351 réponses à ce sujet

[Dieb]

I think it would help this discussion a great deal if we clarified what you mean by "not like the ending".

Do you mean
"I wish I could have done something differently to end this war"
or
"BioWare insulted their customers by creating this poorly executed piece of software"?

Modifié par Baelrahn, 25 avril 2013 - 07:28 .

[txgoldrush]

MrFob wrote...

iakus wrote...

Alien Number Six wrote...

I'm with Auld Wulf. The ending made you think. It wasn't the sugar coated candy entertainment most know and love. It was not handed to us on a silver platter wrapped in a bow. I can understand some are angry about it. Many of us expected a Return of the Jedi like wrap up. Instead Shepard didn't make it out alive. I fought a war and thought the ending conveyed the saddest truth of war that most try not to think about. War costs lives and sometimes even the best don't make it out alive......

I can get that reading a newspaper, watching the news on tv, or heck, reading a history book.  When I play a videogame, I expect to be entertained.  Not to be told "sad truths" or be forced to perform terrible acts on the galaxy to prove there is no good in it, only the evil you're willing to permit.


To use your Return of the Jedi example:  You don't tack Saw to the end of the Star Wars trilogy and call it a job well-done.

Well, I wouldn't even make that distinction. I think video games have the potential to raise these kinds of questions, to make people think and to tackle difficult moral issues. They can even mix this with entertainment. Deus Ex: Human Revolution is a great example for this IMO. However, the game itself needs to reflect that. The story needs to build up to this and the player must be led into this kind of situation. Only then can such a choice be meaningful and only then can you really engage your audience.
The way I played the ME trilogy, it was not that kind of story. The moral dilemma, the difficult choice and their implications come out of the blue. For me they were completely unexpected and disjointed from the rest of the story. That robbed the ending of any meaning for me. Any potential deeper meaning gets lost in the thunder with which the narrative comes crashing down.
I don't know, maybe Alien Number Six, Aud Wulf and others see this complete break in the plot as a means to shock the player into thinking harder about the problem that is presented? If so, it certainly didn't work for me because I was busy thinking about this trilogy, which followed a very traditional narrative structure so far, could suddenly just loose all its cohesion.
IMO the problem with the ending is not that it is dark or that it puts Shepard into a difficult, even horrible position. The problem was that all of this came without any lead-in and without any connection to the rest of the story. The fact that it was full of logical fallacies and ultimately reiterated a problem that was already solved within the main plot didn't help either.

So yes, video game developers, please engage us, make us think about things, ask difficult questions and put us players in tough moral positions. But please make up your minds about this in the beginning of your projects, not in the last 5 minutes. Please do so with foresight and a plan. If that is the case, I am looking forward to be entertained and have my perspectives challenged.

(BTW, in that sense, iakus, your example with Star Wars and Saw is well chosen.)

Wrong, so wrong...you did not pay attention the narrative.

The dilemmas presented in the ending were discussed all game long. The sacrifice one must make is the theme of the narrative. Destroy and Control were presented throughout the entire game and Synthesis was hinted at throughout the series.

It only comes out of the blue or out of nowhere because you didn't pay attention.

[PsyrenY]

txgoldrush wrote...

The dilemmas presented in the ending were discussed all game long. The sacrifice one must make is the theme of the narrative. Destroy and Control were presented throughout the entire game and Synthesis was hinted at throughout the series.

It only comes out of the blue or out of nowhere because you didn't pay attention.

Indeed. And Synthesis was hinted at in-game too, mostly from EDI and Adams.

[AlexMBrennan]

Synthesis was hinted at throughout the series.

Yes, you are right, Shepard defeating the geth clearly foreshadows that synthetics will inevitably destroy all life and not, like one might naively think, the opposite. And clearly the existence of implants foreshadows that we need a new reversed polarity DNA framework matrix to be the final stage of evolution.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I could be the only person in the world not to like the ending for all I care. I would still think it's an horribly written POS.

[txgoldrush]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Synthesis was hinted at throughout the series.

