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Fighting Nihilism - The Catalyst and the Solutions


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#1
CosmicGnosis

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*These are some ideas I've been working with. I don't have a completely coherent theory, but I wanted to share this with you. It's basically a combination of various threads I've read and my own thoughts. Obvious inspiration from Ieldra, JShepppp, and MyChemicalBromance.

Note: I use the word "inevitable" a lot in this post.*


The Catalyst is trying to save organic life in the Milky Way from everlasting obscurity. In the Mass Effect universe, organics always build synthetics. After synthetics are built, they have the potential to achieve self-awareness. If they achieve self-awareness, synthetics should be granted the rights of personhood. Organics fear this possibility for various reasons (philosophical, political, social, etc.), and synthetics don't understand this fear, at least not initially. Thus the conflict begins.

Synthetics are created to be superior to organics. Every case is unique, of course, but synthetics as a whole are generally smarter, stronger, etc. They don't suffer from organic weaknesses. In other words, they are better equipped to survive in our universe. Organics are extremely vulnerable to cosmic catastrophes. Synthetics are not. Synthetics can easily outlive organics. Synthetic life is the future, not organic life.

The Catalyst was created to protect organic life from their synthetic creations. The Catalyst is meddling with the "natural order". It seems that the Milky Way should have already been overtaken by synthetic life long ago. The Catalyst has been artificially delaying this inevitability. The question is, "Why?" Why should the Catalyst care about organic life? Why not allow synthetics to take their place as the premier form of life? Frankly, the Catalyst doesn't have a satisfying answer. It was simply created to preserve organic life. There is no deeper reason. The Catalyst has been assigned a task, and that task is to combat the inevitable irrelevance of organic life. The task itself suggests that organic life has some kind of value. The Catalyst is fighting organic nihilism.

The successful deployment of the Crucible screws up everything. The Catalyst has lost. Organic life is doomed. The Crucible has three functions:

1. Destruction of all synthetic life. For a time, organics will again be free to exist like they always have. But synthetics will be built again, the conflict will return, and there will be nobody to save organic life. Synthetics will win. Why, then, does the Catalyst accept this as a solution? Well, it doesn't have much of a choice. If Shepard chooses Destroy, the Catalyst can't stop him. It's possible, though, that the Catalyst gives organics the benefit of the doubt. They are, after all, more resourceful than it had realized. There is a small hope that organics will find a solution.

2. Control the Reapers. The Catalyst admits that its Reaper solution was never ideal. It was merely delaying the inevitable. The Catalyst has been searching for a more permanent solution. It has not found one. It is possible, however, that a synthetic with an organic perspective might be able to find one. The Catalyst is at least somewhat willing to hand over the Reapers to Shepard. The leaked scripts emphasize this point; the Catalyst outright states that Shepard will search for a solution to the problem.

3. Synthesize all life in the galaxy. This is the best solution yet. It levels the playing field. Organics are given the ability to adapt like synthetics. Because organics can more easily integrate themselves with technology, their chances of survival have risen dramatically. Such a development was inevitable, by the way. Given enough time, it was inevitable that organics would merge themselves with their tools. It's the logical end to a process that begins with the dawn of organic intelligence. Primitive organics climb the evolutionary ladder by making tools. Their tools eventually become like them, and then they join as one. Synthesis is the final step before the leap into a complete unknown. Everything changes after that leap. For the first time, creator and created are truly equal. Synthesis provides the most hope of all the solutions. It is not the solution, but it creates the best conditions for finding one. There are new possibilities. Thus, Synthesis represents another victory against despair and inevitable doom.

Of course, no matter how hard we try to survive, the entire universe will die a slow and agonizing death:

www.futuretimeline.net/beyond.htm#dark

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 25 avril 2013 - 01:17 .


#2
Argolas

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Well said. The premise that synthetic life will always seek to exterminate organic life has been proven many times over, the rest follows logically.

#3
CosmicGnosis

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Argolas wrote...

Well said. The premise that synthetic life will always seek to exterminate organic life has been proven many times over, the rest follows logically.


I tried to be fair. I presented everything from the perspective of the Catalyst, so Synthesis is considered the best answer to the problem, but I also included some hope for Destroy.

