153 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Rolls eyes.
Plaintiff,Did you bother to read the rest?
My point is there are way too many half wit characters.
It ruins the game to have to worry about the approval of these people.
Because they are morons.
dragging Alistair along and listening to his whining and complaining is like being followed with an immature ten year old with a sword.
With a half wit character I would just never use him unless I had to.
Unless he was a badass like Sandal.

It doesn't matter who you consider to be a halfwit, it doesn't change the nature of the joke.

Alistair hardly complains at all, except when the protagonist does something he finds morally offensive, and by that standard all of the characters are immature.

I'm curious as to why agreeing with you is automatically more mature than disagreeing.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 26 avril 2013 - 10:35 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Rolls eyes.
Plaintiff,Did you bother to read the rest?
My point is there are way too many half wit characters.
It ruins the game to have to worry about the approval of these people.
Because they are morons.
dragging Alistair along and listening to his whining and complaining is like being followed with an immature ten year old with a sword.
With a half wit character I would just never use him unless I had to.
Unless he was a badass like Sandal.

It doesn't matter who you consider to be a halfwit, it doesn't change the nature of the joke.

Alistair hardly complains at all, except when the protagonist does something he finds morally offensive, and by that standard all of the characters are immature.
I'm curious as to why agreeing with you is automatically more mature than disagreeing.

 I didn't mean for it to be a joke.
He whines about his ripped clothing,he whines about Morrigan he whines about everything.
He whines about Duncan to a guy who just got most of his family slaughtered. [My Cousland.]
He even whines about killng Connor AFTER HE SUGGESTED IT.
He thinks every man who pays attention to him is his new daddy and he is way too old to need one.
In my opinion if he won't lead he should shut up and make way for someone who can.
If they make another character like this I hope there is an option to kill him.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 26 avril 2013 - 10:56 .

[JWvonGoethe]

(Not in direct reply to anyone in particular): Maybe the premise of this thread is a little bit too likely to cause misunderstanding and offence...

As far as non-verbal companions are concerned, I think the only viable options are an animal/golem/fade creature or a strong and literally silent mercenary type (almost a caricature of Sten), who is mute by choice, but still of sound mind.

Just having someone with learning difficulties appear for the sake of saving writing resources would be a little extreme. You could argue that Sandal already fulfills that role, but I think his portrayal of someone with special needs has been maybe a little shallow but still fairly sympathetic and is there to add some more diversity to the world. It also puts a small spotlight on carers in the form of Bodahn. The point is to enjoy and/or appreciate the differences between people.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 26 avril 2013 - 11:52 .

[Sejborg]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

This on the other hand. You seem to have absolutely no problem equating a human being with a dog. Repeatedly.

I am doing that in the sense of what I believe it cost for Bioware to develop these characters. I am not saying a half wit is the same as a dog. If they were the same then why would I ask for one and not the other? Clearly they are different. 

So this companion is mentally disabled and cannot speak, does this exclude them from any kind of emotional reaction (apart from what the dog is capable of) that other human companions might engage the player with?

Of course not. As I said it is still possible to understand Hodor even though he is unable to say anything but Hodor. Just as I mentioned with the character from Dan Simmons's Hyperion who is rendered unable to speak anything but seven words. That character is still able to express himself in ways that exceed the meaning of those seven words. 

Are interactions that do not include a simple scold/praise system beyond them?

No. They would just have to be expressed in a different way than what we are used to with Bioware games.

Oh and don't bother giving them any kind of emotional story arc, after all they're just retarded.

Perhaps you should calm down and talk about it with a clear head, instead of just assuming that the inclusion of a half wit would be done with cruel intentions. 

I get that the rights of people with disabilities isn't NEARLY as much of a progressive buzzword as feminism and gay rights but this kind of selective social justice is just disgusting. Irony being that choosing to fight for the rights of some people and excluding others is repeating the pattern of the status quo so many rail against.

Lets make an analogous example since some seem incapable of identifying something as wrong unless a large group of people have told them it is: Instead of having a well developed and romancable gay companion just give us an obedient Tevinter sex slave on a leash. This will satisfy the LGBT community* and not waste valuable resources through fairly and accurately representing some minority no one really cares about.

Offended yet?

* - which includes me btw, so put down your torches and pitchforks. 

