201 réponses à ce sujet

[thehomeworld]

Really so brainwashing and rewriting everyone's DNA geth style is no problem?

[Phatose]

Brainwashing is a unsupported assumption. Deciding on someone else's DNA - not a problem at all. Status quo.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I am impressed by the number of Dr. Mengeles who think arbitrarily changing the entire galaxy's DNA is just fine as another experiment of our Catalyst. I just wonder what is next? How far will people go?

[Xilizhra]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Tibbur wrote...

Yes just imagine all the praetorians etc who gain sentience back and them trying to fit into society.

Hey little girl we found your mommy. Banshee walks through the door.

 Nothing says or shows that they gain sentience, so I'll just assume that they don't. 

Keiji's gray box gains sapience FFS. The husks gain it too. Give me a break. They gain awareness in the battle on Earth.

Honestly? I found that scene beautiful. I felt a twinge of parental affection there; new life, that I've brought about. Welcome to the universe.

Fortunately, they seem to lack distinguishing features, so the odds that there'll be any issues with awkward loved one reunions seem low.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 avril 2013 - 01:38 .

[PsyrenY]

thehomeworld wrote...

Really so brainwashing and rewriting everyone's DNA geth style is no problem?

Brainwashing? Citation needed.

[AlexMBrennan]

Brainwashing? Citation needed.

Conflicts have a certain amount of momentum - we keep killing them because they killed some of our guys last time, etc. In the synthesis ending, all fighting ceases immediately.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Xilizhra wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Tibbur wrote...

Yes just imagine all the praetorians etc who gain sentience back and them trying to fit into society.

Hey little girl we found your mommy. Banshee walks through the door.

 Nothing says or shows that they gain sentience, so I'll just assume that they don't. 

Keiji's gray box gains sapience FFS. The husks gain it too. Give me a break. They gain awareness in the battle on Earth.

Honestly? I found that scene beautiful. I felt a twinge of parental affection there; new life, that I've brought about. Welcome to the universe.

Fortunately, they seem to lack distinguishing features, so the odds that there'll be any issues with awkward loved one reunions seem low.

Really? I really can't believe you're serious about this. You've got to be trolling the forum. Seriously? You're as bad as Seival. <_< I'm calling bull**** because you seem intelligent. Seival is just ... well... Seival.

You would have violated my body, violated my privacy by interconnecting me with the reapers which I despise, and now interconnecting me with the Intelligence that controls the reapers (oh, it survives Synthesis and still controls the reapers -- and now by that interconnection can control us, so thank you.). It knows what we are thinking. It knows when we're awake. It knows when we are sleeping. It knows when we are having impure thoughts. And you did this so you could save those nice innocent soft cuddly sweet reapers from being destroyed. Isn't that nice.

Really? I'm so glad this was only a game, but I'm calling BS on you. I think you're trolling.

[Xilizhra]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Tibbur wrote...

Yes just imagine all the praetorians etc who gain sentience back and them trying to fit into society.

Hey little girl we found your mommy. Banshee walks through the door.

 Nothing says or shows that they gain sentience, so I'll just assume that they don't. 

Keiji's gray box gains sapience FFS. The husks gain it too. Give me a break. They gain awareness in the battle on Earth.

Honestly? I found that scene beautiful. I felt a twinge of parental affection there; new life, that I've brought about. Welcome to the universe.

Fortunately, they seem to lack distinguishing features, so the odds that there'll be any issues with awkward loved one reunions seem low.

Really? I really can't believe you're serious about this. You've got to be trolling the forum. Seriously? You're as bad as Seival. <_< I'm calling bull**** because you seem intelligent. Seival is just ... well... Seival.

You would have violated my body, violated my privacy by interconnecting me with the reapers which I despise, and now interconnecting me with the Intelligence that controls the reapers (oh, it survives Synthesis and still controls the reapers -- and now by that interconnection can control us, so thank you.). It knows what we are thinking. It knows when we're awake. It knows when we are sleeping. It knows when we are having impure thoughts. And you did this so you could save those nice innocent soft cuddly sweet reapers from being destroyed. Isn't that nice.

