201 réponses à ce sujet

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
Viewer, i.e. reality, is all that matters here. I don't really care if my Shepard is viewed as a villain, as long as she does good for the galaxy.

And so we get right down to the crux of  it - you don't care what anyone else thinks, only what you think.... and you are just one person, and one person can quite easily be wrong.

[Xilizhra]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Viewer, i.e. reality, is all that matters here. I don't really care if my Shepard is viewed as a villain, as long as she does good for the galaxy.

And so we get right down to the crux of  it - you don't care what anyone else thinks, only what you think.... and you are just one person, and one person can quite easily be wrong.

Oh, no, I care a great deal about what other people think. I just don't care as much what they think about me. I certainly care about their welfare, if their lives are going well, how many loved ones I've been able to save, that sort of thing; it's just that I don't personally need good PR, necessarily, to do good (but I believe I'll have it anyway, for the most part).

[Enhanced]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Enhanced wrote...
After reading ElSuperGecko posts, I understand. He's trying to tell us that his "Self serving personal interpretation and headcanon!" is better than ours.

...which would be a fine rebuttal if I'd actually posted any headcanon or personal interpretations of the endings.

But I haven't actually done that, have I?

But don't worry, I understand.  You dislike having your self-serving personal interpretation and headcanon called into question, because it makes you feel insecure.  So you palmwave any arguments that don't fit your own agenda.

And people call Destroy supporters close-minded! 

You do realize that your OP is mostly opinions, right.

[Argentoid]

Synthesis is the final evolution of life. No more struggle for reaching it. No meaning of life.

Yes, it's abhorrent.

[ElSuperGecko]

Enhanced wrote...
You do realize that your OP is mostly opinions, right.

Of course I do, I've posted these thoughts on an internet forum, I thought that would be self evident.  What's your point?

[Enhanced]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Enhanced wrote...
You do realize that your OP is mostly opinions, right.

Of course I do, I've posted these thoughts on an internet forum, I thought that would be self evident.  What's your point?

They are nothing but headcanon and your interpretations of the endings, even though you think they aren't.

[ElSuperGecko]

Enhanced wrote...
They are nothing but headcanon and your interpretations of the endings, even though you think they aren't.

LOL, nice try, but no.

The OP is opinion based on in game evidence and facts.  No headcanon required.  And I reference the endings ONLY in terms of my character's thought process when presented with the final decision - I haven't made any interpretion of the actual endings at all, because they're irrelevant when it comes to the final decision-making process.

But don't let my simple thought experiment dissuade you from your infantile attempts at trollery...

[dorktainian]

Argentoid wrote...

Synthesis is the final evolution of life. No more struggle for reaching it. No meaning of life.

Yes, it's abhorrent.

   

everything here in this youtube vid is spot on.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Argentoid]

dorktainian wrote...

Argentoid wrote...

Synthesis is the final evolution of life. No more struggle for reaching it. No meaning of life.

Yes, it's abhorrent.

   

everything here in this youtube vid is spot on.

www.youtube.com/watch

I was already subscribed to Smudboy. 

This is probably one of his best analysis so far.

Modifié par Argentoid, 29 avril 2013 - 03:03 .

[Enhanced]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Enhanced wrote...
They are nothing but headcanon and your interpretations of the endings, even though you think they aren't.

LOL, nice try, but no.

The OP is opinion based on in game evidence and facts.  No headcanon required.  And I reference the endings ONLY in terms of my character's thought process when presented with the final decision - I haven't made any interpretion of the actual endings at all, because they're irrelevant when it comes to the final decision-making process.

But don't let my simple thought experiment dissuade you from your infantile attempts at trollery...

Really? Well, you may want to edit your first 2 paragraphs. Your opinion is that synthesis is the Catalyst's own solution and that it will "end up becoming horror".  That's not based on what's in the game.

These are facts: As you can clearly see, there is not a console or tube pre-built into the Citadel for Synthesis, but there is for Control and Destroy. Synthesis is the result Shepard adding his/her energy directly to the Crucible's beam. The Catalyst didn't create Crucible and did not want it to dock with the Citadel. He tried to destroy the designs. He says that the Crucible changed him and created new possibilities. 

