54 réponses à ce sujet

[Gamer Ftw]

 A lot of people say that doing anything other than going to the circle for help is evil or whatever.
But whether you use blood magic or kill connor only one personn dies,How many die to darkspawn while you delay stopping the blight?

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 08 mai 2013 - 02:20 .

[thats1evildude]

You have to go to the Circle anyway. There's no real delay involved.

Time is pretty fluid in Dragon Age. I wouldn't worry too much about lives lost when you're faffing about; the darkspawn invasion proceeds the same way no matter how slowly or quickly you enact the treaties.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 24 avril 2013 - 07:42 .

[Gamer Ftw]

The delay is in having to backtrack to redcliff after.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

thats1evildude wrote...

You have to go to the Circle anyway. There's no real delay involved.

Except that I always go to the Circle first, so that I can have Wynne asap.

Time is pretty fluid in Dragon Age. I wouldn't worry too much about lives lost when you're faffing about; the darkspawn invasion proceeds the same way no matter how slowly or quickly you enact the treaties.

I think he's talking about roleplay wise. It doesn't show in-game, but you're spending several days every time you use the overland map to travel. So you're wasting several days even assuming you had to go to the Circle anyway. One may take as read that the spawn are not. They probably don't do very much more than they would otherwise,  but it is still something to weigh.

One could also argue that morality aside, going to the Circle is a stupid idea roleplay wise. It's a six day round trip, if I remember correctly. That means six days that you're not there if Connor tries anything. The player knows that this won't end badly, the PC does not.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 24 avril 2013 - 09:15 .

[cJohnOne]

I usually get -21 approval from Alistair but the last two times I got -10 using persuade. If I go into the fade I have to turn the difficulty down but it makes more sense if you're a mage to go into the fade then send wynne or morrigan.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me to leave redcliffe and get the mages. I only do it if I want to romance Alistair but I'm bad at romances anyways.

[emeraldtrader]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

 A lot of people say that doing anything other than going to the circle for help is evil or whatever.
But whether you use blood magic or kill connor only one personn dies,How many die to darkspawn while you delay stopping the blight?

I wish that that argument was avalible.

[Face of Evil]

By that logic, perhaps you should skip conversing to companions or doing side quests.

Alistair wants to see his sister? Morrigan offering sexytimes? Have the materials for a dragonscale suit of armour? People are dying, you know.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 24 avril 2013 - 11:19 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Face of Evil wrote...

By that logic, perhaps you should skip conversing to companions or doing side quests.

Alistair wants to see his sister? Morrigan offering sexytimes? Have the materials for a dragonscale suit of armour? People are dying, you know.

There really is no better use for the time Morrigan offers to spend with you, or the conversation with companions time. That's time you're in camp anyway.

As for other sidequests, it depends. If it only takes a walk through Denerim, you're spending hours. That's not much time, relative to how much ground the horde is covering. If going where you need to be for the sidequest is incidental to a main quest you haven't completed, you're adding minutes. That's basically nothing.

Assuming you're already in Denerim anyway, you're not blowing too much time with Alistair's sister and the dragon armor, since you start out in the same area of Denerim those quests start in. It's the time over the overworld map that's supposed represent several-day journeys, if I understand correctly. (I'm not talking about the map of Denerim. That's just inside a city, and probably a relatively small one from all I understand of the lore.)

Edit: Besides which, the main reason time is a factor with regard to the Redcliffe quests isn't the spawn. Yes, they're the elephant in the room, but they're not as immediate a danger as Connor. The horde is slowly killing their way through Ferelden. At any point during your six day abscense, Connor could get bored. Ever read the codex entry on abominations? Most of the abominations in the game don't live up to the danger they're supposed to be. Connor, on the other hand, does.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 avril 2013 - 12:47 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Face of Evil wrote...

By that logic, perhaps you should skip conversing to companions or doing side quests.

Alistair wants to see his sister? Morrigan offering sexytimes? Have the materials for a dragonscale suit of armour? People are dying, you know.

Pfft,forget that even the Archdemon wil have to wait until I've had sexytimes. 
One time I ragekilled Connor because that is the name I chose for my rogue Cousland.
It's still his name meet my murderknife you little upstart.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 25 avril 2013 - 12:23 .

[Face of Evil]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

There really is no better use for the time Morrigan offers to spend with you, or the conversation with companions time. That's time you're in camp anyway.

You're only required to go to camp twice in the whole game: once after Lothering, and once after you enact the third treaty and a group of shrieks jumps you.

Do you mean to tell me that you went to camp more than that? People are dying, you know.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Assuming you're already in Denerim anyway, you're not blowing too much time with Alistair's sister and the dragon armor, since you start out in the same area of Denerim those quests start in. It's the time over the overworld map that's supposed represent several-day journeys, if I understand correctly.