Really? I'm so glad this was only a game, but I'm calling BS on you. I think you're trolling.

Actually, I found  choosing Synthesis to be unsatisfying, because the Catalyst's description of it was... so extremely vague, and I couldn't find a real IC reason to think that its unity had the best interests of organics at heart any more than its preservation did. Canonically, I'm staying with Control for the time being.

However, I don't kill if it's unnecessary, unless they're actively begging me for death. There was another option here apart from Destroy (quite apart from wiping out all synthetic life as well), and so I took it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 avril 2013 - 02:09 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
You have a major hate-on for Synthesis, but have no clear idea of what it actually does. You appear to be interpreting things in the worst way possible, despite the fact that they're less likely to actually have happened.

Possibly the single most hilariously ironic statement I've ever seen you make Xilizhra (and the field in that regard isn't exactly small), considering that it can just as easily be applied to your own line of thinking.

You yourself have no clear idea of what Synthesis actually does.  You just think you do, and appear to be interpreting things in the most desperately hopeful way possible - and in doing so you choose to naively ignore the in-game fasts as presented throughout the Mass Effect series - simply because you dislike making difficult decisions.  You blind yourself to the truth of what you're doing because you want a happy ending.

[Xilizhra]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
You have a major hate-on for Synthesis, but have no clear idea of what it actually does. You appear to be interpreting things in the worst way possible, despite the fact that they're less likely to actually have happened.

Possibly the single most hilariously ironic statement I've ever seen you make Xilizhra (and the field in that regard isn't exactly small), considering that it can just as easily be applied to your own line of thinking.

You yourself have no clear idea of what Synthesis actually does.  You just think you do, and appear to be interpreting things in the most desperately hopeful way possible - and in doing so you choose to naively ignore the in-game fasts as presented throughout the Mass Effect series - simply because you dislike making difficult decisions.  You blind yourself to the truth of what you're doing because you want a happy ending.

True. Synthesis' incredible vagueness means that interpretation is vital. That said, I believe that the general tone of the ending is more in keeping with my own interpretation than yours (and you still haven't explained what you think Synthesis does).

But it doesn't matter that much, as I generally pick Control anyway.

[Kataphrut94]

I would say of synthesis "Don't knock it 'til you've tried it". And when I say that, I don't mean choosing it at the end or even watching the EC cutscene on Youtube (though you should because the music is lovely). I mean that until you've actually had your DNA transmogrified into a partly synthetic state, you can't judge whether it is a beautiful stage of evolutionary transcendence, an abhorrent desecration of all life or anything in-between.

Since we do not live in a cyberpunk dystopia, that knowledge is sadly out of our reach. We have to make do with what we know. Considering that everyone in the galaxy appears to be coping well, the Reapers are working hard to repay their debt to society and robot sex is now socially acceptable, I'd say it works out well.

It must be ironic for the salarians. After all, they only agreed to help with the Crucible if the krogan would be kept sterile and in the end the Crucible cures them anyway.

[tamperous]

I hate synthesis (and the ending) because it goes against everything that went before in the series.

Ie "Individuals have free will and should be allowed to choose their own path"

So in the end Shepard ascends to godhood and chooses Genocide, Absolute Despotism or Non-consensual genetic modification for everyone in the galaxy.

[Enhanced]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Tibbur wrote...

Yes just imagine all the praetorians etc who gain sentience back and them trying to fit into society.

Hey little girl we found your mommy. Banshee walks through the door.

 Nothing says or shows that they gain sentience, so I'll just assume that they don't. 

Keiji's gray box gains sapience FFS. The husks gain it too. Give me a break. They gain awareness in the battle on Earth.

lol Keiji's graybox isn't  the same as a mindless reaper unit. The husk that is shown just stops attacking like the Catalyst said they would. 

Modifié par Enhanced, 26 avril 2013 - 01:14 .

[Kataphrut94]

tamperous wrote...

I hate synthesis (and the ending) because it goes against everything that went before in the series.