Modifié par Enhanced, 29 avril 2013 - 04:18 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Enhanced wrote...
Really? Well, you may want to edit your first 2 paragraphs. Your opinion is that synthesis is the Catalyst's own solution and that it will "end up becoming horror".  That's not based on what's in the game.

I don't need to edit anything, because that opinion IS based - very specifically - on what is in the game.

-  The Catalyst is - so far as we know - responsible for the creation of the Reapers and the cycle of extinction.  I believe this to be a fact - but even if it isn't, the Catalyst presents itself in this manner.
-  The Reapers manipulate organics to do their will.  This is a fact.
-  Synthesis is espoused by no-one within the confines of the game other than the Catalyst.  ONLY the Catalyst suggests Synthesis as a course of action.  This is a fact.

What I know about the Reapers, and what I learn during the Catalyst conversation about the being that (alledgedly) created them leads me to believe that Synthesis will end up being no better than the cycle of extinction was before it.  This is opinion, based on the above facts.

These are facts: As you can clearly see, there is not a console or tube pre-built into the Citadel for Synthesis, but there is for Control and Destroy. Synthesis is the result Shepard adding his/her energy directly to the Crucible's beam. The Catalyst didn't create Crucible and did not want it to dock with the Citadel. He tried to destroy the design plans. He says that the Crucible changes him and created new possibilities. 

LOL, now you're attempting to prove your argument by assigning arbitrary values to the "Control" console and the "Destroy" tube?  You don't have the faintest idea HOW they're supposed to work, yet you want them to support your case?  They're not facts, they're speculation and headcanon.  Here's some more speculation and headcanon.

As you can clearly see, in order to choose the Destroy ending, you SHOOT AND DESTROY a tube on the Citadel.  This tube is a creation of the Catalyst, and is intended to block the Crucible's firing mechanism and turn the Crucible's energy into the Synthesis beam.  It's destruction allows the Crucible to fulfil it's original, intended purpose and fire, destroying the Reapers.

See?  Just as valid an interpretation for how the decision chamber mechanisms work as yours, and just as inherently unprovable.  But I don't rely on headcanon , so let's look at an actual fact:

The Crucible was built based on designs found on Mars by the Alliance and the Council's top scientists, engineers, researchers and physicists.  NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM attributed the potential for Synthesis to the Crucible, NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM suggested it as a possible function.  The ONLY one who did was the Catalyst - and as we know from the above facts, the Catalyst's motives, logic and calculations are untrustworthy at best, a horror at worst.

[Xilizhra]

The Crucible was built based on designs found on Mars by the Alliance and the Council's top scientists, engineers, researchers and physicists. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM attributed the potential for Synthesis to the Crucible, NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM suggested it as a possible function. The ONLY one who did was the Catalyst - and as we know from the above facts, the Catalyst's motives, logic and calculations are untrustworthy at best, a horror at worst.

Actually, none of them knew what it did, only that it could fire huge loads of energy across the galaxy. They didn't know what the energy would actually do, they just assumed it'd be for destruction, as it's the most intuitively obvious possibility.

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, none of them knew what it did, only that it could fire huge loads of energy across the galaxy. They didn't know what the energy would actually do, they just assumed it'd be for destruction, as it's the most intuitively obvious possibility.

So you're saying that intention plays absolutely no part in the design and manufacture process?  That people just blindly build things, and they just, y'know, do stuff, stuff they'd never even thought of?

The final function of the Crucible was unknown, true - and would be until it was finally fired - HOWEVER, the basic principles and concepts of the Crucible were understood ("Massive in scope, but elegant and simple in design").  the INTENTION of everyone working on the Crucible was to build a device that would destroy or otherwise stop the Reapers - not to radically and fundamentally alter the nature of all life in the galaxy.

For emphasis:  the INTENT was to build a WEAPON that could DESTROY or OTHERWISE STOP the Reapers.  DESTROY or STOP the REAPERS.

NOT to TARGET and FUNDAMENTALLY ALTER ALL FORMS OF LIFE.

The ONLY being that showed interest in using the Crucible's power for that particular function was the Catalyst.  It's "solution" - Synthesis - is to use our own weapon on ourselves.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 29 avril 2013 - 04:38 .