#4
Steelcan

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The issue with this is that the Crucible proves that organics are not doomed. If they can successfully challenge the Reapers, the granddaddy of all synthetics, they don't have much to fear from anything else.

Furthermore I see no evidence to support that organics ARE doomed to synthetics, whatsoever.

And thanks for the downer ending.

#5
Steelcan

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Also, on a note to your downer conclusion, have you seen some of the recent research that suggests that Dark Energy is not accelerating the galaxy? Instead we are simply expanding into something else that light has not reached yet?

Bit more optimistic IMO. Maybe it will pan out.

#6
Phatose

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Unless we are expanding into somewhere thermodynamics doesn't apply, the universe is still just as mortal as us.

#7
CosmicGnosis

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Steelcan wrote...

Also, on a note to your downer conclusion, have you seen some of the recent research that suggests that Dark Energy is not accelerating the galaxy? Instead we are simply expanding into something else that light has not reached yet?

Bit more optimistic IMO. Maybe it will pan out.


I have not heard of this research...

#8
Steelcan

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CosmicGnosis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Also, on a note to your downer conclusion, have you seen some of the recent research that suggests that Dark Energy is not accelerating the galaxy? Instead we are simply expanding into something else that light has not reached yet?

Bit more optimistic IMO. Maybe it will pan out.


I have not heard of this research...

. I remember listening to a lecture on it a few months ago.

#9
The Night Mammoth

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I'd never pick Synthesis simply because I don't want to nearly invalidate anything I actually did concerning the relationship between organics and synthetics.

It's also really boring and confusing. Organics and synthetics are friends now and the playing field is level. Hurray? Both of those things were true before though, I though that was the point behind two whole characters and the Rannoch arc and the big decision at the end.

Organics can interface with technology better. Okay. Why should I care? This has absolutely no bearing on anything I've just done, it's not important to any theme or message or idea that anyone in the story has talked about.

People are covered in glowing circuitry. What is this supposed to mean? It looks f*cking stupid, but that's besides the point.

The Reapers are also our friends now. This is just... why? Are people randomly okay with this all of a sudden? Wont this begin a bunch of reprisal attacks and cause huge devastation? What are the Reapers then? What do they do? Why are they helping? Where is the Catalyst? What's happening to our DNA? What are the husks up to now? Have I just caused the eventual collapse of society by making everyone immortal?

The synthetic organic problem is fixed. How? It's bad enough that the problem itself isn't explained properly, but the solution isn't either. What an impact it had too. I only heard about this galaxy defining conflict five minutes ago and it's already fixed? Shisk and Gavorn's epic feud had more of a lasting impression.

I'd never really pick synthesis because it's just a mismatch of half-baked ideas and concepts that are just laid out there but not commented on or explained. Things happen, without explanation as to why, or how, and ignoring the ridiculous things like Shepard jumping into a beam or glowing clothes, it's just really bland. Far less of an intelligent comment or observation on anything and more of lots of things BioWare thought would look and sound really deep, but aren't.

See, I don't really play Mass Effect because I want to think about stuff (Auld Wulf's shaking his head, if there's enough room up his arse, that is).
Yeah, there's some nice side-plots and interesting characters that do make me stop and ponder ideas, like Legion, and the genophage, but I mainly play Mass Effect because it's a big sci-fi romp with dialogue and heaps of moderately well used tropes. Hot aliens? Gotcha. Awesome ship? Check. Killer robots? You bet. The ending gives off the impression that they were trying far too hard to break the mold and seem intelligent, and it comes off incredibly forced, and, to reuse a term, half-baked. Spinning too many plates, saying lots of things but not saying anything really worthwhile.

Personal preference and all, but I like it much better when people don't over complicate and keep things nice and simple. Like Mass Effect 1. Good plot, straight and to the point, had all lovely things I noted above and still had a thing or two to sit and mull over if I wanted. It didn't muddle it what tried to say or drag on being clever.

So yeah, stop trying so hard. Sometimes people don't want to be overburdened. Or if you really want to, introduce the premise at the beginning and hammer it home. It might look like you're smelling your own farts like Irrational, but at least you make a really good game while you do.

(Sorry for that slightly pointless rant, I do actually agree with you most of the time Gnosis, in spirit if not literally with every word, though I'm more of the opinion that no ending has any more virtue than the rest, so don't choose them.)