Ie "Individuals have free will and should be allowed to choose their own path"

So in the end Shepard ascends to godhood and chooses Genocide, Absolute Despotism or Non-consensual genetic modification for everyone in the galaxy.

And then people can go right back to having free will and being allowed to choose their own path. Unless Shepard chose genocide, in which case only the survivors will have that luxury.

[Indy_S]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

And then people can go right back to having free will and being allowed to choose their own path. Unless Shepard chose genocide, in which case only the survivors will have that luxury.

Alas, sometimes the plant must be pruned so the weed smothering it can be removed. And when the new growth springs up, it will have more freedom than the others.

[Mangalores]

Phatose wrote...

Brainwashing is a unsupported assumption. Deciding on someone else's DNA - not a problem at all. Status quo.

Only way to enforce "understanding" between organics and synthetics. Since understanding is a cognitive trait you have to screw with someone's brain to make them do it regardless of their actual thinking aka prevent independant thinking.

So I can sign you up for a gene therapy against your will then? I want you to glow green, which is funnily enough the one thing scientists know to reliable gene splice into random animals (take a gene from a jellyfish and put it in a rabbit => glowing rabbit). It's entirely harmless and you are less likely to get hit by a car at night.

Modifié par Mangalores, 26 avril 2013 - 01:17 .

[Phatose]

Mangalores wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Brainwashing is a unsupported assumption. Deciding on someone else's DNA - not a problem at all. Status quo.

Only way to enforce "understanding" between organics and synthetics. Since understanding is a cognitive trait you have to screw with someone's brain to make them do it regardless of their actual thinking aka prevent independant thinking.

So I can sign you up for a gene therapy against your will then? I want you to glow green, which is funnily enough the one thing scientists know to reliable gene splice into random animals (take a gene from a jellyfish and put it in a rabbit => glowing rabbit). It's entirely harmless and you are less likely to get hit by a car at night.

There are many ways to "screw with someone's brain".  Reading a book, for instance.  It does not  require brainwashing to alter how someone thinks.

And yes, you can, provided it's to save the galaxy.

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
True. Synthesis' incredible vagueness means that interpretation is vital. That said, I believe that the general tone of the ending is more in keeping with my own interpretation than yours

O RLY?

Xilizhra wrote...
(and you still haven't explained what you think Synthesis does).

So, you don't know what my interpretation of Synthesis is, but you think your own interpretation is more realistic regardless?  Kudos to you.  And people call Destroy supporters closed-minded.

For the record - I don't pretend to know what Synthesis does, how it works, the effects it has on the citizens of the galaxy (whether instant, short term or long term), whether it leads to galactic peace, whether it actually solves the as-yet hypothetical synthetic/organic conflict or simply creates new conflicts.

I don't pretend to know because I don't know.  It's impossible to know.  All you can do is speculate and interpret the few little miniscule tidbits of information we are given.  Which - when the concepts within the endings are this vaguely defined - basically amounts to nothing more self-serving headcanon.

But - once again - you are attempting to use the unplanned, unintended fan-service Extended Cut epilogues to justify the decision you have your Shepard make.  You are choosing based on what you know happens afterwards.  Which is all well and good if you think your Shepard is prophetic or simply want to cheat, but as I prefer to actually ROLEPLAY my Shepard.  I judge the final choices on what we actually know when MAKING the final decision.  And, as outlined in my OP, I find any suggestion for a solution from the Catalyst to be abhorrent given what we know about:

• The cycle of extinction
  
• The Reapers
  
• Indoctrination and Reaper manipulation of organics
  
• The fate of previous cycles
  
• The fate of the Protheans
  
• The creation and purpose of the Catalyst
  
• The methods and logic of the Catalyst
  
• The actions of the Catalyst

Everything we learn about the enemy throughout the entire trilogy leads me to consider Synthesis to be nothing more than a remarkably bad idea.  The same with Control.  I argue with TIM - based on what we actually KNOW about the Reapers and their methods - for 20 minutes that attempting Control will lead to nothing but disaster, and 20 seconds of platitudes from the creator of beings that have an established history of toying with people's ambition is not going to change my mind.

