54 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Face of Evil wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Lmao,sure the demon is scared WHILE YOU ARE THERE.
More reason not to leave,plus Connor already made Teagan his butt monkey once he's no help.
And didn't he make a bunch of guards attack you already?
No help there.
And Jowan will probably be locked away while you are gone.

Teagan's enchantment was broken, and Jowan is definitely NOT sent to the dungeons. He keeps tabs on the demon while you're away. A blood mage can counter any attempts at mind control that the demon makes.

I wasn't worried.

We are talking about a being capable of raising the dead and animating statues. If memory serves, it also knows Cone Of Cold and can give Connor claws.

What you're worried about is that the demon will hack Teagan again?

Also, I don't remember any indication that Blood Mages know how to break a demon's mind control. They can control minds themselves, which is not the same thing.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 avril 2013 - 04:47 .

[sylvanaerie]

I frankly don't like killing the kid. My Surana is a 'good girl' who trust that Jowan (and the others) can handle it if things go bad. Teagan will tell you that you can cross the lake and reach the tower in a day. So it isn't that long to go get the mages (especially if you've already done the Circle and are just gathering willing volunteers/lyrium to help with the Fade entry).

My Surana does the circle route. My Cousland will either do the blood ritual or go circle (depending on how I rp them). The only time I did choose the "kill Connor" route, I allowed Isolde to do it which i felt was the less traumatic solution (if it could be said there was anything less traumatic about having to die) and this was on one of my Dalish.

It was mostly to get the different card at the end, and somehow miraculously Eamon not only mentions how oddly Connor was watching him---Really dude?--and the game thought Isolde had died and Connor went on to the circle to study. Guess Isolde didn't do such a good job killing him...

Sure, the most expediant way is to kill Connor, or go with Jowan's ritual and I will say more often than not I am using the ritual.  Jowan can do it, Isolde seems willing if it will save her son and it does work.  But some characters i've played it just doesn't 'feel' right on.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 avril 2013 - 01:05 .

[Face of Evil]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

He could take Teagan over again with little effort and the others as well.
And why would a blood mage be able to counter it? there is no proof he could.
And If Jowan got possessed well Redcliff would live up to it's name wouldn't it?
Posessed blood mage,blood everywhere, dead everyone.
Including Eamon,Teagan,and Isolde.
So your trip would be for nothing.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


We are talking about a being capable of raising the dead and animating statues. If memory serves, it also knows Cone Of Cold and can give Connor claws.

What you're worred about is that the demon will hack Teagan again?

Also, I don't remember any indication that Blood Mages know how to break a demon's mind control. They can control minds themselves, which is not the same thing.

None of these arguments mean much in light of the fact that the demon does nothing in your absence. That is the inescapable truth that you can't really dodge around or handwave away. The. Demon. Does. Nothing.

But given that the pair of you have apparently given up on trying to argue the point originally raised in this thread — that the Warden is somehow sacrificing lives to save Connor — does that mean you concede the point is wrong? Or are you going to keep moving the goalposts and try to argue something completely different?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Face of Evil wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

He could take Teagan over again with little effort and the others as well.
And why would a blood mage be able to counter it? there is no proof he could.
And If Jowan got possessed well Redcliff would live up to it's name wouldn't it?
Posessed blood mage,blood everywhere, dead everyone.
Including Eamon,Teagan,and Isolde.
So your trip would be for nothing.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


We are talking about a being capable of raising the dead and animating statues. If memory serves, it also knows Cone Of Cold and can give Connor claws.

What you're worred about is that the demon will hack Teagan again?

Also, I don't remember any indication that Blood Mages know how to break a demon's mind control. They can control minds themselves, which is not the same thing.

None of these arguments mean much in light of the fact that the demon does nothing in your absence. That is the inescapable truth that you can't really dodge around or handwave away. The. Demon. Does. Nothing.

I'm not arguing she did. I'm arguing that the Warden can't know she won't. If you're metagaming, fine. I do it too. But just because you know the outcome in advance doesn't mean the Warden isn't gambling.