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 25 avril 2013 - 02:37 .


#10
Taboo

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You can't honestly look at any of those EC endings and tell me it isn't sugar shot out of a cannon right into our collective faces. The respective money shot being whatever you want it to be. That isn't nihilism.

Nihilism and Skepticism is my area of study. The ME3 ending is a crap-shoot at best. It's a mish mash of philosophers and bad concepts.

You're arguing whether or not something will happen in FICTION. If it doesn't happen in someone's canon it doesn't happen. There is no best ending, as stated by the Bioware staff. This isn't an philosophy exercise in college meant to titillate all the hipsters.

It's a video game, meant to be played from a chair on a TV while you shovel Cheetos and Mountain Dew down your throat.

#11
CosmicGnosis

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Ahh, cyborgs, AI, and galactic connections. All speculative, of course.

www.futuretimeline.net/beyond.htm#1000000

#12
CosmicGnosis

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@Night Mammoth

I agree that the story doesn't exactly prepare us for this type of ending. The mood is different, and too many out-of-game concepts need to be understood. The pre-EC Catalyst conversation is atrocious. Almost no argument is made.

#13
Ymladdych

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If the Catalyst is trying to fight Nihilism, he's once again showing a propensity for logical fallacy, since you can't fight an objective truth with a subjective opinion. Just because he (or you) find synthesized life more "worthwhile" or "superior" than pure organic or pure synthetic doesn't make it true for the Universe, much less true for other subjective points of view, such as mine, or anybody else's.

Do you know why? Because the Catalyst (or you) would still be using standards that YOU think are important, but may or may not actually *be* important.

Case in point: "Overlord" and the Illusive Man's ME3 experiments prove that both Shepard and the Reaper framework can be hacked. If all galactic life is integrated into that framework, then they're all vulnerable. All it would take is one tech savvy visitor from another galaxy...or maybe the Leviathans. Every other positive to Synthesis would be irrelevant in comparison.

And before anyone writes another long-winded excuse as to why this could never happen, I'm going to refer ya'll to the Stargazer scene.

If this Reaper-based super meta-organism still exists in their time, why is the Stargazer telling the kid anything? Couldn't he just download it from the network? Why would details be lost if they could access EDI and everyone else's memories? Plus, if everyone's immortal and free from illness, why does Stargazer sound like a frail old man?

And before anyone writes another long-winded excuse about the "true" nature of Synthesis, I have a question: if all ya'll Synthesizers can't agree on what it IS even with all your EC meta-gaming ('cause I see a lot of different opinions, even amongst supporters), then how is Shepard qualified to wager ALL GALACTIC LIFE on something he couldn't possibly understand at the time he needs to make the choice?

It's especially egregious when you remember that part of the conversation goes something like this:

Catalyst: "Well, we've tried a similar solution in the past, but it failed. Trust me, though, I know it'll work THIS time!"

A pro-Synthesis Shepard's response: "It will affect all life, you say? Woo, hoo-hoo! I'm in, baby!"

This is wrong on so many levels, the least of which is Shepard's critical thinking skills. When you consider that we have laws about ethical genetic modification and experimentation now, and MEU lore confirms that both the Alliance and the Council still have such laws in effect - Shepard is not only violating his oaths as a soldier and committing treason against both levels of government, but he's also making himself a war criminal of immeasurable proportions.

A war crime, by the way, where pro-Synthesizers can't possibly predict the consequences, even with all their EC meta-gaming, because they don't even really know what they're doing to the galaxy, as evidenced by the high variance of their headcanons. (Some say it's universally networked communication; some say no, that it's just giving synthetics organic features; others think it blends people together like the Thorian, where they feel each other's pain and thoughts.)

Destroyers, on the other hand, show no such variance.

Pre-EC, 98% of Destroyers would tell you: "I killed 1% of the galactic population so the other 99% could live free from the Reapers."
Post-EC, 98% of Destroyers would tell you: "I killed 1% of the galactic population so the other 99% could live free from the Reapers."

And before anyone writes another long-winded tirade about, "How could *any* of those versions of Synthesis be bad?!" Well, ignoring the fact that Shepard was trusted to preserve a way of life, not change everybody on his own whims, and also ignoring the fact that understanding doesn't bring peace, only acceptance and/or geographical separation...