Yes, you are right, Shepard defeating the geth clearly foreshadows that synthetics will inevitably destroy all life and not, like one might naively think, the opposite. And clearly the existence of implants foreshadows that we need a new reversed polarity DNA framework matrix to be the final stage of evolution.

No, its foreshadowed by notonly Saren but the Reapers calling themselves the pinnacle of evolution.

[Bizinha]

Baelrahn wrote...

I think it would help this discussion a great deal if we clarified what you mean by "not like the ending".

Do you mean
"I wish I could have done something differently to end this war"
or
"BioWare insulted their customers by creating this poorly executed piece of software"?

"I wish I could have done something differently to end this war"

I do not think Bioware would want to insult someone.

[AresKeith]

txgoldrush wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Synthesis was hinted at throughout the series.

Yes, you are right, Shepard defeating the geth clearly foreshadows that synthetics will inevitably destroy all life and not, like one might naively think, the opposite. And clearly the existence of implants foreshadows that we need a new reversed polarity DNA framework matrix to be the final stage of evolution.

No, its foreshadowed by notonly Saren but the Reapers calling themselves the pinnacle of evolution.

That's not foreshadowing Synthesis, the ending wasn't even planned at that time

[webhead921]

It's really hard to tell who's in the majority, since most people don't go on BSN. Most of the people I know in person thought the ending was very disappointing, but weren't nearly as disgusted as a lot of the people here. Almost everyone I know is either ambivalent or happy with the ending now that the Extended Cut is all done. Then again, I only know like 6 or 7 people who are big Mass Effect fans, that information is useless and not really indicative of the fanbase as a whole.

[ThinkSharp]

Why can't we ever agree that the fact that there's continued and varied disagreement over every point of the endings from morality to narrative structure implies that there's no clear majority rule? Or, at least, no absolute?

The unrelenting problem is that some are obsessed with arguing that their opinions about the ending are the most right and every other opinion an offense to humanity. Any real exchange of ideas about them then gets thrown out window.

I get that this issue cuts to the quick for many fans, who truly love the series, and I understand the desire to defend what you're passionate about--whether its hate or support--and that's fine. That's what discussion is. But what I don't get is the need to invalidate any opposing viewpoint by crushing it under the weight of "We're the majority. You're not" or "You're stupid and just don't get it."

At the end of the day, a lot of people hate the endings, a lot of people feel betrayed, a lot of people were disappointed, a lot of people are indifferent, a lot of people accept the ending with reservation, a lot of people enjoy the ending, and, yes, some people even love it.

And to anyone who would say "All people who hate it weren't paying attention" or "Anyone who likes this doesn't truly understand the lore"--you're being absolutely ridiculous. There is no clear "right" or reason here. That this argument continues is proof.

(P.S. I'm not necessarily accusing you of any of this, OP. I just got on a rant.)

Modifié par ThinkSharp, 25 avril 2013 - 08:07 .

[Revthejedi]

They could've told the same story with the same ending and execute it better and I would have been ok with it. As it stands, it's so hackneyed and thrown together it's not even worth discussing concepts the writers didn't even consider when forming the story.

[Eretikas]

Robosexual wrote...
The biggest figure we have on the ending, the Retake movement, were only something like 4% of the people who bought the game in March last year. People use terrible logic on BSN all the time (like that person above exagerating the 4% figure into 90%)

People who vote counts. If vocal minority is responsible for low game ratings on Amazon and other popular sites then it will make huge impact on product sales, because silent majority listens. If ending was perfect then the vocal minority would liked it too. I guess that ME3 sold well, but sale figures probably would be much bigger with perfect ending and there would be no need to spend resources on free DLCs in order to appease the fans.

[MegaSovereign]

Eretikas wrote...

Robosexual wrote...
The biggest figure we have on the ending, the Retake movement, were only something like 4% of the people who bought the game in March last year. People use terrible logic on BSN all the time (like that person above exagerating the 4% figure into 90%)

People who vote counts. If vocal minority is responsible for low game ratings on Amazon and other popular sites then it will make huge impact on product sales, because silent majority listens. If ending was perfect then the vocal minority would liked it too. I guess that ME3 sold well, but sale figures probably would be much bigger with perfect ending and there would be no need to spend resources on free DLCs in order to appease the fans.