You're only required to go to Denerim once before the Landsmeet. As you cannot get the dragonscale armour before that one visit, that implies you went more than once.

Just for a suit of armour. People are dying, you know.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 25 avril 2013 - 03:41 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Um,if you are roleplaying at all the PC needs food and sleep or he can't fight.
So there is a valid reason to camp.
My point is why are these two lives worth so many others?
Also your pc doesn't know the Connor/demon won't kill everyone while he's gone.
If the game was more logical he would have.
In my opinion if you don't metagame going to the circle is incredibly irresponsible.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 25 avril 2013 - 04:06 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Face of Evil wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

There really is no better use for the time Morrigan offers to spend with you, or the conversation with companions time. That's time you're in camp anyway.

You're only required to go to camp twice in the whole game: once after Lothering, and once after you enact the third treaty and a group of shrieks jumps you.

Do you mean to tell me that you went to camp more than that? People are dying, you know.

One can assume they set camp every night, unless you think they spend it force-marching. The difference here is that you're actually in control of the Warden during that time.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Assuming you're already in Denerim anyway, you're not blowing too much time with Alistair's sister and the dragon armor, since you start out in the same area of Denerim those quests start in. It's the time over the overworld map that's supposed represent several-day journeys, if I understand correctly.

You're only required to go to Denerim once before the Landsmeet. As you cannot get the dragonscale armour before that one visit, that implies you went more than once.

Just for a suit of armour. People are dying, you know.

If the Warden can't get decent armor, toss him on the pile.

[Face of Evil]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Um,if you are roleplaying at all the PC needs food and sleep or he can't fight.
So there is a valid reason to camp.

Do you ever see the Warden eating? Or sleeping beyond those two mandatory visits to camp? If you're assuming the Warden does need to do those things, then you should assume that they do so off-camera, and any extra time spent at camp chatting with your party members is wasteful. And when you're wasteful, you're giving the darkspawn more time to destroy Ferelden.

People are dying, you know.

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Also your pc doesn't know the Connor/demon won't kill everyone while he's gone.

I might be willing to concede that argument, but that's not the original argument you made. You said:

Gamer Ftw wrote...

But whether you use blood magic or kill connor only one personn dies,How many die to darkspawn while you delay stopping the blight?

In essence, you were saying that the Warden was letting people die by going to fetch the mages to save Connor. My counter-argument is that the Warden does a lot of things (going to camp, talking to friends, resolving their personal quests, etc.) that aren't helping to stop the Blight.

People are dying, you know.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 25 avril 2013 - 04:50 .

[Face of Evil]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

One can assume they set camp every night, unless you think they spend it force-marching. The difference here is that you're actually in control of the Warden during that time.

Assuming that the Warden does need to eat or sleep — s/he never says or does anything to indicate s/he does — one can also assume that they spend as little time in camp as possible and don't waste time chatting about their sad personal stories or having sex with the Warden. While you're having a roll in the bushes with Morrigan, people are dying, you know.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

If the Warden can't get decent armor, toss him on the pile.

Wear the armour you pick up during normal combat encounters on the road or when enacting treaties. People are dying, you know.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 25 avril 2013 - 04:48 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Actually they mention eating in party banter.
All people have to eat and wardens are much hungrier,they do mention that as well.
And posting people are dying over and over isn't making your point more valid.
Killing Connor or that screechy orlesian freakshow is the fastest way to solve the problem.
Amazing how many people forget that grey wardens do whatever it takes.
There is no valid reason to waste all that time and resources saving one person.
As for side quests did you think it costs nothing to feed an entire party?
There is no indication anyone knows how to hunt for food.
Or warm clothing you can't wear amor 24/7.
Also I can tell you have never tried hiking in the dark.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 25 avril 2013 - 05:37 .

[Face of Evil]

Food is mentioned, but the Warden never mentions needing to eat. He also never pays for food and never has to hunt for food. Alistair's increased appetite only occured after his Joining, which happened six months before the game. Saying that the Warden "needs" to go to camp is just bulls***.

The Warden never has to pay for his army. You can donate every coin you have to the army and you will have the exact same number of troops as someone who never gives them a single copper. Doing side quests are unnecessary.

No resources are expended saving Isolde and Connor except for the two days it takes to travel there and back. If you could point to a specific example of someone dying because the Warden went to the Tower, then your argument might have some legitimacy, but the fact remains that the darkspawn never advance any further in the time it takes to fetch the mages and perform the ritual.

If you still want to believe that's the case, then I suggest you stop doing side quests and talking to companions and going to camp, because lots of people are dying when you're doing all those "unnecessary" things.

But as it is, you're just trying to pass off a rather flimsy justification for killing Isolde (or Connor) because you don't like the woman.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 25 avril 2013 - 06:37 .

