Destroy is a known function of the Crucible.

[DirtySHISN0]

These threads always end well.

[Eterna]

THe Catalysts Logic is not flawed. You should sit down and think about it for a few more minutes.

[SpamBot2000]

Auld Wulf wrote...

It wouldn't be an end of history. It would be the equivalent of a new Mayan baktun. See, think of it this way. Remember all the apocalyptic talk about 2012? It was interpreted as an 'end of all things,' and a 'great apocalypse to serve as the dusk of mankind.' Further investigation determined it wasn't that at all, but rather it was simply a new chapter.

A Mayan scholar, eh? Well, the thing about 2012 wasn't the turn of the baktun, there's one of those every 4 centuries or so, a baktun being 20 katuns, which in turn are 20 tuns. 

Rather, it was the end of the entire long count cycle.

[Enhanced]

Steelcan wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 It's explicitly stated that Sync comes from the Crucile, not the Reapers.


"Add your energy to the Crucible, and (...)"

. Synthesis comes from the Crucible and Citadel working in tandem.

Destroy comes from the Crucible alone, Control from the Citadel.  One is an organic construct the other synthetic. N working in tandem they make Synthesis possible.

Neither the Destroy and Control constucts are part of the Crucible, but they are clearly attached to the Citadel.

. But Destroy is a known function of the Crucible.

That was it's assumed function. They knew it could be used on the reapers, but no one really knew how it worked.

Modifié par Enhanced, 24 avril 2013 - 07:22 .

[Wayning_Star]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@OP

You're not being very bright about this. We've been "fast tracking" ourselves ever since we could make tools. The first human tools were technically "unnatural" because they exist outside of the animal kingdom. The wheel is abhorrent and repugnant--by your logic--as it stands against nature. The wheel.

Synthesis is the modern equivalent of the wheel. Just... think about it for a little while before snapping back. This is what you're missing, this is where your understanding is lacking. The issue with your flawed reasoning is that you believe that there is some smooth, preordained, god given path to evolution. Every scientist worth her or his salt will tell you that this is not the case. Evolution happens in sudden leaps and jumps, sometimes it even goes backwards.

Evolution is based upon mutation. Intelligence is a mutation. Synthesis is merely a new mutation. There is nothing abhorrent or repugnant about it. You just need to broaden your understanding of what evolution is, and how we work as a species.

the OP is trolling a bit, what with that ooohy gooooy  instance below each post, defining their version of speculation of what 'synthesis' is for them. (the one with graphics of folks being harvested/flash backs of beacon images,etc.)

But the trolling of sorts is the bait and switch. Offer a positive note "synthesis isn't all bad" then hose that down with "but it's all encompassing undemocratic event and unnatural because it's forced evolution.

Evolution is always forced, but not by "one" individual's consideration. In the event of the crucible evocation, it is. A kind of 'instant gratification'. One size fits all. Like I've posted before, its a cheat sheet for nature. A hack for the catalyst and Shepard is holding the key(crucible).

The human condition is presently supporting 'synthesis' as the 'need' for it seems to be relevant. Nobody even asks where their old computer 'junk' goes when it dies(<<pun That forces 'stuff' onto nature and eventually over 'set' amount of years, becomes part of nature(of the human/organic condition?)

The catalyst is an organic computer. Makes sense because that would really confuse it, the 'self' part. Organic sentience has a past, a history. But an organic machine, created out of spare "parts" has "What?", in relation to the human/organic condition. How could it relate, say, to 'family'. This is of course a black hole of speculation.

From general observation of the lorish factuals of the MEU, its hard to say what any actual 'human' would do in the choice department, but the most potent of the choices lends towards synthesis, as it does, in effect, remove the reapers threat as they are absorbed into the human condition. I'm thinking it would actually have to be forced upon those synthetic beings more than it would be rejected by adaptable organic beings, who have existed longer and resolve more often to 'apex' as be a constant of  the 'race' to outer space. Leviathan demanded a cure for the revelation that synthetic life form were more 'potent' than organics, in the fact that organics depend on synthetic 'stuff' to survive and so demand it's existence. Organic, tacitly, demand synthesis to survive their apparent evolution.