There's an apt quote from Mr. Nihilist himself, Friedrich Nietzsche, "When you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

In other words, ONE danger of universal understanding is that it would be simultaneous and multidirectional, NOT unidirectional, and unless the Reaper framework imposes some modicum of control, this super meta-organism would not discriminate "good" understanding from "bad" understanding. So, synthetics might finally understand organics, but so would everyone understand the pleasure a serial killer gets from cutting people up. Or, how a Banshee felt getting Reaperfied before she started killing everyone, and how she feels about both things now that she's "restored." Wives would finally understand that their husbands hate That One Question, because, yes, they really DO look fat in that dress. Boyfriends would receive confirmation that yes, size matters and they're smaller than the last 30 guys she's been with.

Do these seem like things that would bring harmony? Really? To me, they seem like things that would destroy psyches and relationships quicker than a slug froths from salt. Shepard, himself, even reflects on the potential psychic trauma of such an event during Legion's ME2 loyalty mission. I think I'm estimating low when I say that easily, 5% of the population would off itself in the first week...unless the Reapers started imposing behavioral controls.

Just to put these numbers in perspective, if Earth's population was cut in half by the Reapers, 5% of 5.5 billion would be 275 million people. On Earth alone, and if they only kill themselves. The irony is that I saw a pro-Synthesis, self-proclaimed paragon of empathy, write something to the effect of, "Too bad...not my problem. That would be their choice." Oh, yeah. Your hands are clean, huh? How nice for you...

Now, I'm stating psychological facts here. I'm sure Synthesizers will point to the EC epilogue and say, "But that didn't happen!" To which I'll reply, "Hmmm, you're right. I wonder WHY?!" In spite of Jessica Merizan's earnest quotation from "A Tale of Two Cities," I'm afraid I'm gonna have to go with Occam's Razor on this one (the Reapers are imposing control), especially when the alternative requires a crapload of headcanoned and inconsistent rationalizations that even pro-Synthesizers can't agree on.

And finally, as a parting sentiment to those forumites who scorn Destroy for its blue collar, simplistic appeal, I leave you with another quote: "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes
a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite
direction." - Albert Einstein

#14
Giga Drill BREAKER

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Argolas wrote...

Well said. The premise that synthetic life will always seek to exterminate organic life has been proven many times over, the rest follows logically.


Where has it been proven?

#15
MyChemicalBromance

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This article was linked in the website you linked. Perhaps Synthesis is the first "big" step towards this, considering how widespread it is.

(Relevant to the Universe ending)

Modifié par MyChemicalBromance, 25 avril 2013 - 06:40 .


#16
MegaSovereign

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Taboo-XX wrote...

You can't honestly look at any of those EC endings and tell me it isn't sugar shot out of a cannon right into our collective faces. The respective money shot being whatever you want it to be. That isn't nihilism.

Nihilism and Skepticism is my area of study. The ME3 ending is a crap-shoot at best. It's a mish mash of philosophers and bad concepts.

You're arguing whether or not something will happen in FICTION. If it doesn't happen in someone's canon it doesn't happen. There is no best ending, as stated by the Bioware staff. This isn't an philosophy exercise in college meant to titillate all the hipsters.

It's a video game, meant to be played from a chair on a TV while you shovel Cheetos and Mountain Dew down your throat.


The feel-good EC epilogues which comes right after the "your fate is set in stone" Catalyst confrontation makes the whole ending feel tonally bipolar.

I don't think it's nihilistic but it's definitely anti-climatic.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 25 avril 2013 - 06:43 .


#17
PsyrenY

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CosmicGnosis wrote...

*snip*


This is perhaps the most concise yet complete summary of the Catalyst's thought process I have read yet. Kudos and bookmarked :D


Taboo-XX wrote...
It's a video game, meant to be played from a chair on a TV while you shovel Cheetos and Mountain Dew down your throat.


I'm honestly surprised at such a limited perspective coming from you. Video games are nothing more than one more medium of conveying expression, and all media are capable of conveying meaningful ones. That dreaded word - art - can be found in any form of communication between one human and another.

I know from your posts that you care about more in your games than a simple cheetos-and-mountain-dew diversion. Why pretend otherwise?