But given that the pair of you have apparently given up on trying to argue the point originally raised in this thread — that the Warden is somehow sacrificing lives to save Connor — does that mean you concede the point is wrong? Or are you going to keep moving the goalposts and try to argue something completely different?

It means nothing of the sort. You haven't really answered the argument that the spawn are covering ground over the time you spend on that trip. I'm just saying it's not the most important thing that a non-metagamed-Warden should be considering, since the spawn are a less immediate danger than the abomination. A meta-gamed Warden knows that this will work out, I suppose. But the spawn are still moving forward during that time. I don't think they move very far in those few days, but they move.

As to whether people die because the Warden took those extra few days... I'll admit that point is a little murky. The spawn presumably spend those extra days moving, but whether or not they have them, they end up covering the same amount of ground. It's sort of like how Endrin always dies the same short amount of time before you arrive, whether you do Orzammar first or last. You either could have met Endrin if you had done things in a different order, or could have missed the entire succession crisis had you done so, depending on what you actually did. So if you took those extra days, people probably died because of them, and if you didn't, it made no difference.

(If this confuses you, you're not alone.)

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

If the Warden can't get decent armor, toss him on the pile.

Wear the armour you pick up during normal combat encounters on the road or when enacting treaties. People are dying, you know.

Are you referring to the stuff you find in ruins? The stuff you take off people who it failed to protect from you? People will die if the Warden fails, you know.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 avril 2013 - 04:04 .

[Blazomancer]

What Riverdaleswhiteflash mentioned. If you aren't metagaming, how is the warden supposed to know the demon would do nothing?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Face of Evil wrote...

A blood mage can counter any attempts at mind control that the demon makes.

...lolwut?

[Face of Evil]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I'm not arguing she did. I'm arguing that the Warden can't know she won't. If you're metagaming, fine. I do it too. But just because you know the outcome in advance doesn't mean the Warden isn't gambling.

Even from a roleplaying perspective, it's a calculated risk with a good chance of suceeding. The only time I haven't taken the option of going to the Circletower was when I didn't know it was an option.

But I was never trying to argue this point. My original beef was with the assertion that the Warden is sacrificing people to the darkspawn by going to the tower, which is just absurd.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

It means nothing of the sort. You haven't really answered the argument that the spawn are covering ground over the time you spend on that trip. I'm just saying it's not the most important thing that a non-metagamed-Warden should be considering, since the spawn are a less immediate danger than the abomination. A meta-gamed Warden knows that this will work out, I suppose. But the spawn are still moving forward during that time. I don't think they move very far in those few days, but they move.

Until the end game, the darkspawn don't so much advance as splinter into a host of war parties and make raids throughout Ferelden, all with the unstated goal of driving as many people to Denerim as possible. They're not conquering territory or "covering ground", really. It's as likely that nothing happens in the day and a half it takes to go to the Tower and back, especially if you need to go there anyways.

There's little logic in throwing away lives you know you could save over lives that may or may not be lost by acting a little more quickly. It's like shooting Schrodinger in order to save his cat.

And if you're so worried about the time spent enacting the treaties because lives are being lost while you piddle around, then perhaps you should stop talking to companions or doing side quests entirely, since more and more invisible citizens of Ferelden die with each passing second.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Are you referring to the stuff you find in ruins? The stuff you take off people who it failed to protect from you? People will die if the Warden fails, you know.

Irrelevant. Scavenged armour works just as well as bought armour game-wise. People are dying, you know.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 26 avril 2013 - 05:50 .

[Face of Evil]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

A blood mage can counter any attempts at mind control that the demon makes.

...lolwut?

You're right, I mis-spoke. It's not quite the same thing.

Still, Jowan can at least keep tabs on the demon (he says as much) and warn everyone if it tries anything. As blood magic comes from demons, I think he's qualified to do that much.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 26 avril 2013 - 05:13 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Face of Evil wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I'm not arguing she did. I'm arguing that the Warden can't know she won't. If you're metagaming, fine. I do it too. But just because you know the outcome in advance doesn't mean the Warden isn't gambling.