What a mess,eh?

[Wayning_Star]

Enhanced wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 It's explicitly stated that Sync comes from the Crucile, not the Reapers.


"Add your energy to the Crucible, and (...)"

. Synthesis comes from the Crucible and Citadel working in tandem.

Destroy comes from the Crucible alone, Control from the Citadel.  One is an organic construct the other synthetic. N working in tandem they make Synthesis possible.

Neither the Destroy and Control constucts are part of the Crucible, but they are clearly attached to the Citadel.

. But Destroy is a known function of the Crucible.

That was it's assumed function. They knew it could be used on the reapers, but no one really knew how it worked.

this made me think that the choices had to come from Shepard, as destroy was the under driven 'cure' for the catalyst/reapership gambit. (I refer to reapers as 'reaperships' for a reason, that being they're the vessel the cat is the captain.) Bioware kind of got on an 'Ark' thingy with those. See Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Eterna5 wrote...

THe Catalysts Logic is not flawed. You should sit down and think about it for a few more minutes.

Explain how it's not flawed.

The more I sit and think about it, really the more absurd it sounds.

[Wayning_Star]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

THe Catalysts Logic is not flawed. You should sit down and think about it for a few more minutes.

Explain how it's not flawed.

The more I sit and think about it, really the more absurd it sounds.

to digress a bit, we don't actually get to talk to it much.. billions of years of observations in a few 'lines' would tend to rupture logic. Especially considering it's "logistics" of foiling chaos and natures directly indirect form of education standards. How long and repugnant time it took to develop opposing thumbs. Brain with two sides, both with separate agenda..etc..

[CDR David Shepard]

His logic is flawed by the fact that the reapers wipe out civilization every 50,000 years...to prevent something he believes is inevitable...

...but how can he know that organic vs synthetic war is inevitable if they have been wiping out civilizations, for who knows how long, to prevent this.

You can't possibly know these things to be a fact if you have been preventing it.

His logic is flawed in that sense.

Modifié par CDR David Shepard, 24 avril 2013 - 07:41 .

[Mangalores]

Auld Wulf wrote...

This forum amazes me, sometimes. Do they not teach any of the sciences in schools any more? Evolution is mutation. To say that Synthesis is repugnant is to say that life is repugnant. We mutate randomly all the time; Our environment changes us; We change ourselves.

What you're seeing as repugnant and abhorrent is human nature. We strive for perfection through mutation.

Please go back to school.

Evolution is natural selection due to environmental conditions over time. Mutations play a role in creating gene variations but are not actually part of what evolutionary theory covers. Evolution is the macro process about the diversification of species and their development, mutations are part of genetics and one effect how new properties can enter a limited gene pool.

Synthesis is also propagated as the end goal of evolution. This is utter nonsense since evolution as a statistical system has no end goal. There is no indication in evolution that multicellular life are the apex species. If we go by resilience, evolutionary speed, spread and age, one celled organisms are since those make up the majority of the biomass of our planet, plancton in particular.

Evolution describes a process in big populations over long periods of time. Mutations happen within one indivdiual and might or might not carry any weight in the evolutionary process, depending of it helping it to outrun sabretooth cats. 

Evolution is nothing magical, at it's core it's Math and even worse it's statistics and stochastic

Modifié par Mangalores, 24 avril 2013 - 07:45 .

[Wayning_Star]

Mangalores wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

This forum amazes me, sometimes. Do they not teach any of the sciences in schools any more? Evolution is mutation. To say that Synthesis is repugnant is to say that life is repugnant. We mutate randomly all the time; Our environment changes us; We change ourselves.

What you're seeing as repugnant and abhorrent is human nature. We strive for perfection through mutation.

Please go back to school.

Evolution is natural selection due to environmental conditions over time. Mutations play a role in creating gene variations but are not actually part of what evolutionary theory covers. Evolution is the macro process about the diversification of species and their development, mutations are part of genetics and one effect how new properties can enter a limited gene pool.