[Xilizhra]

So you're saying that intention plays absolutely no part in the design and manufacture process? That people just blindly build things, and they just, y'know, do stuff, stuff they'd never even thought of?

Kind of, yes. The Crucible is in part self-building, it looks like, or at least possesses some means to guide its builders, and no one truly knew what it did. Hackett mentions this once or twice.
Also, who knows what the original builders of the Crucible wanted to do? Everyone else just followed their blueprint and added things.

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
Kind of, yes. The Crucible is in part self-building, it looks like, or at least possesses some means to guide its builders, and no one truly knew what it did. Hackett mentions this once or twice.
Also, who knows what the original builders of the Crucible wanted to do? Everyone else just followed their blueprint and added things.

Scarily, there is a very real prospect that the Crucible may just be another Reaper trap.


Sovereign:  "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."

In which case, the only sensible option would be Refuse... if it had been implemented as a choice in the original shipped game.

However, in the absence of information on the Crucible and it's origins, we have to assign some degree of trust.  But who do we trust?  I choose the builders of the Crucible, and trust that their intent (and the assets I acquired during the course of the game) are enough to fulfil the desired purpose.

Some may prefer to choose the Catalyst; that's up to them I guess.

[Xilizhra]

However, in the absence of information on the Crucible and it's origins, we have to assign some degree of trust. But who do we trust? I choose the builders of the Crucible, and trust that their intent (and the assets I acquired during the course of the game) are enough to fulfil the desired purpose.

Alas, you don't know who built the Crucible, or what their intentions were. Just the ones who added to it and assembled the primary product.

[Enhanced]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Enhanced wrote...
Really? Well, you may want to edit your first 2 paragraphs. Your opinion is that synthesis is the Catalyst's own solution and that it will "end up becoming horror".  That's not based on what's in the game.

I don't need to edit anything, because that opinion IS based - very specifically - on what is in the game.

-  The Catalyst is - so far as we know - responsible for the creation of the Reapers and the cycle of extinction.  I believe this to be a fact - but even if it isn't, the Catalyst presents itself in this manner.
-  The Reapers manipulate organics to do their will.  This is a fact.
-  Synthesis is espoused by no-one within the confines of the game other than the Catalyst.  ONLY the Catalyst suggests Synthesis as a course of action.  This is a fact.

What I know about the Reapers, and what I learn during the Catalyst conversation about the being that (alledgedly) created them leads me to believe that Synthesis will end up being no better than the cycle of extinction was before it.  This is opinion, based on the above facts.

These are facts: As you can clearly see, there is not a console or tube pre-built into the Citadel for Synthesis, but there is for Control and Destroy. Synthesis is the result Shepard adding his/her energy directly to the Crucible's beam. The Catalyst didn't create Crucible and did not want it to dock with the Citadel. He tried to destroy the design plans. He says that the Crucible changes him and created new possibilities. 

LOL, now you're attempting to prove your argument by assigning arbitrary values to the "Control" console and the "Destroy" tube?  You don't have the faintest idea HOW they're supposed to work, yet you want them to support your case?  They're not facts, they're speculation and headcanon.  Here's some more speculation and headcanon.

I didn't assign any arbitrary values to it. I just posted what we can see and what the Catalyst says during the conversation. This discussion is pointless if you are going to continue to deny what really is in the game and call it speculation/headcanon.

Modifié par Enhanced, 29 avril 2013 - 05:24 .

[knightnblu]

I couldn't agree with you more. What is revealing is the denial of people who stand behind synthesis on feelings alone. They have a pre-conceived notion that they favor and to hell with any other consideration. Many human beings no longer apply critical thinking or logic as the tools used to arrive at a solution to a problem. We feel and form opinions based purely on an emotional response and then the act on those feelings and the consequences for everyone else be damned. They call the vanquishing of the enemy genocide and sympathize with the instruments of death and destruction and call them friends and look to save them. If you challenge their delusion they become immediately hostile, engaging in ad hominem and vitriol. This is because they can defend their opinion in no other fashion and to acknowledge that they are in error is to admit that they are flawed.