Except we have plenty of cases where low user ratings aren't related to sales. I think every COD game since MW2 has had an obnoxiously low user rating on places like metacritic, yet they consistently are the best selling game every year.

Ratings from critics seem to have a bigger impact, but even then it's not a definite correlation and or cause/effect.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 25 avril 2013 - 08:52 .

[K. S. Black]

We might have known the answer if Bioware had done something like Valve did with Left 4 Dead 2: create a poll secton in the main menu of the game where you would get results from the poll every week/month along with a new poll, maybe even tell us the results across all platforms as well. Too bad they did not do this though, so we will never know the truth behind their words.

[frostajulie]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Anyone who completed the game more than once liked the ending. That is how it works.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No. **** no **** no **** no

[txgoldrush]

AresKeith wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Synthesis was hinted at throughout the series.

Yes, you are right, Shepard defeating the geth clearly foreshadows that synthetics will inevitably destroy all life and not, like one might naively think, the opposite. And clearly the existence of implants foreshadows that we need a new reversed polarity DNA framework matrix to be the final stage of evolution.

No, its foreshadowed by notonly Saren but the Reapers calling themselves the pinnacle of evolution.

That's not foreshadowing Synthesis, the ending wasn't even planned at that time

doesn't mean they can't go back to ME1 and use it to create the ending...thats pretty much what they did.

[Matthias King]

For whatever it's worth, I have not met a single person, not a single one, in real life or on Xbox Live playing the multiplayer, who liked the endings. Only a couple of those people were here on BSN.

I've played the multiplayer since day one and played a lot of random public matches, and I haven't talked to a single person who liked the ending.

From everyone I've ever talked to, the opinions ranged from moderate dislike to outright heartbreak and disgust.

Like I said, take it for what it's worth, but I'm talking hundreds of people over the past year.

[chemiclord]

MrFob wrote...
IMO the problem with the ending is not that it is dark or that it puts Shepard into a difficult, even horrible position. The problem was that all of this came without any lead-in and without any connection to the rest of the story. The fact that it was full of logical fallacies and ultimately reiterated a problem that was already solved within the main plot didn't help either.

Just want to snip this particular part... because I don't think the problem WAS solved... even in the slightest.

300 years of animosity between geth and quarians is honestly dispelled because Shepard yelled at Han'Gerrell for three minutes?  The seeds for a longer peace may have been planted, but even then there's no promise that it's anything lasting.

Xen is still out there, for example.  I can guarantee you that her feelings haven't changed.  Nor has Gerrel's.  Nor has the animosity of being pressured into the Flotilla for a good many quarians.  And, ya know what... you don't exterminate a species to nothing but a handful of millions and think, "It's okay now."  I can guarantee you the geth aren't "all in" either.

I would suggest that this "peace" really isn't anything more than a "cease fire" and even then only due to a common enemy.  Nothing was solved or resolved, and it certainly does NOT challenge the Catalyst's contention at all (that a large scale war is inevitable).  There may be OTHER counterpoints... but the geth/quarian conflict is NOT one of them, in my opinion.

[txgoldrush]

chemiclord wrote...

MrFob wrote...
IMO the problem with the ending is not that it is dark or that it puts Shepard into a difficult, even horrible position. The problem was that all of this came without any lead-in and without any connection to the rest of the story. The fact that it was full of logical fallacies and ultimately reiterated a problem that was already solved within the main plot didn't help either.

Just want to snip this particular part... because I don't think the problem WAS solved... even in the slightest.

300 years of animosity between geth and quarians is honestly dispelled because Shepard yelled at Han'Gerrell for three minutes?  The seeds for a longer peace may have been planted, but even then there's no promise that it's anything lasting.

Xen is still out there, for example.  I can guarantee you that her feelings haven't changed.  Nor has Gerrel's.  Nor has the animosity of being pressured into the Flotilla for a good many quarians.  And, ya know what... you don't exterminate a species to nothing but a handful of millions and think, "It's okay now."  I can guarantee you the geth aren't "all in" either.