Even from a roleplaying perspective, it's a calculated risk with a good chance of suceeding. The only time I haven't taken the option of going to the Circletower was when I didn't know it was an option.

No, it's not. It's really not. Alistair mentions the possibilty that the Circle won't help, which alone is a problem if true. Sacrificing Isolde to Jowan has its own problems, but killing the abomination is a known solution. Even leaving aside that point (say the Circle already owes you, or you have Master Coercion, or both) you're still leaving the magical catastrophe that nearly wiped out the village unsupervised. It needs far less time than you're giving it to finish the job. Why do you think the Circles exist? So that when this happens, it happens in an isolated region with a hundred templars and maybe a few Senior Enchanters in shouting distance.

But I was never trying to argue this point. My original beef was with the assertion that the Warden is sacrificing people to the darkspawn by going to the tower, which is just dumb.

It is the more dubious point of the two, but I think it still holds water.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

It means nothing of the sort. You haven't really answered the argument that the spawn are covering ground over the time you spend on that trip. I'm just saying it's not the most important thing that a non-metagamed-Warden should be considering, since the spawn are a less immediate danger than the abomination. A meta-gamed Warden knows that this will work out, I suppose. But the spawn are still moving forward during that time. I don't think they move very far in those few days, but they move.

Until the end game, the darkspawn don't so much advance as splinter into a host of war parties and make raids throughout Ferelden, all with the unstated goal of driving as many people to Denerim as possible. They're not conquering territory or "covering ground", really. It's as likely that nothing happens in the day and a half it takes to go to the Tower and back, especially if you need to go there anyways.

No, they're advancing. Lothering goes early, and by the time of the Landsmeet most of the south of Ferelden has fallen. It's to the point where one of the arls asks Loghain if he wants the darkspawn to have the whole country when you mention the Blight in the Landsmeet.

Seriously, you think an entire horde of darkspawn across the southern half of the country is doing nothing over those days? I'm not saying anything major's going on. I'm just saying they probably find some way of spending that time you give them.

There's little logic in throwing away lives you know you could save over lives that may or may not be lost by acting a little more quickly. It's like shooting Schrodinger in order to save his cat.

You know that neither Connor and Isolde has to die for the best ending. The Warden doesn't. I have no problem with you using your own knowledge instead of the Warden's, but that's still what you're doing. That's what I've been saying from the start, that this is only justified in the context of metagame knowledge.

And if you're so worried about the time spent enacting the treaties because lives are being lost while you piddle around, then perhaps you should stop talking to companions or doing side quests entirely, since more and more invisible citizens of Ferelden die with each passing second.

Several day long detours are worth considering, if only barely. And I already mentioned that a sidequest already on the path you're traveling takes hours, maybe minutes for the shorter ones. That's nothing, with regard to the timescale we're talking. The horde can't really do much with a few extra hours, much less the seconds you seem to think I'm trying to shave.

And you're not wasting time talking to companions, since you're already at the camp for whatever reason. (Because you were forced to be there, because Bodhan, because the character is injured, whatever. From the same roleplaying perspective that this is relevant with regards to, you're presumably spending every night in camp anyway. The Joining doesn't make you not need food, it makes you need more of it. And at what point do you get the impression the Warden doesn't need sleep?)

Besides, I don't really roleplay as strictly as this is really relevant with regards to. I'm just saying that if you really think about it, this is probably what's going on while you do these sidequests.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Are you referring to the stuff you find in ruins? The stuff you take off people who it failed to protect from you? People will die if the Warden fails, you know.

Irrelevant. Scavenged armour works just as well as bought armour game-wise. People are dying, you know.

Wade's stuff is magical, in particular it's enchanted against fire. The darkspawn seem to like fire spells more than the other elements for some reason. Not to mention the materials are top-tier. So, no. Scavenged armor does not work just as well. Yeah, people probably die while you're gathering the materials. Better armor might well mean that you don't, and if you die, Ferelden is probably screwed. (Granted, the Warden doesn't know how screwed yet; presumably at this stage the Warden is just thinking "if I don't live the Dalish and the dwarves are going to ditch.")

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 avril 2013 - 06:05 .