I believe a sexslave would open up opportunities for interesting roleplay.  If you know what I mean? 
Besides that this thread is not about romances or LGBT's so let's not derail this thread. 

Back to topic. I don't think Hodor or Sandal is offensive at all. I'm not sure why you find them so offensive or why you assume a companion like that would be offensive? Please try and explain this to me instead of just asking questions and assuming that I have some cruel intentions by suggesting a half wit as a companion. 

[Sejborg]

Plaintiff wrote...

Yes they can. The audience may not always understand Kenny, but his friends understand him just fine. Kenny is not mentally handicapped, his voice is just muffled by his hoodie. It is also possible for the audience to decipher his comments from the general context of the conversation and the tone and rhythm of his muffled voice.

Maybe Kenny wasn't the best example. I will grant you that. But the bolded part could still be achieved through just "hodoring". Just like all of Chewbacca's growls didn't need to be translated by Han Solo. 

Plaintiff wrote...
But we can't understand WHY Hodor is happy or sad, we can't understand if he might've had something meaningful to contribute to the conversation.

You can make a qualified guess. And that we can't know for sure exactly what he is thinking of trying to say, could make your imagination run wild, and therefore make it rather interesting to guess what is going on up in his head.

Plaintiff wrote...
How do we access his quests?

That's assuming the companions will have personal quests. But I guess he could just point on a map, or if you go to a specific place he will start rambling and try and point you in a direction of what he wants to do.

Plaintiff wrote... How can we be sure if he himself understands what we're saying to him?

 
How about. You ask him to do something and he does it. Pretty simple. 

Plaintiff wrote...  What would be the point of engaging in dialogue with him? We can't discern his past or his likes or dislikes. We have no way of determining how to go about forging a friendship with him, unless he's constantly accompanied by an interpreter, which would just be an extra, unnecessary step in communicating with him.

 
How can Bodahn know that Sandal likes enchanting stuff. Sure conversations would be simple or perhaps somewhat pointless - that is what is making it a low cost character to include!

Plaintiff wrote...  Dog's limitations mean that he has very little in the way of utility, and Mabari are supposed to be extremely intelligent. The player can only react with him in an extremely limited number of ways. Unless you're okay with a developmentally challenged charactger being relegated to fetching random trash and licking blood of your face,

Now that is kinda creepy. I don't see why this half wit character shouldn't be able to repair weapons, armor, enchant stuff, and so on (you can make up your own abilities if you please). Afterall there should be a reason why this character is brought a long on quests. Perhaps he is able to wield the meanest war hammer in the realm.

Plaintiff wrote... I don't see what they could offer that Dog cannot. And furthermore, I don't think I trust Bioware to implement such a character with the sensitivity and tact that ought to be required. Hodor doesn't sound like a sensitive or accurate portrayal of the mentally handicapped, he sounds like he exists to be a recurring gag.

A humanoid clearly opens up other possibilies in terms of storytelling than a dog. And really I could care less if a character is an accurate portrayal of something. I just want the characters to be interesting. Sometimes accurate and interesting is on the same side of the rope. Other times accurate is just boring. 

[Firky]

Plaintiff wrote...

Luckily I don't think they do have that attitude, I think they have a vested personal interest in equality. But the limitations of a character like Hodor (I know you said that's not his name but I don't know what else to call him) are extremely constraining. It would be very difficult to write him in such a way as to make him an equal, valued member of the party, and while the challenge might be appealing, you risk offending a lot of people if you get it wrong, without necessarily meaning to.

(Interestng example about your own writing.)

I struggle with my own creative writing. It's hard to get things right. But I really think that not getting things wrong shouldn't be *that* hard. By your own example, you got feedback and decided it didn't come across the way you wanted it to, so you went down another path. That's good, right?

There was the example where, in Mark of the Assassin, Seredipity said something that was taken badly (fairly, IMO) by some players, due to a structuring dialogue issue and the BW writer apologised. There was the example David Gaider wrote about in his blog, where an early draft, or whatever, hadn't passed peer review because it sounded some alarm bells with female writers.

Otherwise, I don't think BioWare's structure lends itself to offence more than any other medium. Art, films, novels, games, whatever, touch all sorts of content in wonderful ways. There are examples of people doing challenging content well, everywhere you look.