[Gamer Ftw]

People need to eat and sleep that is a fact.
Please point out where it says grey wardens suddenly don't need to eat or sleep? 
I actually do like Connor he faces his death bravely.After you tell him you are going to kill him he doesn't run or cry,he accepts it needs to be done to save others.
So I'm not killing him because I don't like him.
[Even though he stole my name. lol]
But saying people don't die because you don't see them is moronic,the darkspawn didn't have a tea party for a few days when you went to the tower and back.
They killed,people died.
And as to doing side quests for money don't forget healing potions and injury kits they cost money as well.
Or the fact that some of the side quests help later on.
It pisses me off people try to justify this.
THE FACT THAT CONNOR SHOULD HAVE KILLED EVERYONE while you were gone is enough.
It makes no sense that he would stop killing for no reason while you went to the tower.
It took a few days to get to the tower.
So if you left the people in the castle to die while you went for help [and Isolde could have been killed there as well.] you made the evil decision deal with it.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 25 avril 2013 - 08:05 .

[Face of Evil]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

People need to eat and sleep that is a fact.
Please point out where it says grey wardens suddenly don't need to eat or sleep?

My original point was that you don't have to go to camp at all, because the Warden takes care of sleeping and eating on his own.

Any time spent in camp talking to companions is a huge waste of time, and since wasting time=more people getting killed by companions, you should not spend any time at camp if that's your main concern.

Gamer Ftw wrote...

But saying people don't die because you don't see them is moronic,the darkspawn didn't have a tea party for a few days when you went to the tower and back.
They killed,people died.

But people die anyways. No matter how quickly or slowly you proceed through the campaign, the same amount of people die. The village of Lothering still gets destroyed when you enact one of the treaties, Honnleath is always attacked shortly before you get there and Redcliffe is always invaded once the Landsmeet is wrapped up.

You can't actually point to any specific examples of people dying as a result of the Warden going to the Circle Tower. That's just a guess on your part.

But you know who definitely DOES die if you don't go to the Circle Tower? Connor or Isolde.

Gamer Ftw wrote...

And as to doing side quests for money don't forget healing potions and injury kits they cost money as well.
Or the fact that some of the side quests help later on.

You can pick up plenty of money and supplies just doing the main quests. You don't really need to do any of the side quests or talk to your companions, so it's a total waste. And by your own logic, the more time you waste, more and more people are killed by darkspawn.

What does it feel like, to let all those innocent people die just so you can buy some better armour or healing potions that you don't really need?

Gamer Ftw wrote...

THE FACT THAT CONNOR SHOULD HAVE KILLED EVERYONE while you were gone is enough.
It makes no sense that he would stop killing for no reason while you went to the tower.
It took a few days to get to the tower.

But Connor doesn't do anything while the Warden is away. Nothing. No. Thing. No matter how much you complain about it, nothing you say will change the fact that Connor doesn't hurt a single person while the Warden goes to the tower, because the Warden has killed all of its soliders and it's too scared to come out of hidin.

So really, you have no excuse not to go to the tower. Not doing so is just letting people die for nothing, and you've made it clear how important saving lives is to you.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 25 avril 2013 - 09:06 .

[keeneaow]

But the warden didn't know that when she was running away to the tower,
the fact that you risk the life of these innocent NPC's clearly shows how ignorant you
are to the lives of NPC's

[Face of Evil]

Sure I did. You can go talk to Connor before leaving for the tower. He'll tell you himself the demon is scared of you. Plus, I had Jowan, Teagan and several Redcliffe knights standing on guard, and I had killed all the demons in the castle except Connor.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 25 avril 2013 - 09:20 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Lmao,sure the demon is scared WHILE YOU ARE THERE.
More reason not to leave,plus Connor already made Teagan his butt monkey once he's no help.
And didn't he make a bunch of guards attack you already?
No help there.
And Jowan will probably be locked away while you are gone.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 25 avril 2013 - 09:55 .

[ejoslin]

I should stay out of this... but...

Jowan, Teagan, and several Redcliffe knights were already there when Connor started killing to begin with. The major difference is now even many villagers are dead as well.

I usually kill Connor. I can't think of a RP reason to spare him. The people of the village need protection, and Isolde is not willing to give that to them. My power-hungry mage used blood magic to enter him and made a bargain with the demon, but ultimately, killing Connor seems to be the most logical decision.

Aside from the obvious danger, in Ferelden, it is standard to kill abominations. Every mage who fails their harrowing is killed. Every. Single. One.  If there's the slightest suspicion that a mage would fail their harrowing, they're tranquilled before given a chance to try.  There is no reason to believe that the templars would allow an abomination to live OR that they would allow a bunch of mages to go and knowingly meet one.

That everything ends up hunky dory makes no sense to me. There is no reason to think anything but more death could come from going to the circle with Connor being taken away then executed.