[Gamer Ftw]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I frankly don't like killing the kid. My Surana is a 'good girl' who trust that Jowan (and the others) can handle it if things go bad. Teagan will tell you that you can cross the lake and reach the tower in a day. So it isn't that long to go get the mages (especially if you've already done the Circle and are just gathering willing volunteers/lyrium to help with the Fade entry).

My Surana does the circle route. My Cousland will either do the blood ritual or go circle (depending on how I rp them). The only time I did choose the "kill Connor" route, I allowed Isolde to do it which i felt was the less traumatic solution (if it could be said there was anything less traumatic about having to die) and this was on one of my Dalish.

It was mostly to get the different card at the end, and somehow miraculously Eamon not only mentions how oddly Connor was watching him---Really dude?--and the game thought Isolde had died and Connor went on to the circle to study. Guess Isolde didn't do such a good job killing him...

Sure, the most expediant way is to kill Connor, or go with Jowan's ritual and I will say more often than not I am using the ritual.  Jowan can do it, Isolde seems willing if it will save her son and it does work.  But some characters i've played it just doesn't 'feel' right on.

They couldn't handle it before why would you assume they could then?
And it takes a few days to get to the tower.
If your character was a "good girl" in my opinion she would she wouldn't leave people with an abomanation they had already proven they couldn't handle.
Would a "good person" risk so many lives to save one?

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 26 avril 2013 - 08:34 .

[Face of Evil]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No, it's not. It's really not. Alistair mentions the possibilty that the Circle won't help, which alone is a problem if true.
Sacrificing Isolde to Jowan has its own problems, but killing the abomination is a known solution. Even leaving aside that point (say the Circle already owes you, or you have Master Coercion, or both) you're still leaving the magical catastrophe that nearly wiped out the village unsupervised.

Either the Circle owes the Warden or the Warden has to go there anyway. Not a persuasive argument.

A magical catastrophe that has largely been defused. Do you see the villagers huddled in fear after you've successfully defended Redcliffe? The demon's army is mostly dead, and the demon itself is both afraid of the Warden and reluctant to leave Eamon's side, rendering it toothless.

But there I go again, debating a point that has nothing to do with my original argument.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No, they're advancing. Lothering goes early, and by the time of the Landsmeet most of the south of Ferelden has fallen. It's to the point where one of the arls asks Loghain if he wants the darkspawn to have the whole country when you mention the Blight in the Landsmeet.

Seriously, you think an entire horde of darkspawn across the southern half of the country is doing nothing over those days? I'm not saying anything major's going on. I'm just saying they probably find some way of spending that time you give them.

Did you play a different game than I did? Yes, the darkspawn send out raiding parties to attack villages and assassins after the Warden, but the bulk of the horde stays in the south.

This is actually a good strategy on their part. The Archdemon's absence continues to lead to doubt that this is a real Blight, and Loghain's civil war against the Bannorn only serves to weaken the country further. Loghain also (unwittingly) assists the darkspawn by sending his own assassins after the Warden.

As well, more and more refugees stream north to Denerim, setting it up so that the darkspawn will be able to slaughter as many people as possible when they finally attack the city.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You know that neither Connor and Isolde has to die for the best ending.

What the hell are you talking about? What "best ending"?

I (and the Warden by proxy) am just trying to save as many innocent lives as I have the power to save. It's absurd to sacrifice Connor or Isolde when there's a third alternative and the risks are within reason.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Several day long detours are worth considering, if only barely. And I already mentioned that a sidequest already on the path you're traveling takes hours, maybe minutes for the shorter ones. That's nothing, with regard to the timescale we're talking. The horde can't really do much with a few extra hours, much less the seconds you seem to think I'm trying to shave.

The trip to the Tower only takes two days at most from Redcliffe. How is that really any different than making a side trip from, say, Orzammar or Denerim to Lake Calenhad so Oghren can see his old girlfriend, or going on a side trip to the Cadash thaig so Shale can re-discover her past?

Companion quests=wasted time. Wasted time=leaving unseen Fereldans to die.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

And you're not wasting time talking to companions, since you're already at the camp for whatever reason.

