236 réponses à ce sujet

[CDR David Shepard]

I'm sure this has been brought up...probably many times...but I have never seen a post about it.

While the writers may not have planned this far ahead...

...Anderson theories that the information stored in the beacon on Eden Prime could be blue prints for some ancient weapon of mass destruction.

Of course...that wasn't the information in that beacon...but the crucible itself was indeed blueprints of some ancient weapon of mass destruction found in the prothean archives on Mars.

I just find it odd that I have never seen anyone mention that when they complain about the crucible being a deus ex machina.

[k.lalh]

I believe that it's not so much the crucible itself that is portrayed as a Deus Ex Machina, more so the nature of the catalyst (pre leviathan ofc) and how it functions.

For example in MEHEM, it gets rid of that Deus Ex Machina feel, and the crucible just blows up Reapers, which is exactly what we've assumed since the start of ME3.

(Note: I do not endorse MEHEM in any way, shape, or form, it's just an example)

[The Night Mammoth]

There's no 'may' about it, they didn't, and they've said as much more than once.

It probably hasn't been brought up because it doesn't add anything, it was an off-hand remark meant to give a potential motivation for Saren.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if people started using this as 'proof' that the series was meticulously planned from the beginning.

[dreamgazer]

A true DEM is never mentioned in the preceding text, and both the Crucible and Catalyst were consistently mentioned. It doesn't excuse the convenience of either plot device, but there you go.

[CDR David Shepard]

I simply used the word "may"...because I just do not know whether they did or not. I was just taking a neutral stance on that topic...since it wasn't the point of the thread.

My point is simply that the idea of the protheans having blueprints for some ancient weapon of mass destruction has been there since the beginning.

Modifié par CDR David Shepard, 25 avril 2013 - 11:16 .

[dreamgazer]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Though I wouldn't be surprised if people started using this as 'proof' that the series was meticulously planned from the beginning.

I dunno, I could see them having the rough idea of "a super weapon to defeat the Reapers that requires the Citadel" from the beginning.

[David7204]

Yeah, it is. I really do not like the Crucible. There is some foreshadowing, which is better than nothing, but it's not enough.

Anyway, even if it's not a DEM, that sure as hell doesn't mean it's good. Even if it was introduced at the very beginning of ME 1, a generic 'kill the Reapers' weapon would be very mediocre.

Modifié par David7204, 26 avril 2013 - 12:12 .

[grey_wind]

Its nature as a DEM depends on whether you're judging it by ME3 alone or the entire trilogy.

In ME3 itself, it's introduced sufficiently early enough to not qualify as a Deus ex Machina.
However, if you're looking at the trilogy as one entire story, then you can make a pretty decent argument that it is one, as it pops up with zero foreshadowing at the start of the third act when the major conflict has begun and the protagonists have no way out.

[Wolfva2]

Wellll, a Deus ex machina is a plot device which resolves an almost unsolvable problem. Honestly, the way the Reapers were set up you pretty much NEED a DEM to beat them. I mean, an almost invulnerable foe who outnumbers you? Yeah, DEM to the rescue.

At least it wasn't as transparently done as Stephen King did in 'The Stand'.

[Megaton_Hope]

I would say it's a Deus Ex Machina for sure. In the first game, there was no solution at all to the Reaper threat but keeping the Reapers from arriving. That was what the battle at the Citadel was all about. What Shepard finds by piecing together all the Prothean information is 1. the location of Ilos and 2. the inexplicable ability to speak Prothean, although Liara (who has directly interfaced with his mind to uncover this information, and thereby experienced both the beacon message and the Cipher that decodes it) cannot. So we go through the first game, and the second game, still no solution to the Reapers. (Although Shepard defeats the Collectors, who were guided by a Reaper.)

We get to the third game, it turns out there's something that was not previously studied in the Prothean archive found on Mars, that something is a device that can defeat the Reapers, then it's built and used after all galactic civilization stands on the brink of destruction.

In ME3 it's more like Chekov's Gun, though, since it's hanging on the wall through the whole game and only fired at the end.

[SpamBot2000]

grey_wind wrote...

Its nature as a DEM depends on whether you're judging it by ME3 alone or the entire trilogy.

In ME3 itself, it's introduced sufficiently early enough to not qualify as a Deus ex Machina.
However, if you're looking at the trilogy as one entire story, then you can make a pretty decent argument that it is one, as it pops up with zero foreshadowing at the start of the third act when the major conflict has begun and the protagonists have no way out.