If Control is hypocrisy, then Synthesis is simply surrender; you take the Catalyst at it's word.  You accept it's faulty logic, you embrace it's flawed "perfect solution" and place the final decision about the galaxy's future back in the hands of a being what has systematically exterminated all advanced organic life for billions of years.  Synthesis was not your idea, it never will be.  You don't understand what will happen, all you can do is hope.

Kataphrut94 wrote...
We have to make do with what we know at the time Shepard makes his/her final decision.

Fixed for you.

Kataphrut94 wrote...
Considering that everyone in the galaxy appears to be coping well, the Reapers are working hard to repay their debt to society and robot sex is now socially acceptable, I'd say it works out well.

Which would be an example of self-serving headcanon, as outlined above.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 26 avril 2013 - 01:30 .

[Mangalores]

Phatose wrote...

...

There are many ways to "screw with someone's brain".  Reading a book, for instance.  It does not  require brainwashing to alter how someone thinks.

...

We cannot agree on the outcome about the very same video game and you think such an approach is a sure way to alter someone's understanding like the Catalyst implies? The only ways to alter someone's understanding I know off were invented as early as the 19th century and are all illegal and considered felonies today.


EDIT: And none said anything about conditions. I sign you up because I say so. That's how much say you get on the matter.

Modifié par Mangalores, 26 avril 2013 - 01:32 .

[Phatose]

It is given information, not enforced anything.

If you don't know of any other ways to alter someone's understanding, why are we having this discussion? Is you goal not to alter other people's understanding when you post?

And, no, it's not OK. Not because modifying my genes is innately unacceptable, but because your reasons are stupid.

[Xilizhra]

Everything we learn about the enemy throughout the entire trilogy leads me to consider Synthesis to be nothing more than a remarkably bad idea. The same with Control. I argue with TIM - based on what we actually KNOW about the Reapers and their methods - for 20 minutes that attempting Control will lead to nothing but disaster, and 20 seconds of platitudes from the creator of beings that have an established history of toying with people's ambition is not going to change my mind.

I never actually argued with him about Control being a bad idea, just that he couldn't pull it off personally, and that he was an idiot for weakening us with infighting.

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
I never actually argued with him about Control being a bad idea, just that he couldn't pull it off personally, and that he was an idiot for weakening us with infighting.

Well, on that at least we can agree!

[Xilizhra]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I never actually argued with him about Control being a bad idea, just that he couldn't pull it off personally, and that he was an idiot for weakening us with infighting.

Well, on that at least we can agree!

Fear not. I don't intend to actually maintain control forever, it was mostly a stopgap because it was the decision that inflicted the fewest direct changes on the galaxy. I'm just holding down the fort until I know which Reapers will be safe to free, and until I can implement Synthesis, albeit not instantaneously and not through the Crucible.

[Auld Wulf]

Xilizhra wrote...

I never actually argued with him about Control being a bad idea, just that he couldn't pull it off personally, and that he was an idiot for weakening us with infighting.

Exactly. If an individual is flawed, uncreative, and limited (as many are), it doesn't mean that the idea can't be achieved at all. It just means that the creature responsible is unable to realise the idea. We have big ideas ourselves, many scientists actually want something like Synthesis to happen. Whether it happens or not though will depend on whether we can get past our limitations and our basic, luddite-esque thinking.

I liked that TIM didn't want to destroy the Reapers, that's primal fear-based folly. That's thinking with your lower, animal brain rather than using your intellect. There are so many threats out there that destroying the Reapers would only lead to the destruction/enslavement of everyone. The Reapers provide a great line of defence against that, so on that I tended to agree with him as well. But TIM was limited by his racist views and his own avarice, he was a very small man with very large ideas. His smallness wouldn't allow him to realise those ideas, which is why he ended up as a puppet of the Reapers.