There are examples of great portrayals of a whole range of people in games. Here's a great one. http://freebirdgames.com/to_the_moon/ Or this. http://www.gog.com/g...longest_journey There's the "glitch" character in Wreck it Ralph, for goodness sakes. She's awesome.

I think it's about context. Don't put in a "mute" character for the hell of it. Put him/her in because the story demands it. And take every measure not to mess it up.

(Just my opinion.)

Modifié par Firky, 26 avril 2013 - 11:55 .

[Gamer Ftw]

If you just want a mute character why not a sarebas?
Some of them get thier tongues cut out.
As for Sandal I'm not convinced he actaully is a half wit.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 26 avril 2013 - 12:11 .

[jillabender]

Sejborg wrote...

A humanoid clearly opens up other possibilies in terms of storytelling than a dog. And really I could care less if a character is an accurate portrayal of something. I just want the characters to be interesting. Sometimes accurate and interesting is on the same side of the rope. Other times accurate is just boring.

Respectfully, I think this is a case where the right of people with intellectual disabilities to be treated like individuals and respected as people should trump what non-disabled people might find personally "interesting."

Sejborg wrote...

Sure conversations would be simple or perhaps somewhat pointless - that is what is making it a low cost character to include!

Having worked in a group home for adults with developmental and intellectual disabilities, some of whom were non-verbal or had limited language skills, I can say that interacting with a disabled person with extremely limited language skills doesn't feel "simple and pointless," or like interacting with an automaton who mindlessly repeats words or phrases.

When you spend time with disabled people who are non-verbal or have limited language skills, it's apparent that they're very aware, and they're reacting to the world around them - just not in a way that you personally can understand. And they each express themselves differently. They're not all "savants" who have exceptional skills in some specific non-verbal area, but there's a lot going on in their minds that they can't express in a way you can fully understand - and just like anyone else, they sometimes find it frustrating when they have difficulty communicating. But when you make the effort to learn to interpret their unique behaviour patterns, you can begin to understand their ways of communicating.

I really don't intend this as a personal attack, because I really don't believe you intended to offend - I just feel strongly about this issue because people with developmental and intellectual disabilities have often been treated like animals or mindless objects in institutions, so I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a disabled character who's there simply to provide "simple and pointless" interactions and perform tasks for the PC, because I don't think that kind of portrayal is consistent with treating disabled people respectfully as individuals.

Modifié par jillabender, 26 avril 2013 - 10:08 .

[Firky]

jillabender wrote...

...

Having worked in a group home for adults with developmental and intellectual disabilities, some of whom were non-verbal or had limited language skills, I can say that interacting with a disabled person with extremely limited language skills doesn't feel "simple and pointless," or like interacting with an automaton who mindlessly repeats words or phrases.

When you spend time with disabled people who are non-verbal or have limited language skills, it's apparent that they're very aware, and they're reacting to the world around them - just not in a way that you personally can understand. And they each express themselves differently. They're not all "savants" who have exceptional skills in some specific non-verbal area, but there's a lot going on in their minds that they can't express in a way you can fully understand - and just like anyone else, they sometimes find it frustrating when they have difficulty communicating.

...

I think that's really nicely put.

Modifié par Firky, 26 avril 2013 - 12:39 .

[Sejborg]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

If you just want a mute character why not a sarebas?
Some of them get thier tongues cut out.
As for Sandal I'm not convinced he actaully is a half wit.

I forgot about that. Also there are the silent sisters. 

But I find that at least some kind of sound goes a long way to add character. But I suppose an all out mute character could be interesting as a companion. Just not quite as much as one that is able to say at least one word. 

[jillabender]

Firky wrote...

jillabender wrote...

...

Having worked in a group home for adults with developmental and intellectual disabilities, some of whom were non-verbal or had limited language skills, I can say that interacting with a disabled person with extremely limited language skills doesn't feel "simple and pointless," or like interacting with an automaton who mindlessly repeats words or phrases.

When you spend time with disabled people who are non-verbal or have limited language skills, it's apparent that they're very aware, and they're reacting to the world around them - just not in a way that you personally can understand. And they each express themselves differently. They're not all "savants" who have exceptional skills in some specific non-verbal area, but there's a lot going on in their minds that they can't express in a way you can fully understand - and just like anyone else, they sometimes find it frustrating when they have difficulty communicating.

...

I think that's really nicely put.

