351 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Its funny reading txgoldrush's post on defending stuff

[chemiclord]

MrFob wrote...

@chemiclord : Maybe, you can assume that problems can still occur but that is not the point of my argument. Maybe it would have been clearer to say that the plot was concluded rather than to say that the problem was solved. The theme was taken care of in the rannoch arch. From the very beginning of trilogy, the organic/synthetic story focused on the quarians and the geth. Maybe, one could even make the argument that in ME1, the reaper plot was still very much tied to that theme but ME2 actually does a very good job of separating them. IMO, it is not good style to use the exact same paradigm for two major plotlines, especially if the author is not even mentioning a connection between the two.

I don't know, maybe the ending theme would have worked better if the player didn't have a chance of brokering a peace between the geth and the quarians but if they had to desrtoy one faction to save another. This might have strengthened the catalysts argument and it would have set a precedent where Shepard is not the ideal her (although I'd still say that his comes too late in the trilogy). However, given that the option exists, and given the rest of the story, the ending is too disjointed from the main plot to offer a meaningful choice, IMO.

Well, how I would respond to say is that the geth/quarian conflict, while the most visible, was hardly the ONLY instance of organic/synthetic... incompatibility.  And let's not forget that the Council Races had a very staunch, "NO AI" law on the books from even before human interjection on the galactic scene.  From what I know of governance... laws don't happen until there is a REASON to make them. (THAT could have used some fleshing out).

As for the other point, I personally DESPISE the resolution on Rannoch for partly that reason.  It creates a disconnect firstly, and secondly the "peace" brokered is inherently non-sensical.  There's NO WAY Shepard's little brow-beating, no matter how influential he is, would change the actions of people so committed that we are two hours past the 11th hour of the conflict (the quarians are freaking shooting at the geth AS THIS IS HAPPENING, if I remember correctly).  It's a "golden ending" that makes absolutely NO sense within the narrative provided.

[o Ventus]

Wow. That article missed the point the way Superman dodges speeding bullets.

Infinite wasn't aiming to "redefine" the alternate universe theory. It was telling its own version of that story, with its own rules and guidelines.

[txgoldrush]

AresKeith wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Baelrahn wrote...
 If there's anyone arguing about ME3's being the worst ending of videogame history, I recommend finishing the original Dungeon Siege.

I always say KotOR 2. But I never got past the DS demo.

I played KOTOR2 years before the restoration mod.

The ending was pretty wtf-inducing.

But, imo, it still doesn't hold a candle to the sheer badness of the ME3 ending.

Bioshock Infinite's ending is far worse than ME3s.

lolno

Now your trying too hard

See article I posted.....and its not just the ending thats a mess, the entire games plot is a mess.

[FlamingBoy]

CDR David Shepard wrote...

I think you're the only one who doesn't like the ending.

I think you should practice thinking

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

Wow. That article missed the point the way Superman dodges speeding bullets.

Infinite wasn't aiming to "redefine" the alternate universe theory. It was telling its own version of that story, with its own rules and guidelines.

which is flat out ridculous, and the game simply had no theme......that game simply has a lot of narrative problems.

[TheChris92]

txgoldrush wrote...


No, its a plot hole ridden mess of a game with a conclusion so forced and arbitary. Easily the worst Bioshock game.

No, that it is not. Fair enough, you don't like the ending, it's not for everyone. I'd say there are many people who interprets the story & its ending in different ways. Linking to an article written by 1 guy doesn't exactly set it in stone as there are many other articles says the opposite to the one you linked. Anyway, I completely disagree with your statement, as I personally found BioShock 2 to be the worst simply because it didn't really say or deliver much.

Modifié par TheChris92, 25 avril 2013 - 10:55 .

[liggy002]

They do have secret flowcharts that say we are a minority but we should believe them.... just because.

[txgoldrush]

AresKeith wrote...

Its funny reading txgoldrush's post on defending stuff

And it would be funny, if it wasn't so sad, watching people cry about an ending they simply don't get, because they chose to ignore the narrative and the themes.

Simply put, it goes over the heads of the Bioware fan, because Bioware games have been far too conservative in the past.

[The Night Mammoth]

txgoldrush wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Bioshock Infinite's ending is far worse than ME3s.

Lolno. 

It actually ties everything up in a neat little bow whilst fulfilling its own premise and goals, whilst leaving plenty of room for the much sought after speculation. 

In my opinion.

No, its a plot hole ridden mess of a game with a conclusion so forced and arbitary. Easily the worst Bioshock game.

This article discusses how much BI fails.

http://inanage.com/2...-infinite-plot/

Notice I said 'In my opinion', at the bottom of that post? Yeah, it's important. If there's one thing I've learned since ME3 came out, it's that even plot holes are subjective. I never claimed Bioshock Infinite was perfect, and yeah, it had it's problems, but I'm not getting in to it here. Nice article, but I don't put much stock into the opinion of someone who clearly didn't like the basic premise from the start, and seems to have no suspension of disbelief. 