#18
Argolas

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DinoSteve wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Well said. The premise that synthetic life will always seek to exterminate organic life has been proven many times over, the rest follows logically.


Where has it been proven?


The most intelligent being in the galaxy should be a sufficient source, don't you think?

Synthetics must, by definition, surpass organics. Organics will always panick and try to kill them. Synthetics will  always answer with annihilation.

Modifié par Argolas, 25 avril 2013 - 08:03 .


#19
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Who cares when the universe ends or if it ends. I'll be dead well before then.

I think the Catayst has been doing a little natural selection for a cycle that would eventually kick his butt and end the reapers. Unintentionally of course, but still. "The Created will always rebel against their creators." Thus organics will eventually wipe out the reapers from the galaxy. It is inevitable. We are more resourceful than the Catalyst realized. It will happen unless some idiot picks synthesis.

#20
Yestare7

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Taboo-XX wrote...

It's a video game, meant to be played from a chair on a TV while you shovel Cheetos and Mountain Dew down your throat.


+1, but I must note: Mass Effect has affected me in a way no other game has ever done.


Also, I play MEHEM. What is this catalyst you keep referring to?:wizard:

Modifié par Yestare7, 25 avril 2013 - 08:54 .


#21
Mangalores

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Steelcan wrote...

Also, on a note to your downer conclusion, have you seen some of the recent research that suggests that Dark Energy is not accelerating the galaxy? Instead we are simply expanding into something else that light has not reached yet?

...


The sole observational evidence of Dark energy and its very definition _is_ that it is some unknown stuff that _accelerates_ expansion of _spacetime_.
Dark energy is plainly a placeholder term for the observation that some force/energy/field we do not see or know of directly counteracts gravity and increases acceleration of expansion instead of it slowing down as expected if solely gravity would take its course.

What you describe is part of the standard model of the universe in cosmology aka that the edge of the visible universe is solely the event horizon of light that could reach us since the big bang which is why at the edge of our perception we will always see the _birth_ of galaxies near the big bang and the closer we get to our point of view the older it gets as the light beams are synchronized closer to our own time (don't need as much time to travel). The farthest point of the visible universe is always the point that light didn't reach, yet, until quite recently.

So maybe there is an alternative hypothesis how the observation of accelerated spacetime expansion is explained, but it essentially would invalidate Dark energy as a concept and also render a lot of cosmological observation false since the Dark energy concept arises from those observations.

#22
Ridwan

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We proved that the murdering kid was wrong when we made the Quarians and the Geth made peace with each other.

#23
Argolas

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M25105 wrote...

We proved that the murdering kid was wrong when we made the Quarians and the Geth made peace with each other.


That is a mere alliance of convenience. The Geth may have understood, but how long until Xen tries to ensalve them again, or Gerrel tries to kill them? Even if they don't, there will always be Xens and Gerrels. Yes, peace can be achieved for that time, but it requires more to make that count. Synthesis provides what is missing- compassion. Only after that is achieved, there can be true peace.

#24
Ridwan

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Argolas wrote...

M25105 wrote...

We proved that the murdering kid was wrong when we made the Quarians and the Geth made peace with each other.


That is a mere alliance of convenience. The Geth may have understood, but how long until Xen tries to ensalve them again, or Gerrel tries to kill them? Even if they don't, there will always be Xens and Gerrels. Yes, peace can be achieved for that time, but it requires more to make that count. Synthesis provides what is missing- compassion. Only after that is achieved, there can be true peace.


If victorious you think the Geth would actually screw this up? They just made a lot of plus point with the entire galaxy and then to throw it all away cause of some stupid reason, won't fly. The Quarians too will have learn what it means to not listen and will try and work for them. And if war happens again, then so be it. At least they tried, at least they made an effort to overcome their difference and live together rather than all be dumped into the genetic melting pot to create green freaks.

True peace at the cost of our souls you mean, real peace is when you overcome the obstacles without sacrificing who you are. Synthesis is basically the entire galaxy bending their backs to the whim of a genocidal psychotics.

#25
Steelcan

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M25105 wrote...

We proved that the murdering kid was wrong when we made the Quarians and the Geth made peace with each other.

. We proved him wrong when the quarians blew the geth out of the sky.