Thank you! ^__^

[Sejborg]

jillabender wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

A humanoid clearly opens up other possibilies in terms of storytelling than a dog. And really I could care less if a character is an accurate portrayal of something. I just want the characters to be interesting. Sometimes accurate and interesting is on the same side of the rope. Other times accurate is just boring.

Respectfully, I think this a case where the right of people with intellectual disabilities to be treated like individuals and respected as people should trump what non-disabled people might find personally "interesting."

Where do this come from? Why the hell do people think I want mentally disabled to not be respected as people? 

jillabender wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Sure conversations would be simple or perhaps somewhat pointless - that is what is making it a low cost character to include!

Having worked in a group home for adults with developmental and intellectual disabilities, some of whom were non-verbal or had limited language skills, I can say that interacting with a disabled person with extremely limited language skills doesn't feel "simple and pointless," or like interacting with an automaton who mindlessly repeats words or phrases.

Right. I should have explained my meaning better with that sentence, but what you are saying is part of what I have been trying to say. You can't always know exactly what the half wit is trying to say. it's part of what would make him interesting to interact with. If you can't guess what the half wit is trying to tell you, then it would feel kinda pointless to interact with him. What you can safely interpret from him would be simple stuff. More complex stuff would be difficult but is also what would make him more interesting than just some random fantasy pet. From a writers point of view it would be easy to write a conversation with a character who can only say one word. But what you as the player can interpret from character with a speech disorder is miles beyond: "happy bark!". That is why I believe a half wit would make a better character than the dog for roughly the same cost.

jillabender wrote...
When you spend time with disabled people who are non-verbal or have limited language skills, it's apparent that they're very aware, and they're reacting to the world around them - just not in a way that you personally can understand. And they each express themselves differently. They're not all "savants" who have exceptional skills in some specific non-verbal area, but there's a lot going on in their minds that they can't express in a way you can fully understand - and just like anyone else, they sometimes find it frustrating when they have difficulty communicating. But when you make the effort to learn interpret their unique behaviour patterns, you can begin to understand their way of communicating.

Sure. But why would you think this character I propose would not be aware of the world he is in?

But you need to give this character some exceptional quality. Why else whould you bring him along on quests? He can be really strong or have great stealth abilities. Something that makes sense to have him as a companion - just like any other companion. 

jillabender wrote...
I really don't intend this as a personal attack, because I really don't believe you intended to offend - I just feel strongly about this issue because people with developmental and intellectual disabilities have often been treated like animals or mindless objects in institutions, so I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a disabled character who's there simply to provide "simple and pointless" interactions and perform tasks for the PC, because I don't think that kind of portrayal is consistent with treating disabled people respectfully as individuals.

I don't take it as an attack. And again, I don't want to treat half wit's as animals. I suppose there could be options in game to treat him poorly - but then it should only be for roleplaying purposes and there should also be options to treat him good. Forcing the player to treat people poorly, be racist, or stuff like that isn't something I would want forced on the player. 

Modifié par Sejborg, 26 avril 2013 - 01:36 .

[JWvonGoethe]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

If you just want a mute character why not a sarebas?
Some of them get thier tongues cut out.
As for Sandal I'm not convinced he actaully is a half wit.

I don't know if you were replying to me, but since your post seems relevant to what I wrote above, I'll say that I did suggest a Saarebas as an example of a mute character on page 1 of this thread, citing Ketojan as an example (mistakenly, since unlike other Saarebas he isn't actually mute.)

I agree that Sandal might be more intelligent than he seems. He could just have hearing difficulties. Certainly he has extraordinary abilities, even if he does not demonstrate a great deal of verbal faculty (not to say he doesn't have any of the latter, just that he doesn't demonstrate that he does.) Though even then he could be criticised as playing up to the stereotype that everyone with apparent learning difficulties is a savant.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 26 avril 2013 - 03:29 .

[Blazomancer]

We had Brogan Dace in Golems of Amgarrak; though not exactly with mental disability, it was evident that he was addled by lyrium exposure. Still he seemed a good shot with his sword and shield. May be a similar sort of character can be implemented who might have learning difficulties in other fields, but is a swordsman of exceptional skill or say a mage that enjoys everything 'healing' just like Sandal enjoys enchantment.