I have opined that if rape is the physical violation of the self is wrong, then the violation of the essence of the self is a far worse offense. For what else does synthesis do, but to forever alter the essence of one's self? Even if one subscribes to the concept of dualism, the body still reflects the spirit. So what happens when the body no longer accurately reflects the individual who inhabits it? What happens should the identity who inhabits the mind finds that it is a prisoner locked in a prison from which there is no escape until death? The situation becomes far worse if the Cartesian idea of the soul is wrong.

Imagine that you are an atheist and that you do not believe in any of this God nonsense. That you have a soul is equally ridiculous and is just another example of supernatural thinking. If you select synthesis then there is no question that you are raping the very essence of life. By choosing synthesis you forever alter the very essence of life itself and you do so for no greater reason than because you can.

It isn't as if there are no other options and you were left with only one way to go. In fact, you had three other options that didn't prescribe the rape of all life in the galaxy. What's worse is that these people's fantasy never recognizes what they are really doing. They say that Control is a God trip, that Destroy is genocide, and that Refusal is just too horrible to even consider. Some have even argued that the Dr. Mengele's of the Catalyst would make good friends and construction workers and have implied that justice is served because now we are the Catalyst in Synthesis.

While they may get all exited by that Kumbaya moment, it ignores the truth. The Catalyst is not gone, the killers who did the dirty work go unpunished, and the galaxy is victimized even further by their hands. What is telling about human nature is that none of them ever stop and really analyze why they do what they do. That would foul up the feelings don't you know? It has to be feelings because there is no basis established to support trust.

The Catalyst and the Reapers use deception and lies. Sovereign lied to you directly and the Reapers used the deception of peace talks to lure in the leaders. Just ten minutes before you meet the Catalyst, he and his buddies are doing their very best to end your life. He tells you that his solution will no longer work, but he never calls off his dogs does he? If you select Refuse he keeps on killing doesn't he? I thought he said that his solution will no longer work? Why's he killing everybody? Out of spite?

Go a step further. He betrayed his own creators and hunted them like animals and rendered their bodies down to it's base components and stuck them in a tin can like a deer head on the wall of a hunter. He set up the galaxy to run on a 50K year extinction cycle so that he could more efficiently wipe out advanced civilization. He defies the natural order by abridging the third law of thermodynamics, i.e. the imposition of order over chaos thus truncating evolution and preventing it from ever completing it's work. Only he fails.

He fails to complete the eradication of his creators, he fails to eradicate the Crucible, he fails to fully understand and comprehend organics, and he fails to grasp that nature cannot be denied for eternity. Yet he does what he does over, and over, and over again expecting to one day achieve his prime directive, the preservation of life. But he fails at that as well. He is essentially stuck on rinse, wash, repeat.

The truth of the matter is that there is no basis for trust. The Catalyst has you at a disadvantage and he knows it. That is why everybody squawked when Shepard blindly trusted him in the OE and was willing to do whatever he said without question in direct violation of his established character.

The Catalyst does not preserve life, he rapes it just as surely as Synthesis rapes it. He preserves life no more that I would preserve water by breaking down it's chemical bonds and storing the released oxygen and hydrogen gasses. What is left from the Catalyst's "mercy" is nothing more than a pale shadow of what once was. The only conclusion that can be drawn from these facts is that the Catalyst does not have an organic's best interests at heart.

That is the truth that those who prefer Synthesize will never recognize.

[Xilizhra]

I have opined that if rape is the physical violation of the self is wrong, then the violation of the essence of the self is a far worse offense. For what else does synthesis do, but to forever alter the essence of one's self? Even if one subscribes to the concept of dualism, the body still reflects the spirit. So what happens when the body no longer accurately reflects the individual who inhabits it? What happens should the identity who inhabits the mind finds that it is a prisoner locked in a prison from which there is no escape until death? The situation becomes far worse if the Cartesian idea of the soul is wrong.

You'll need to first define "essence." And if its genes, then is the Alliance's standard gene therapy rape of the unborn? As for "souls," that's even less defined.

Imagine that you are an atheist and that you do not believe in any of this God nonsense. That you have a soul is equally ridiculous and is just another example of supernatural thinking. If you select synthesis then there is no question that you are raping the very essence of life. By choosing synthesis you forever alter the very essence of life itself and you do so for no greater reason than because you can.