[txgoldrush]

TheChris92 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


No, its a plot hole ridden mess of a game with a conclusion so forced and arbitary. Easily the worst Bioshock game.

No, that it is not. Fair enough, you don't like the ending, it's not for everyone. I'd say there are many people who interprets the story & its ending in different ways. Linking to an article written by 1 guy doesn't exactly set it in stone as there are many other articles says the opposite to the one you linked. Anyway, I completely disagree with your statement, as I personally found BioShock 2 to be the worst simply because it didn't really say or deliver much.

No, Bioshock 2 is actually the best in the series, because it actually says the most. Pay attention to that games ending. Eleanor Lamb basically not only wraps up Bioshock 2 but in the good ending, quite possibly wraps up Rapture itself.

In fact BS2 and Minerva's Den had the MOST to say.

[M Hedonist]

I'm someone who didn't like Bioshock Infinite's ending (or really just the general plot of the game), but if you're suggesting it even comes close to the soul-crushingly bland and hopeless ending ME3 got, you've got to be kidding.
ME3 was about a hopelessly bleak war. That's not something bad in itself, as long as it pays off. If it doesn't pay off, you just have a depressing story about a war that destroyed a majority of the galaxy. It is baffling why anyone would want to tell such a story or even be involved in such an endeavor. Somehow, that actually happened.

[chemiclord]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I didn't take issue with anything you said, I should have taken out the quote to apologies. 

I actually agree, for the most part. If you're looking at it in realistic terms then no, this most likely isn't the end of hostilities between the geth and the quarians. I think of it less as Shepard solving the problem and more of enabling them to solve it themselves. Being set on the right path, basically. 

However, I've long stopped really looking at the Catalyst's problem in logical terms. There's not enough information to go on. Now I just think about what the meaning behind it all was. What was the point of uniting the geth and the quarians, if what the Catalyst says ends up being true? Wouldn't that invalidate not only that outcome, which has since become one of the pillars of ME3, but a whole lot of related material? It's conflicting, and I'm more inclined to side with EDI and the Rannoch arc. 

I've seen a lot of your posts on the forums talking about respect for the author/developer/artist and I agree entirely, but I've found it very difficult not to fall into a 'I reject your reality' sort of mindset where this part of the story is concerned. 

Well, now we're getting into a matter of execution on Bioware's part, which I am right at the front of the line to say was nothing short of ATROCIOUS.

I can assemble a fairly good conjecture for many of the things the Catalyst says (like the Geth/Quarian conflict).  But that's not something I should have to conject.  It's a fairly natural thing to expect Shepard to present to the Catalyst, even if it IS easily dismissed.  Hell, it makes the Catalyst's logic STRONGER if the argument is presented BECAUSE it is so easily dismissed.

I can also assemble what the Catalyst is saying in a way that actually makes a pretty strong amount of purely logical sense... but that's NOT something the player should be required to do, nor should it be expected, and nor does it mean your fan's don't "get it" if they refuse to do the legwork for you.  That's... not... the... fan's... job.  That is YOURS.  If you do not do so, that means YOU failed, not THEM.

Modifié par chemiclord, 25 avril 2013 - 11:01 .

[Mr.House]

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Wow. That article missed the point the way Superman dodges speeding bullets.

Infinite wasn't aiming to "redefine" the alternate universe theory. It was telling its own version of that story, with its own rules and guidelines.

which is flat out ridculous, and the game simply had no theme......that game simply has a lot of narrative problems.

:lol::lol: Oh god my sides, they hurt.  I really hope you're joking.

Modifié par Mr.House, 25 avril 2013 - 11:01 .

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

which is flat out ridculous,

This isn't a sentence. If something is ridiculous, you should probably tell me what it is.

and the game simply had no theme......that game simply has a lot of narrative problems.

This isn't a sentence either (nor a continuation of the last statement).

Judging by your stark inability to actually formulate your own arguments, I'm going to assume that you have no idea what the f**k you're talking about.

This coming from someone who also finds fault with Infinite's plot and ending.

[txgoldrush]

Sauruz wrote...

I'm someone who didn't like Bioshock Infinite's ending (or really just the general plot of the game), but if you're suggesting it even comes close to the soul-crushingly bland and hopeless ending ME3 got, you've got to be kidding.
ME3 was about a hopelessly bleak war. That's not something bad in itself, as long as it pays off. If it doesn't pay off, you just have a depressing story about a war that destroyed a majority of the galaxy. It is baffling why anyone would want to tell such a story or even be involved in such an endeavor. Somehow, that actually happened.

Well thats the point...instead of going to video game cliche and glorify the war and trivalize the cost, it shows what the war truly was.