I think this can be great if written well. I mean, such a character can even be a major companion rather than a low cost and repeating the same few phrases sort of character. The interactions/dialogue with that individual might not be the same as with a so called clinically normal companion, but it can still provide insight into that person's opinions about the events in Thedas, about how things go on in such a person's mind, and the frustrations felt reacting to the society as Jillabender above mentioned.

In a universe where a savant like Sandal can decimate lots of darkspawn singlehandedly, I don't see any reason why a similar character can't exist, who is battle-efficient, and yet have the innocence and simple mind of a mentally challenged individual. It would probably be a hard task to write such a charcater effectively, but I'd surely be interested.

[Deebo305]

Ander seems pretty borderline in both Awakening and DA2

[The Spirit of Dance]

So... pretty much a human character with a vocabulary as big as our mabaris.

[RebelAgainstSin81]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I'm curious, do people want a half-wit along because "HAHA he's retarded! Lets laugh because funny" or because he/she could instead stand in for the dog as a nicely ornamental object that occasionally brings you stuff? Including a mentally handicapped person for depth is counterintuitive (unless done extremely well) and this doesn't seem to be what anyone here is arguing for anyway. And the idea that we should use someone with a mental disability as a stand in for a pet makes me want to vomit on my keyboard.

I thought that is what I was suggesting, including a realistic person that would not be used as a caricature of people with disabilities, but would also bring a different perspective to the cast of characters in situations. Maybe I wasn't being clear enough. 

[RebelAgainstSin81]

Also, there are plenty of people with disabilities than can complete sentences and have conversations just fine. I'm almost convinced now that a character with a mental disability is almost necessary, for no other reason than to educate people that not all forms of mental disability result in extreme mental retardation.

[Melca36]

Sejborg wrote...

How about a companion like Hodor (from ASOIAF) or that enchantment dude. A character that don't need much writing because all they do is say the same word again and again. I believe a character like that is low cost but they are nice to have none the less, just so there is more options as for the companions you bring along. Sorta like the dog but just a half-wit.

I think it would be interesting. What do you think?

Im really not interested in them wasting resources over something like that,

[Fredward]

Sejborg wrote...
Back to topic. I don't think Hodor or Sandal is offensive at all. I'm not sure why you find them so offensive or why you assume a companion like that would be offensive? Please try and explain this to me instead of just asking questions and assuming that I have some cruel intentions by suggesting a half wit as a companion. 

You phrase things ****tily. I now get that you're not actually actively trying to compare someone with a mental disability with an animal. Though a lot of your posts in this thread still comes across as prejudiced (albeit prejudice born of ignorance), just so yah know.

As for the idea; no. I don't know how well someone with a mental disability can be portrayed as a full blown companion without a lot of resources spent on them and I don't want to see a person portrayed as even vaguely analogous to a dog.

I'd rather see a companion with a physical disability, ME did it very well and I don't think DA has given much attention to inclusivity when it comes to this.

[Battlebloodmage]

I'm not a big fan of these characters. Although a completely mute character would also be interesting. They can't talk, so they need to verbalize some other ways.

[Sejborg]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
You phrase things ****tily. I now get that you're not actually actively trying to compare someone with a mental disability with an animal. Though a lot of your posts in this thread still comes across as prejudiced (albeit prejudice born of ignorance), just so yah know. 

Not really. From the moment you entered this thread you have taken my comments out of context and for some reason just assumed that I had some sinister motives. That you jump to conclusions and start fighting a straw man is your own problem. It would suit you to keep a clear head when discussing. People that want to be offended, will be offended no matter how I express myself. 

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
As for the idea; no. I don't know how well someone with a mental disability can be portrayed as a full blown companion without a lot of resources spent on them and I don't want to see a person portrayed as even vaguely analogous to a dog.

A companion that is pretty much unable to make a sound don't cost a lot of ressources. 

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
I'd rather see a companion with a physical disability, ME did it very well and I don't think DA has given much attention to inclusivity when it comes to this.

Sure. Bioware could add a companion with a missing arm or whatever physicial disability that makes sense in this specific setting. But that is another topic. 

[jillabender]

Sejborg wrote...

Where do this come from? Why the hell do people think I want mentally disabled to not be respected as people?

I didn't think you were actually condoning disrespectful treatment of people with disabilities, but I take issue with your statement "I could care less if a character is an accurate portrayal of something," because I believe that misleading depictions of people with intellectual disabilities can be very harmful.