Um, given that it's not sex and not damaging, nor is "essence" capable of consenting to anything to begin with, it's really not rape.

The Catalyst and the Reapers use deception and lies. Sovereign lied to you directly and the Reapers used the deception of peace talks to lure in the leaders. Just ten minutes before you meet the Catalyst, he and his buddies are doing their very best to end your life. He tells you that his solution will no longer work, but he never calls off his dogs does he? If you select Refuse he keeps on killing doesn't he? I thought he said that his solution will no longer work? Why's he killing everybody? Out of spite?

I don't think the Catalyst can stop the Reapers directly. And if this cycle fails to enact a new solution, the Catalyst will kill it and wait for the next one to come up with one.

That is the truth that those who prefer Synthesize will never recognize.

And yet none of that is actually truth. Your screed is reliant on the worst possible interpretation of Synthesis, one that never comes to pass.

[Wayning_Star]

knightnblu wrote...

I couldn't agree with you more. What is revealing is the denial of people who stand behind synthesis on feelings alone. They have a pre-conceived notion that they favor and to hell with any other consideration. Many human beings no longer apply critical thinking or logic as the tools used to arrive at a solution to a problem. We feel and form opinions based purely on an emotional response and then the act on those feelings and the consequences for everyone else be damned. They call the vanquishing of the enemy genocide and sympathize with the instruments of death and destruction and call them friends and look to save them. If you challenge their delusion they become immediately hostile, engaging in ad hominem and vitriol. This is because they can defend their opinion in no other fashion and to acknowledge that they are in error is to admit that they are flawed.

I have opined that if rape is the physical violation of the self is wrong, then the violation of the essence of the self is a far worse offense. For what else does synthesis do, but to forever alter the essence of one's self? Even if one subscribes to the concept of dualism, the body still reflects the spirit. So what happens when the body no longer accurately reflects the individual who inhabits it? What happens should the identity who inhabits the mind finds that it is a prisoner locked in a prison from which there is no escape until death? The situation becomes far worse if the Cartesian idea of the soul is wrong.

Imagine that you are an atheist and that you do not believe in any of this God nonsense. That you have a soul is equally ridiculous and is just another example of supernatural thinking. If you select synthesis then there is no question that you are raping the very essence of life. By choosing synthesis you forever alter the very essence of life itself and you do so for no greater reason than because you can.

It isn't as if there are no other options and you were left with only one way to go. In fact, you had three other options that didn't prescribe the rape of all life in the galaxy. What's worse is that these people's fantasy never recognizes what they are really doing. They say that Control is a God trip, that Destroy is genocide, and that Refusal is just too horrible to even consider. Some have even argued that the Dr. Mengele's of the Catalyst would make good friends and construction workers and have implied that justice is served because now we are the Catalyst in Synthesis.

While they may get all exited by that Kumbaya moment, it ignores the truth. The Catalyst is not gone, the killers who did the dirty work go unpunished, and the galaxy is victimized even further by their hands. What is telling about human nature is that none of them ever stop and really analyze why they do what they do. That would foul up the feelings don't you know? It has to be feelings because there is no basis established to support trust.

The Catalyst and the Reapers use deception and lies. Sovereign lied to you directly and the Reapers used the deception of peace talks to lure in the leaders. Just ten minutes before you meet the Catalyst, he and his buddies are doing their very best to end your life. He tells you that his solution will no longer work, but he never calls off his dogs does he? If you select Refuse he keeps on killing doesn't he? I thought he said that his solution will no longer work? Why's he killing everybody? Out of spite?

Go a step further. He betrayed his own creators and hunted them like animals and rendered their bodies down to it's base components and stuck them in a tin can like a deer head on the wall of a hunter. He set up the galaxy to run on a 50K year extinction cycle so that he could more efficiently wipe out advanced civilization. He defies the natural order by abridging the third law of thermodynamics, i.e. the imposition of order over chaos thus truncating evolution and preventing it from ever completing it's work. Only he fails.

He fails to complete the eradication of his creators, he fails to eradicate the Crucible, he fails to fully understand and comprehend organics, and he fails to grasp that nature cannot be denied for eternity. Yet he does what he does over, and over, and over again expecting to one day achieve his prime directive, the preservation of life. But he fails at that as well. He is essentially stuck on rinse, wash, repeat.