This.

[Mangalores]

While the Catalyst is mentioned beforehand, it is actually just mentioned as a part you need for the Crucible to work. In that context the Citadel, not the Catalyst itself is foreshadows as the big antenna you need to do whatever the Crucible does.

The Catalyst in the form of the Starchild proposing three instead of one option is pure DEM. As someone else mentioned you already accomplished everything in the scene with TIM and Anderson. Turning pushing a button into a long dialogue with a formerly unknown force is kind of how Greek drama usually worked out.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

People like to complain, even if it means they'll have to ignore facts.

[David7204]

The Catalyst is absolutely not a DEM.

How does the introduction of the Catalyst solve anything? It doesn't. The Crucible could have just fired and killed all the Reapers. The Catalyst introduces new problems, not solutions.

Modifié par David7204, 26 avril 2013 - 08:10 .

[SpamBot2000]

David7204 wrote...

The Catalyst is absolutely not a DEM.

How does the introduction of the Catalyst solve anything? It doesn't. The Crucible could have just fired and killed all the Reapers. The Catalyst introduces new problems, not solutions.

The Catalyst solves the problem of there being a Shepard and a continuing Mass Effect universe. 

[Indy_S]

David7204 wrote...

The Catalyst is absolutely not a DEM.

How does the introduction of the Catalyst solve anything? It doesn't. The Crucible could have just fired and killed all the Reapers. The Catalyst introduces new problems, not solutions.

But the elevator is. 'The Crucible's not firing. The only person who could reach it fails. How do we solve this?' And then a platform raises Shepard into the air.

[David7204]

That would only be true if players expected the Crucible to not fire. If they expected it to be worthless. And they don't. Suppose you paused the conversation right after Hackett says the Crucible isn't firing. If you asked players if the Crucible is going to be activated somehow or not, they would almost certainly answer yes, despite there being nothing happening right at that moment. They know the story wouldn't focus so much on it so much to have it be worthless.

Modifié par David7204, 26 avril 2013 - 08:28 .

[Indy_S]

David7204 wrote...

That would only be true if players expected the Crucible to not fire. If they expected it to be worthless. And they don't. Suppose you paused the conversation right after Hackett says the Crucible isn't firing. If you asked players if the Crucible is going to be activated somehow or not, they would almost certainly answer yes, despite there being nothing happening right at that moment. They know the story wouldn't focus so much on it so much to have it be worthless.

Bull. I expected Bilbo to not die at the Battle of Five Armies because Bilbo still had a character arc to resolve. But the eagles were still a DEM.

[David7204]

It's not the same. The Crucible was foreshadowed as having something unknown, something mysterious, something hidden, right from the beginning. I doubt many players at all expected it to just be a Reaper-buster and have that be the end of it. It was expected that there be another component there. Whereas we don't expect Bilbo to have any abilities or assets aside from what we directly see.

[Indy_S]

I thought we were talking about the elevator. If I didn't make that clear, I'm sorry.

[David7204]

The elevator is a result of the Crucible not immediately working.

[Mangalores]

David7204 wrote...

The Catalyst is absolutely not a DEM.

How does the introduction of the Catalyst solve anything? It doesn't. The Crucible could have just fired and killed all the Reapers. The Catalyst introduces new problems, not solutions.

You get a literal deus lowered onto the stage without which the plot won't resolve and who subverts the end so it won't work without its divine consent. It's actually worse that the plot could have been resolved without this interruption.

I have to say, Shepard and Anderson dieing thinking they saved the world when they didn't would have been emotionally strong tragic end (even though a dick move) so this addendum is a pretty literal implementation of the deus ex machina.

Modifié par Mangalores, 26 avril 2013 - 09:02 .

[Indy_S]

The Crucible not working is a problem. The elevator is a solution. There is no alternate solution to this. The elevator is sudden and unexpected. For the three rules given here, it's a DEM.

[David7204]

The elevator is not 'unexpected' because we knew something had to go wrong. We knew something had to interfere with the Crucible being a superweapon with no complications and that something would be a solution, and that the solution would likely stem from the Crucible and Catalyst itself. Which it does. Something was going to go wrong and something, again, likely stemming from the Crucible, would provide a solution. The elevator does exactly that.

Modifié par David7204, 26 avril 2013 - 09:09 .