The smallness of TIM in general though doesn't mean that an idea is bad, simply that the person is incapable of realising it. When it comes to the Singularity, I think around 90% of humanity wouldn't even be able to imagine what that would be like -- you'd have to be grounded in science and you'd have to be a very imaginative person to even get a feel for that. Most people just prefer to live in today, and believe that the world will never change. That was TIM's problem, too. In Mass Effect we now live in a galaxy filled with aliens where humans are no longer the dominant force of lilfe. TIM couldn't deal with that realisation.

Every primal fear you have that keeps you in a box of familiarity increases your personal smallness. It doesn't mean however that you can't have the occasional spark of brilliance, or the odd right idea. It just means that if you are a small creature, then you won't ultimately be able to ever realise those ideas. It'll take a bigger person to be able to do that, to take those ideas and run with them, to make them a reality. I, for example, preferred the Geth view of wanting organic and synthetic oneness and understanding. The Geth could not achieve this, but Shepard did (with Synthesis).

I think a lot of the issue with our race today is that we let our lower brain, our base, animal, instinctive brain do too much of our thinking for us, we rely on impulsive reactions, knee jerking, and primal fears rather than actually approaching things intellectually. Things like Synthesis, transhumanism, and the Singularity are not to be feared. But they'd upset the status quo of nature, thus the animal brain fears them in a very absolute way, since all the animal part of a human understands is nature, and the understanding goes no further than that.

We humans mutated the ability to think intellectually. It's about time we started using that regularly.

[Xilizhra]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I never actually argued with him about Control being a bad idea, just that he couldn't pull it off personally, and that he was an idiot for weakening us with infighting.

Exactly. If an individual is flawed, uncreative, and limited (as many are), it doesn't mean that the idea can't be achieved at all. It just means that the creature responsible is unable to realise the idea. We have big ideas ourselves, many scientists actually want something like Synthesis to happen. Whether it happens or not though will depend on whether we can get past our limitations and our basic, luddite-esque thinking.

I liked that TIM didn't want to destroy the Reapers, that's primal fear-based folly. That's thinking with your lower, animal brain rather than using your intellect. There are so many threats out there that destroying the Reapers would only lead to the destruction/enslavement of everyone. The Reapers provide a great line of defence against that, so on that I tended to agree with him as well. But TIM was limited by his racist views and his own avarice, he was a very small man with very large ideas. His smallness wouldn't allow him to realise those ideas, which is why he ended up as a puppet of the Reapers.

The smallness of TIM in general though doesn't mean that an idea is bad, simply that the person is incapable of realising it. When it comes to the Singularity, I think around 90% of humanity wouldn't even be able to imagine what that would be like -- you'd have to be grounded in science and you'd have to be a very imaginative person to even get a feel for that. Most people just prefer to live in today, and believe that the world will never change. That was TIM's problem, too. In Mass Effect we now live in a galaxy filled with aliens where humans are no longer the dominant force of lilfe. TIM couldn't deal with that realisation.

Every primal fear you have that keeps you in a box of familiarity increases your personal smallness. It doesn't mean however that you can't have the occasional spark of brilliance, or the odd right idea. It just means that if you are a small creature, then you won't ultimately be able to ever realise those ideas. It'll take a bigger person to be able to do that, to take those ideas and run with them, to make them a reality. I, for example, preferred the Geth view of wanting organic and synthetic oneness and understanding. The Geth could not achieve this, but Shepard did (with Synthesis).

I think a lot of the issue with our race today is that we let our lower brain, our base, animal, instinctive brain do too much of our thinking for us, we rely on impulsive reactions, knee jerking, and primal fears rather than actually approaching things intellectually. Things like Synthesis, transhumanism, and the Singularity are not to be feared. But they'd upset the status quo of nature, thus the animal brain fears them in a very absolute way, since all the animal part of a human understands is nature, and the understanding goes no further than that.

We humans mutated the ability to think intellectually. It's about time we started using that regularly.

I do not, on the whole, disagree. However, while we should certainly avoid genocide, I'm somewhat leery of Synthesis because of the bad description, and because it's not really my Shepard's job to conduct a technological singularity, just to stop the cycle. That might be more the domain of actual scientists, than one soldier who got stuck in one incredibly pivotal moment.