The truth of the matter is that there is no basis for trust. The Catalyst has you at a disadvantage and he knows it. That is why everybody squawked when Shepard blindly trusted him in the OE and was willing to do whatever he said without question in direct violation of his established character.

The Catalyst does not preserve life, he rapes it just as surely as Synthesis rapes it. He preserves life no more that I would preserve water by breaking down it's chemical bonds and storing the released oxygen and hydrogen gasses. What is left from the Catalyst's "mercy" is nothing more than a pale shadow of what once was. The only conclusion that can be drawn from these facts is that the Catalyst does not have an organic's best interests at heart.

That is the truth that those who prefer Synthesize will never recognize.

this is faux position argument. Basing victory upon your own opinion as 'the opinion' of others.

This 'trust' thing is a bit oxymoronic, as the story goes on to explain, that the catalyst is 'controlled' by shepard and his/her choice. It doesn't really matter at all what 'choosers' think so much as what is obtained with each choice. What I 'recognize' is a futile attempt to assume the worst with any given fan. But, in the end game, everyone has to 'trust' some thing, either the crucible, the catalyst or the game lore/facts. Your attempt to alter others perception through insistence, notwithstanding...lol

Something many fans fails to recognize?

edit: altered the pas for 'position', as the pas is relative, but inaccurate.

also see: Neuroscience of free will

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 29 avril 2013 - 06:33 .

[Argolas]

Wayning_Star wrote...

this is faux pas argument. Basing victory upon your own opinion as 'the opinion' of others.

This 'trust' thing is a bit oxymoronic, as the story goes on to explain, that the catalyst is 'controlled' by shepard and his/her choice. It doesn't really matter at all what 'choosers' think so much as what is obtained with each choice. What I 'recognize' is a futile attempt to assume the worst with any given fan. But, in the end game, everyone has to 'trust' some thing, either the crucible, the catalyst or the game lore/facts. Your attempt to alter others perception through insistence, notwithstanding...lol

Something many fans fails to recognize?

Sorry but if I choose to trust the game lore I must conclude that what I see is not possible in the MEU and it must be a hallucination that...

oh wait.

[Wayning_Star]

Argolas wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

this is faux pas argument. Basing victory upon your own opinion as 'the opinion' of others.

This 'trust' thing is a bit oxymoronic, as the story goes on to explain, that the catalyst is 'controlled' by shepard and his/her choice. It doesn't really matter at all what 'choosers' think so much as what is obtained with each choice. What I 'recognize' is a futile attempt to assume the worst with any given fan. But, in the end game, everyone has to 'trust' some thing, either the crucible, the catalyst or the game lore/facts. Your attempt to alter others perception through insistence, notwithstanding...lol

Something many fans fails to recognize?

Sorry but if I choose to trust the game lore I must conclude that what I see is not possible in the MEU and it must be a hallucination that...

oh wait.

you picking on me again Arg.. stop that..lol

I've since added to that post. The poster infers but, only that what fits one hand, not the other..

[Argolas]

Wayning_Star wrote...

you picking on me again Arg.. stop that..lol

Aww... sorry, I didn't mean to

About your link, I don't think it concerns the free will we are actually talking about here... but not going to philosophize on BSN again. Tried that once, not very pleasant.

[PsyrenY]

Argentoid wrote...

Synthesis is the final evolution of life. No more struggle for reaching it. No meaning of life.

Yes, it's abhorrent.

You seem to be equating "final evolution" with "final change." This is closed-minded thinking.

Evolution is a very specific form of change; there are in fact others.

[Metallica93]

Synthesis: Moral suicide. You JUST got done having a conversation with the Illusive Man about earning knowledge. You think we suddenly deserve the combined intellect of the vast majority of civilizations that existed in previous cycles? Hell no. It was bad enough that we evolved the way the Reapers wanted us to (with mass effect technology). Plus, how are organics "ready" for synthesis this time around?

People also keep mentioning how Shepard was indoctrinated at the end. The answer to this is as simple as, "If 'Destroy' was an option, then you were not indoctrinated." What kind of enemy gives you the means to wipe them out completely?