The Warden tends to his needs for food or sleep off-camera. Any extra time spent at the camp not forced upon you is wasted time, which we've established leaves unseen Fereldans to die.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Besides, I don't really roleplay as strictly as this is really relevant with regards to. I'm just saying that if you really think about it, this is probably what's going on while you do these sidequests.

Sidequests take time. A few hours per sidequests adds up to days, which are days spent letting unseen Fereldans die.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Wade's stuff is magical, in particular it's enchanted against fire. The darkspawn seem to like fire spells more than the other elements for some reason.

Use fire resistance potions found on your travels or brewed with Herbalism. Going to Wade to get armour is a wasteful extravagance that results in killing unseen Fereldans.

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Would a "good person" risk so many lives to save one?

Wouldn't an evil person say that the death of one person is an acceptable loss?

Modifié par Face of Evil, 26 avril 2013 - 09:34 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Depends,is the death of everyone in redcliffe castle acceptable?
And don't give me that about I knew they would survive.
Your character didn't.
There is no reason the demon would stop once you were gone,just cause they made a unrealistic fairytale option doesn't mean you knew it would work.
And whether they owe you or not they could have just sent templars to kill Connor instead of mages who could get possessed.
In my opinion the option of going to the tower should have had realistic consequences.

[Face of Evil]

Who's "left" in Redcliffe Castle? Teagan and Isolde, Jowan and a few Redcliffe knights. (Also Eamon, though he's in no danger from the demon.) I'm pretty sure they're all OK with a calculated risk if it means pursuing a third option that will save the lives of both Isolde and Connor.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 26 avril 2013 - 10:05 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Are they?
I very much doubt that,because they have no reason to think the mages would help or that the templars would allow it.
After all templars kill abominations.
And depending on whether or not you saved the village once the people in the castle are gone he would go for them again.
Why is Isolde's or Connor's life worth so much more that those other people?
Even Connor accepts dying to save people and he's a child.
Of course I would much rather kill Isolde than Connor but my characters do whatever it takes.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 26 avril 2013 - 10:31 .

[ejoslin]

Face of Evil wrote...

There's little logic in throwing away lives you know you could save over lives that may or may not be lost by acting a little more quickly. It's like shooting Schrodinger in order to save his cat.

And if you're so worried about the time spent enacting the treaties because lives are being lost while you piddle around, then perhaps you should stop talking to companions or doing side quests entirely, since more and more invisible citizens of Ferelden die with each passing second.

I have pointed this out before but...  The warden has no way of knowing that Connor's life could be saved.  In Ferelden, abominations are killed.  And either you have not been to the tower, in which case all you know, if you listened to the rumors in Lothering, that it's possible that there are abominations running rampant there as well and the rite of annulment (death of all circle mages) has been called for.  If you have already been to the circle, you know it has just been devestated by abominations and many templars and mages died during that.  And if you sided with the templars, that option is out anyway.

You also know that for the war, only a few mages were allowed -- and this was at the king's order.  I cannot see why you would think that they would allow out more mages to meet a demon powerful enough to create abominations.  One of the most powerful and influential mages at the circle had JUST almost taken it down because he became an abomination -- if anything, the templars would be MORE cautious, not less.

All that aside, under the very best of circumstances, you know that abominations are put to death, not saved.  Mages are tested by seeing if they can resist demons, and if they cannot resist, they are killed (AKA the Harrowing).  Connor has shown that he cannot resist a demon, and while I think the system is a horrendous one, you have no reason to believe that an exception will be made for one child.  

The far more likely outcome, based on how things seem to happen in Ferelden, is that the templars would have come and arrested Connor, and he would have been executed or tranquilled (most likely the former as being tranquilled is the preventitive for mages they think MAY not be able to resist, not for the ones who become abominations) once at the circle.

Meanwhile, the people in the village are still at risk from the abomination.  The bodies haven't been burned yet, so there's no reason to think that they can't be reanimated again.  And there are a ton of bodies.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 avril 2013 - 10:52 .