And no, the ending was pretty hopeful in the EC, except for the worst ones.

[AresKeith]

txgoldrush wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Its funny reading txgoldrush's post on defending stuff

And it would be funny, if it wasn't so sad, watching people cry about an ending they simply don't get, because they chose to ignore the narrative and the themes.

Simply put, it goes over the heads of the Bioware fan, because Bioware games have been far too conservative in the past.

Wait, let me get some popcorn

*grabs popcorn*

please continue

[Mr.House]

AresKeith wrote...

Its funny reading txgoldrush's post on defending stuff

I like how he defends ME3 and it's ending but bashes Infinte and it's ending. My sides hurt.

[spirosz]

Oh god, I found it.

Tx, you need to learn some...

perspective.

[FlamingBoy]

Honestly its irrelevant how or if bioshock ending was worse than mass effect 3, The only thing thats relevant is that the ending of bioshock infinite (which I still haven't played ) did not create a controversy that questioned the core integrity and honesty of bioware as an entity,
actually scratch that mass effect 3 ending led to a controversy that questioned the integrity of the video gaming industry itself, drawing lines in the sand of who was on the "consumers" side and the "publishers" side.

Bioshock infinite did not have that affect

[M Hedonist]

txgoldrush wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

I'm someone who didn't like Bioshock Infinite's ending (or really just the general plot of the game), but if you're suggesting it even comes close to the soul-crushingly bland and hopeless ending ME3 got, you've got to be kidding.
ME3 was about a hopelessly bleak war. That's not something bad in itself, as long as it pays off. If it doesn't pay off, you just have a depressing story about a war that destroyed a majority of the galaxy. It is baffling why anyone would want to tell such a story or even be involved in such an endeavor. Somehow, that actually happened.

Well thats the point...instead of going to video game cliche and glorify the war and trivalize the cost, it shows what the war truly was.

And no, the ending was pretty hopeful in the EC, except for the worst ones.

"what the war truly was"? Man, you know it's a video game, right? Nothing of that actually happened. It only happened because the writers wanted it to happen. And what the writers wanted to happen was just awful.

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

which is flat out ridculous,

This isn't a sentence. If something is ridiculous, you should probably tell me what it is.

and the game simply had no theme......that game simply has a lot of narrative problems.

This isn't a sentence either (nor a continuation of the last statement).

Judging by your stark inability to actually formulate your own arguments, I'm going to assume that you have no idea what the f**k you're talking about.

This coming from someone who also finds fault with Infinite's plot and ending.

Yes, I do actually formulate my arguments....it just that the article I posted shares the same views I do, so instead of writing a post, used that person's article, which I agree word for word as my argument.

The fact of the matter, simply put, is to criticize most of what the Extended Cut does, you have to ignore the narrative of ME3. Thats what anti enders don't get. It was all about sacrifice not only from the opening, but from ME2's final DLC.

[AresKeith]

Mr.House wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Its funny reading txgoldrush's post on defending stuff

I like how he defends ME3 and it's ending but bashes Infinte and it's ending. My sides hurt.

He's a White Knight, but choosing Bioshock Infinite is kinda odd lol

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

Yes, I do actually formulate my arguments....it just that the article I posted shares the same views I do, so instead of writing a post, used that person's article, which I agree word for word as my argument.

"Word for word" then? Wow. Have you actually played Infinite?

The fact of the matter, simply put, is to criticize most of what the Extended Cut does, you have to ignore the narrative of ME3. Thats what anti enders don't get. It was all about sacrifice not only from the opening, but from ME2's final DLC.

This is arbitrary and has no basis in anything.

[TheChris92]

txgoldrush wrote...

No, Bioshock 2 is actually the best in the series, because it actually says the most. Pay attention to that games ending. Eleanor Lamb basically not only wraps up Bioshock 2 but in the good ending, quite possibly wraps up Rapture itself.

In fact BS2 and Minerva's Den had the MOST to say.

I believe this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. You call Infinite a bad game, because you felt like the plot didn't tell you anything and you didn't find the game had a theme, while at the same time calling out on people for not getting the mess that was ME3? Yeah, okay - Whatever.. Mass Effect is a supposed space-opera sci-fi game -- And at the end of ME3 it tried to be something it wasn't. It tried to be clever & overly philisophical like something out of Neon Genesis Evangelion or Deus Ex with some convoluted exposition. The ending was too clever for its own good, in that respect. Now back to BioShock..

BS2 really did not bring anything to the table. The story of Rapture was closed, over & done with BS1. There really wasn't more to say in that respect. The Prototype Big Daddy wasn't a compelling protagonist, because it didn't have that same close relationship that BS1' Jack had with Ryan & Fontaine. The game was bland & uinteresting.  

Modifié par TheChris92, 25 avril 2013 - 11:15 .