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 avril 2013 - 11:16 .

[Bhryaen]

"Are you going to do your duty as a Gray Warden and fight for these treaties or go off on every errand you encounter?"
"Yes, yes, Sten, we're getting to it, sheesh."

And that's what games inevitably lend themselves to. Why put sidequests in a game at all if you want everything to function like a true crisis with very definable conditions on a deadline? They're not there to lure the easily-distracted and thus incompetent would-be Wardens to their doom, after all. You're kinda supposed to do them. (Hell, there are multiple Bioware Achievement Awards for completing sidequests...)

Sure, they could've eliminated sidequests and just made even more protracted the steps required to get the treaties, plus placed a deadline of, say, 200 days from Ostagar and a set amount of days for travel between the various locations, plus added a timer that ticks off at every location, and then at day 200 you just face the attack on Denerim regardless... and you soon see how logistically unfeasible it would be to make the game like that as well as oppressive enough to be no longer fun as a game. Much more fun to have sexytime and sidequests and chats with colorful characters and all sorts of otherwise irrelevant and extraneous experiences.

And just think if the Deep Roads encounters didn't just sit there waiting for us to venture into them regardless of how much time we spend looking over inventory or testing out the new suit of Legion armor we got or making deals with dismembered demons- or while we're in the Arl of Denerim's estate taking all the time in the world while Howe just patiently awaits downstairs and no soldiers ever show up despite killing the door guards until we get around to coming back upstairs. If we don't go to Anora's door after killing Howe, soldiers will never show up there, and if we do speak to Anora, Ser Suckup's archers will wait forever by the door for you to get around to it. It's a game. Temporal realism isn't its forte. The foes don't rush, so why should I?

I admit though it always seems a bit ridiculous to hear Isolde and Teagan imploring you to do something as soon as possible, insisting that Connor could turn sanguinary again any moment, and then abandon the place back to Connor's demon and go off to the Tower for support instead- particularly after the grueling battle to save Redcliffe Village- even moreso if you haven't even gone to the Tower yet and aren't a Tower mage yourself since you wouldn't even know they'd help- even worse if you now go into the Tower to take more days killing the demons there before you return to Redcliffe. Not to mention Mr. Oops Blood Mage who you have no reason to trust even if you're a Tower mage. Given that killing Connor would work right now and has everyone's support/ complicity (though that too is irrelevant), there really isn't any other reasonable alternative. Even Morrigan says that sending a mage into the Fade using Jowan's blood magic is feasible, but this means that the mage could die and then you'd still have to kill Connor- meaning more lives are at risk with that option- so the quickest, least risky, and most decisive way to finish it off is just to immediately put the kid out of the town's misery, get it over with...

Which is why I usually go to the Tower Mages anyway. Because. More fun that way. Everyone lives. More encounter interactions. *shrugs* And if it's more fun to pretend you really are risking Connor's demon's renewed vengeance and that the Archdemon could show any moment and that time is of the essence, by all means have your character act on it. Roleplay away! Just don't expect everyone else to follow suit. It might make an interesting playthrough though- only doing what's needed to get the tasks done. No distractions (or XP or sovereigns or items) from side areas and side rooms, even just use a rogue in stealth to sneak straight through to the end battles. If you actually manage it, you'll probably be Level 10 by the archdemon. lol

Most games lend themselves to some degree of metagamed decision-making. The ideal non-metagamey game would make every decision the player can make in-game as if in real time and in a real situation, every encounter relevant to the main plot, never requiring the player to overlook the game-Maker machinations behind the curtain and just sort of close their eyes through obviously unrealistic moments so that the story "works" anyway... But if you instead make a game that can be enjoyed by both happily metagaming players and realism roleplayers- and the larger bulk of RPG players who play it somewhere between- you're golden. The only time which I worry about wasting when I'm in-game is my own...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 25 avril 2013 - 12:05 .

[Face of Evil]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Lmao,sure the demon is scared WHILE YOU ARE THERE.
More reason not to leave,plus Connor already made Teagan his butt monkey once he's no help.
And didn't he make a bunch of guards attack you already?
No help there.
And Jowan will probably be locked away while you are gone.

Teagan's enchantment was broken, and Jowan is definitely NOT sent to the dungeons. He keeps tabs on the demon while you're away. A blood mage can counter any attempts at mind control that the demon makes.

I wasn't worried.

[Gamer Ftw]

He could take Teagan over again with little effort and the others as well.
And why would a blood mage be able to counter it? there is no proof he could.
And If Jowan got possessed well Redcliff would live up to it's name wouldn't it?
Posessed blood mage,blood everywhere, dead everyone.
Including Eamon,Teagan,and Isolde.
So your trip would be for nothing.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 25 avril 2013 - 10:37 .