[Gamer Ftw]

ejoslin wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

There's little logic in throwing away lives you know you could save over lives that may or may not be lost by acting a little more quickly. It's like shooting Schrodinger in order to save his cat.

And if you're so worried about the time spent enacting the treaties because lives are being lost while you piddle around, then perhaps you should stop talking to companions or doing side quests entirely, since more and more invisible citizens of Ferelden die with each passing second.

I have pointed this out before but...  The warden has no way of knowing that Connor's life could be saved.  In Ferelden, abominations are killed.  And either you have not been to the tower, in which case all you know, if you listened to the rumors in Lothering, that it's possible that there are abominations running rampant there as well and the rite of annulment (death of all circle mages) has been called for.  If you have already been to the circle, you know it has just been devestated by abominations and many templars and mages died during that.  And if you sided with the templars, that option is out anyway.

You also know that for the war, only a few mages were allowed -- and this was at the king's order.  I cannot see why you would think that they would allow out more mages to meet a demon powerful enough to create abominations.  One of the most powerful and influential mages at the circle had JUST almost taken it down because he became an abomination -- if anything, the templars would be MORE cautious, not less.

All that aside, under the very best of circumstances, you know that abominations are put to death, not saved.  Mages are tested by seeing if they can resist demons, and if they cannot resist, they are killed (AKA the Harrowing).  Connor has shown that he cannot resist a demon, and while I think the system is a horrendous one, you have no reason to believe that an exception will be made for one child.  

The far more likely outcome, based on how things seem to happen in Ferelden, is that the templars would have come and arrested Connor, and he would have been executed or tranquilled (most likely the former as being tranquilled is the preventitive for mages they think MAY not be able to resist, not for the ones who become abominations) once at the circle.

Meanwhile, the people in the village are still at risk from the abomination.  The bodies haven't been burned yet, so there's no reason to think that they can't be reanimated again.  And there are a ton of bodies.

You know you are awesome right?

[Face of Evil]

ejoslin wrote...

I have pointed this out before but...  The warden has no way of knowing that Connor's life could be saved.  In Ferelden, abominations are killed.  And either you have not been to the tower, in which case all you know, if you listened to the rumors in Lothering, that it's possible that there are abominations running rampant there as well and the rite of annulment (death of all circle mages) has been called for.

But the Warden has to go to the tower anyways. There is no option not to go to the Circle Tower eventually. So why would you suddenly accept a rumour mentioned in passing by a couple of Lothering residents as absolute fact and then turn around and say "Well, better go enact this treaty at the Tower now!" That doesn't make any sense.

It also requires you to completely disregard what Jowan is saying, namely that it is possible to reverse Connor's possession.

In any case, the Warden does not specifically say "Let's go round up some mages and lyrium for a ritual". The Circle is merely mentioned as an option, and other people spell out the specifics. Can the Warden be blamed for idle speculation?

ejoslin wrote...

You also know that for the war, only a few mages were allowed -- and this was at the king's order.  I cannot see why you would think that they would allow out more mages to meet a demon powerful enough to create abominations.

Because the Circle is under the governance of the mages, not the templars? Greagoir washes his hands completely of the mages' involvement in the war, so why would he suddenly object to mages performing a ritual in furtherance of the war effort?

ejoslin wrote...

All that aside, under the very best of circumstances, you know that abominations are put to death, not saved. Mages are tested by seeing if they can resist demons, and if they cannot resist, they are killed (AKA the Harrowing). Connor has shown that he cannot resist a demon, and while I think the system is a horrendous one, you have no reason to believe that an exception will be made for one child.

But Connor hasn't had the benefit of actually receiving training at the Circle. The Harrowing is not applied to every child the moment they arrive at the tower; it is a test applied to every mage at a time when they are deemed to be "as ready as they will ever be."

While there might be a review of his case, I have no problem believing that Connor would still be accepted at the Circle. Especially since, y'know, that's exactly what happens.

But you know, as I keep saying, this is all a moot point. My original intent was never to argue that the Warden should save Connor under all circumstances, but to point out the fallacy in saying the Warden was sacrificing lives by going to the Tower.