I would suggest that this "peace" really isn't anything more than a "cease fire" and even then only due to a common enemy.  Nothing was solved or resolved, and it certainly does NOT challenge the Catalyst's contention at all (that a large scale war is inevitable).  There may be OTHER counterpoints... but the geth/quarian conflict is NOT one of them, in my opinion.

Not only this, but th eEC flat out reveals this....

In Control, they live apart with the geth under the protection of the Reapers.

Only in synthesis do they truly live together.

[dsl08002]

Those who disliked the ending are a majority and we have already seen the evidence of that through numerous surveys.

while on the subject i still havnt met anyone who actually liked the ending, they all disliked it.

[The Night Mammoth]

txgoldrush wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

MrFob wrote...
IMO the problem with the ending is not that it is dark or that it puts Shepard into a difficult, even horrible position. The problem was that all of this came without any lead-in and without any connection to the rest of the story. The fact that it was full of logical fallacies and ultimately reiterated a problem that was already solved within the main plot didn't help either.

Just want to snip this particular part... because I don't think the problem WAS solved... even in the slightest.

300 years of animosity between geth and quarians is honestly dispelled because Shepard yelled at Han'Gerrell for three minutes?  The seeds for a longer peace may have been planted, but even then there's no promise that it's anything lasting.

Xen is still out there, for example.  I can guarantee you that her feelings haven't changed.  Nor has Gerrel's.  Nor has the animosity of being pressured into the Flotilla for a good many quarians.  And, ya know what... you don't exterminate a species to nothing but a handful of millions and think, "It's okay now."  I can guarantee you the geth aren't "all in" either.

I would suggest that this "peace" really isn't anything more than a "cease fire" and even then only due to a common enemy.  Nothing was solved or resolved, and it certainly does NOT challenge the Catalyst's contention at all (that a large scale war is inevitable).  There may be OTHER counterpoints... but the geth/quarian conflict is NOT one of them, in my opinion.

Not only this, but th eEC flat out reveals this....

In Control, they live apart with the geth under the protection of the Reapers.

Only in synthesis do they truly live together.

Well that's conjecture. 

[Bizantura]

A multi national that makes a "extended cut" dlc says it all for me. So no not exactly a minority but that does not mean a majority either. But too many to go unappeased. Sadly enough for EA/Bioware the last "Citadell" dlc did that job far better in appeasing so the former in retospect was a waste of money.

[Bill Casey]

It would frighten me more if a majority liked the ending...
It would mean most of the people gobbled up fascist ideals like pancakes...

[AresKeith]

txgoldrush wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Synthesis was hinted at throughout the series.

Yes, you are right, Shepard defeating the geth clearly foreshadows that synthetics will inevitably destroy all life and not, like one might naively think, the opposite. And clearly the existence of implants foreshadows that we need a new reversed polarity DNA framework matrix to be the final stage of evolution.

No, its foreshadowed by notonly Saren but the Reapers calling themselves the pinnacle of evolution.

That's not foreshadowing Synthesis, the ending wasn't even planned at that time

doesn't mean they can't go back to ME1 and use it to create the ending...thats pretty much what they did.

Which would ending up meaning don't trust Synthesis

[chemiclord]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Well that's conjecture. 

I can't speak for txgoldrush(sp?), but for me... yes; it's just conjecture on my part.

But I think it's conjecture with a foundation on how people are, and how people behave both socially and as individuals.  We are, as a rule, EXTREMELY slow to trust, and that trust comes even slower as the groups become larger.  "Peace" doesn't just "happen"; it takes time, often several generations, for the animosity to finally dwindle to the point that's it not a significant factor in the lives of those involved.

Even if I were to accept that the geth could just drop it all (something for which I am EXTREMELY dubious... Legion, for example, demonstrates it is more than capable of bearing sentiment, both positive AND negative)... I don't know how anyone could think the quarians could do the same.

All it would take is one spark (and there is a small handful of survivors on BOTH sides that would be more than capable of it), and all that work is completely undone.

As a counterpoint to the Catalyst's conclusion, it is a VERY feeble one.

Modifié par chemiclord, 25 avril 2013 - 09:54 .