Synthesis is also propagated as the end goal of evolution. This is utter nonsense since evolution as a statistical system has no end goal. There is no indication in evolution that multicellular life are the apex species. If we go by resilience, evolutionary speed, spread and age, one celled organisms are since those make up the majority of the biomass of our planet, plancton in particular.

Evolution describes a process in big populations over long periods of time. Mutations happen within one indivdiual and might or might not carry any weight in the evolutionary process, depending of it helping it to outrun sabretooth cats. 

Evolution is nothing magical, at it's core it's Math and even worse it's statistics and stochastic

then where did organic life start? How did evolution "evolve"? These are the things we need to know!!

[ElSuperGecko]

Enhanced wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
But Destroy is a known function of the Crucible.

That was it's assumed function. They knew it could be used on the reapers, but no one really knew how it worked.

Destroy was the Crucible's intended function.  Everyone working on the Crucible project had the motive of destroying the Reapers.  Control may have been an intended function, given what we know about indoctrinated Prothean elements looking to use it for such purposes.

Synthesis was never described as an intended function - the suggestion comes from the Catalyst and the Catalyst alone, and as we know, the Catyalyst's logic and reasoning is flawed.

Eterna5 wrote...
THe Catalysts Logic is not flawed. You should sit down and think about it for a few more minutes.

I like the way you don't attempt to refute any of the points in the OP (because youy can't, not at least without coming off as a prize tool), but instead tie your rebuttal up in an insult and act like it's the undisputed word of God.

No surprise, really, since you appear to accept the Catalys'ts logic as the undisputed word of God, even though it's proven within the game itself to be anything but.  Irrational blind faith begets irrational blind faith.

[Wayning_Star]

CDR David Shepard wrote...

His logic is flawed by the fact that the reapers wipe out civilization every 50,000 years...to prevent something he believes is inevitable...

...but how can he know that organic vs synthetic war is inevitable if they have been wiping out civilizations, for who knows how long, to prevent this.

You can't possibly know these things to be a fact if you have been preventing it.

His logic is flawed in that sense.

it's not so bad now, but if we were to just 'turn off' all things technology "right now" and fathom that, as with civilization..the logic takes a neat and curious turn?

[SpamBot2000]

Wayning_Star wrote...

then where did organic life start? How did evolution "evolve"? These are the things we need to know!!

Well duh. Robogod created it, so that we could eventually get synthesis, through the Sacrifice of the Shepard. If you don't believe that, you must be a stupid, cowardly person living in a cave, like those awful Croods. 

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 24 avril 2013 - 07:56 .

[Wayning_Star]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

then where did organic life start? How did evolution "evolve"? These are the things we need to know!!

Well duh. Robogod created it, so that we could eventually get synthesis. If you don't believe that, you must be a stupid, cowardly person living in a cave, like The Croods. 

Rofl.. temper Templar..

[Wayning_Star]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
But Destroy is a known function of the Crucible.

That was it's assumed function. They knew it could be used on the reapers, but no one really knew how it worked.

Destroy was the Crucible's intended function.  Everyone working on the Crucible project had the motive of destroying the Reapers.  Control may have been an intended function, given what we know about indoctrinated Prothean elements looking to use it for such purposes.

Synthesis was never described as an intended function - the suggestion comes from the Catalyst and the Catalyst alone, and as we know, the Catyalyst's logic and reasoning is flawed.

Eterna5 wrote...
THe Catalysts Logic is not flawed. You should sit down and think about it for a few more minutes.

I like the way you don't attempt to refute any of the points in the OP (because youy can't, not at least without coming off as a prize tool), but instead tie your rebuttal up in an insult and act like it's the undisputed word of God.

No surprise, really, since you appear to accept the Catalys'ts logic as the undisputed word of God, even though it's proven within the game itself to be anything but.  Irrational blind faith begets irrational blind faith.

the actually tragically funny cynical part of that is that the Alliance didn't have the first clue as to what the crucible would do and still 'went with it' and apparently the catalyst, after Shep gains audience with it.

Factually joining forces with the catalyst to upend the reaperships guided by the catalyst. Talk about dependency of the organics on technology. No wonder the cat figured out that the organics, in a run for Apex, wouldn't stand a chance,eh?