I've extended that logic to side quests and companion chats, but indeed, if every second ticks by results in the deaths of countless Fereldans, perhaps we should also say that anyone who lets their playthrough last longer than, say, 20 hours is also letting dozens of people die unneccessarily. It's the natural conclusion to this line of thought.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 26 avril 2013 - 11:39 .

[Gamer Ftw]

The templars have the final say in what the mages do.
It actaully doesn't make much sense that they were allowed to go.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 26 avril 2013 - 11:55 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

The templars have the final say in what the mages do.
It actaully doesn't make much sense that they were allowed to go.

While this doesn't influence my argument that this is a risky idea, the fact remains that Eamon now owes them a favor. It makes perfect sense that they were allowed to go.

[Gamer Ftw]

Not sure It would be worth all the mages who could have gotten possessed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No, it's not. It's really not. Alistair mentions the possibilty that the Circle won't help, which alone is a problem if true.
Sacrificing Isolde to Jowan has its own problems, but killing the abomination is a known solution. Even leaving aside that point (say the Circle already owes you, or you have Master Coercion, or both) you're still leaving the magical catastrophe that nearly wiped out the village unsupervised.[/QUOTE]

Either the Circle owes the Warden or the Warden has to go there anyway. Not a persuasive argument. [/quote]

If the Circle owes the Warden, they'll probably do this thing. If they don't, you have no idea whether or not this will work. And needing to go there eventually has nothing to do with what I'm arguing.

[quote]
A magical catastrophe that has largely been defused. Do you see the villagers huddled in fear after you've successfully defended Redcliffe? The demon's army is mostly dead, and the demon itself is both afraid of the Warden and reluctant to leave Eamon's side, rendering it toothless. [/quote]

The demon being afraid of the Warden is relevant while the Warden is still there. It's reluctance to leave Eamon's side might be relevant, though it'll have a matter of days to get over that. Nor does the demon's army being dead render it 100% toothless. It is terrifying enough on its own.

[quote]
But there I go again, debating a point that has nothing to do with my original argument.[/quote]

Happens to me all the time.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No, they're advancing. Lothering goes early, and by the time of the Landsmeet most of the south of Ferelden has fallen. It's to the point where one of the arls asks Loghain if he wants the darkspawn to have the whole country when you mention the Blight in the Landsmeet.

Seriously, you think an entire horde of darkspawn across the southern half of the country is doing nothing over those days? I'm not saying anything major's going on. I'm just saying they probably find some way of spending that time you give them.[/QUOTE]

Did you play a different game than I did? Yes, the darkspawn send out raiding parties to attack villages and assassins after the Warden, but the bulk of the horde stays in the south. [/quote]

Yeah, it's the raiding parties that are killing people. How does this invalidate my argument?

[quote]
This is actually a good strategy on their part. The Archdemon's absence continues to lead to doubt that this is a real Blight, and Loghain's civil war against the Bannorn only serves to weaken the country further. Loghain also (unwittingly) assists the darkspawn by sending his own assassins after the Warden.

As well, more and more refugees stream north to Denerim, setting it up so that the darkspawn will be able to slaughter as many people as possible when they finally attack the city.

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You know that neither Connor and Isolde has to die for the best ending.[/QUOTE]

What the hell are you talking about? What "best ending"?  [/quote]

The non-obvious one you say is obvious.

[quote]
I (and the Warden by proxy) am just trying to save as many innocent lives as I have the power to save. It's absurd to sacrifice Connor or Isolde when there's a third alternative and the risks are within reason. [/quote]

What I'm saying is that they're not. Even assuming Jowan keeps watch over Connor, what does he do if Connor tries something? He probably dies. Then Teagan and Isolde either get mind-controlled, or die. If you metagame, you know this won't happen. If you roleplay, you're going for a solution you can't be sure will work, when there's one you can be sure will work staring you in the face.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Several day long detours are worth considering, if only barely. And I already mentioned that a sidequest already on the path you're traveling takes hours, maybe minutes for the shorter ones. That's nothing, with regard to the timescale we're talking. The horde can't really do much with a few extra hours, much less the seconds you seem to think I'm trying to shave.[/QUOTE]

The trip to the Tower only takes two days at most from Redcliffe. How is that really any different than making a side trip from, say, Orzammar or Denerim to Lake Calenhad so Oghren can see his old girlfriend, or going on a side trip to the Cadash thaig so Shale can re-discover her past?