I also take issue with the idea that portraying a character with an intellectual disability and severe language impairment would require less effort than a non-disabled character on the part of the writers. I don't believe that it's possible to do justice to a character with an intellectual disability or to portray him or her as a complex individual without devoting the same care and attention to the character that one would a non-disabled character. But if all you meant was that a character who speaks and vocalizes little might require less time spent on voice recording, I suppose that could be true.

I think some people may have been bothered by the idea that a disabled character would fulfill a similar function to the dog in the game simply because it brings up uncomfortable associations that you didn't intend. In my time at the group home I mentioned, I became very aware that even well-intentioned people can end up treating people with developmental disabilities, intellectual disabilities, or cognitive delays more like pets rather than people, without even being aware of it. I don't believe there's anyone for whom it doesn't take some conscious effort to avoid unintentionally treating people who are different in ways that are patronizing - myself included.

RebelAgainstSin81 wrote...

Also, there are plenty of people with disabilities than can complete sentences and have conversations just fine. I'm almost convinced now that a character with a mental disability is almost necessary, for no other reason than to educate people that not all forms of mental disability result in extreme mental retardation.

Thank you for addressing that misconception. It's very difficult to generalize about people with mental disabilities, or even about people with a particular category of mental disability or a particular diagnosis, because although they share some experiences in common, no two people are affected by a disability in exactly the same way.

Modifié par jillabender, 26 avril 2013 - 11:01 .

[Sejborg]

jillabender wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Where do this come from? Why the hell do people think I want mentally disabled to not be respected as people?

I didn't think you were actually condoning disrespectful treatment of people with disabilities, but I take issue with your statement "I could care less if a character is an accurate portrayal of something," because I believe that misleading depictions of people with intellectual disabilities can be very harmful. 

I believe self-inflicted censorship is also very harmful. In an effort to not misrepresent or harm anyone what so ever, people have now started to ask for some things to not be included - irregardless if that something very well could be quite interesting. This half wit I propose wouldn't have any clinical diagnosis. This is set in a fantasy setting and the character would just be unable to say anything else than one word. That is just how this character is born. The character wouldn't be a representation of the "mentally disabled community" anymore than Sandal or Hodor is. "He's a bit simple" as Bodahn puts it. How harmful is that representation?

And as to your fear of this character misrepresenting and causing harm to the mentally disabled; if people are looking to videogames for education and enlightenment then I believe we have truly found the half-wits. If you know what I mean? 

jillabender wrote...
I also take issue with the idea that portraying a character with an intellectual disability and severe language impairment would require less effort than a non-disabled character on the part of the writers. I don't believe that it's possible to do justice to a character with an intellectual disability or to portray him or her as a complex individual without devoting the same care and attention to the character that one would a non-disabled character. But if all you meant was that a character who speaks and vocalizes little might require less time spent on voice recording, I suppose that could be true.

It do require less from the writer as well. When the writer has decided upon the personality of the character, then the writer just needs to add an amount of the word decided upon and how he would like the word expressed by the voice actor. Coming up with real sentences is more complicated. 

jillabender wrote...
I think some people may have been bothered by the idea that a disabled character would fulfill a similar function to the dog in the game simply because it brings up uncomfortable associations that you didn't intend. In my time at the group home I mentioned, I became very aware that even well-intentioned people can end up treating people with developmental disabilities, intellectual disabilities, or cognitive delays more like pets rather than people, without even being aware of it. I don't believe there's anyone for whom it doesn't take some conscious effort to avoid unintentionally treating people who are different in ways that are patronizing - myself included.

Yeah. I don't know why some people think the half-wit should serve as a dog. That is just a straw man argument. As for the other things. The half-wit could still very react to how you treated him you know. Perhaps he wouldn't like it if the player was patronizing or whatever the writer decides for his personality. 

Modifié par Sejborg, 27 avril 2013 - 12:09 .

[Pyce]

I think that people need to calm down with the "half-wit is offensive". A learning disability is no worse and probably alot better to have in a society than a mentally disturbed person. Schizophrenia is by far one of the worse conditions to have. In a world that makes you go insane is a nightmare. But most games have some sort of a mentally deranged individual in them. Alot of times its someone we kill instead of helping them. It's a game.
Nobody is perfect and people come in alot of different flavors. Having someone in my party who is not that bright but can hold their own is cool with me if they fit and I like them.