Companion quests=wasted time. Wasted time=leaving unseen Fereldans to die. [/quote]

On that score, you're right, but we're not talking about that right now. We're talking about the fact that leaving the demon in Redcliffe is risking the lives of both seen Fereldens and unseen Fereldens.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

And you're not wasting time talking to companions, since you're already at the camp for whatever reason.[/QUOTE]

The Warden tends to his needs for food or sleep off-camera. Any extra time spent at the camp not forced upon you is wasted time, which we've established leaves unseen Fereldans to die. [/quote]

The Warden is already going to camp off-camera. Unless he goes on-camera.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Besides, I don't really roleplay as strictly as this is really relevant with regards to. I'm just saying that if you really think about it, this is probably what's going on while you do these sidequests.[/QUOTE]

Sidequests take time. A few hours per sidequests adds up to days, which are days spent letting unseen Fereldans die.[/quote]

That doesn't answer the point you were replying to. Or, it does, but not in any way that refutes it.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Wade's stuff is magical, in particular it's enchanted against fire. The darkspawn seem to like fire spells more than the other elements for some reason.[/QUOTE]

Use fire resistance potions found on your travels or brewed with Herbalism. Going to Wade to get armour is a wasteful extravagance that results in killing unseen Fereldans. [/quote]

That doesn't answer my point that the armor was quality material. And there's other enchantments on it too. If the Warden dies, so does Ferelden. There's such a thing as acceptable losses.

[quote]
[quote]Gamer Ftw wrote...

Would a "good person" risk so many lives to save one?[/quote]

Wouldn't an evil person say that the death of one person is an acceptable loss?
[/quote]

That's irrelevant to the question you're answering with it.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 avril 2013 - 02:52 .

[CDR David Shepard]

Best is subjective.

However, I go to the circle because I like to do everything within my power to save people.

Going to the circle for help is within my power.

Modifié par CDR David Shepard, 26 avril 2013 - 03:57 .

[Gamer Ftw]

But you don't know going to the circle will help or that there will be anyone left when you get back.

[ct2651]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

You have to go to the Circle anyway. There's no real delay involved.

Except that I always go to the Circle first, so that I can have Wynne asap.

Time is pretty fluid in Dragon Age. I wouldn't worry too much about lives lost when you're faffing about; the darkspawn invasion proceeds the same way no matter how slowly or quickly you enact the treaties.

I think he's talking about roleplay wise. It doesn't show in-game, but you're spending several days every time you use the overland map to travel. So you're wasting several days even assuming you had to go to the Circle anyway. One may take as read that the spawn are not. They probably don't do very much more than they would otherwise,  but it is still something to weigh.

One could also argue that morality aside, going to the Circle is a stupid idea roleplay wise. It's a six day round trip, if I remember correctly. That means six days that you're not there if Connor tries anything. The player knows that this won't end badly, the PC does not.

Haha, that is exactly why i like much Zelda majora's mask, in this game, time was important.
And it was totally important to not arrive late for all the sides quests of the game.
And for the main game, if it was too long, the moon gonna crash for real...

Real threat i have'nt seen in todays games.

[wiccame]

Gamer Ftw wrote...


My point is why are these two lives worth so many others?
Also your pc doesn't know the Connor/demon won't kill everyone while he's gone.
If the game was more logical he would have.
In my opinion if you don't metagame going to the circle is incredibly irresponsible.

 

You're trying to get the support of Arl Eamon assuming you can revive him, and saving his wife and son would deffinitely go a long way in getting that support. Not saying he wouldn't anyway but I am sure he would be a lot more grateful if you took the time to save them, and if I recall Teagan says it would take just a days journey across the lake (2 days round trip) and if you haven't let Jowan run off then he would be there to help keep Connor under control.