236 réponses à ce sujet

[Indy_S]

So you're saying that for the sake of drama, it's not a DEM? I don't think that's how it works...

[David7204]

It's saying it's not a DEM since it was expected for the Crucible not to work properly, and a solution to arise from the Crucible itself. And that's what happens. The elevator is not independent; it should be considered a part of the Crucible-Catalyst.

Modifié par David7204, 26 avril 2013 - 09:19 .

[Wolfva2]

I beg to differ David. I didn't expect the Crucible not to work. I honestly thought that, as Shep sat there next to the dead Anderson watching the Earth, there'd be a beam of light emanating from the Crucible, hitting the Mass Relays, and doing something to the Reapers. I figured something like a virus, but whatever. I was kind of confused when the white elevator appeared, with Shepard ascending to speak with 'God'.

When you think of it, the Catalyst most definately is a Deus ex machina....after alll, it's got godlike omniscience AND it's a machine....<rimshot>.

[Indy_S]

Well thank God the situation is solved by an ability we never knew the Crucible had.

[Indy_S]

Wolfva2 wrote...

I beg to differ David. I didn't expect the Crucible not to work. I honestly thought that, as Shep sat there next to the dead Anderson watching the Earth, there'd be a beam of light emanating from the Crucible, hitting the Mass Relays, and doing something to the Reapers. I figured something like a virus, but whatever. I was kind of confused when the white elevator appeared, with Shepard ascending to speak with 'God'.

When you think of it, the Catalyst most definately is a Deus ex machina....after alll, it's got godlike omniscience AND it's a machine....<rimshot>.

The Catalyst solves nothing. DEM's are solutions. The Catalyst is just a poorly executed twist.

[David7204]

That was always going to be the case. We always knew the Crucible wasn't just going to be a big weapon with no consequences. So it was either going to have unexpected abilities only revealed at the very end, or it would be worthless. Which would be stupid.

[Indy_S]

So if Shepard announced at that point he had the ability to fly up to next room, it wouldn't be a DEM? An ability that he just has and has never been confirmed or denied before and it happens to resolve the situation.

It's miles more stupid but no more a DEM than the elevator.

[David7204]

No...

We expected the unexpected from the Crucible. It's as simple as that. And the elevator should be consider part of the Crucible-Catalyst.

[Mangalores]

David7204 wrote...

The elevator is not 'unexpected' because we knew something had to go wrong. We knew something had to interfere with the Crucible being a superweapon with no complications and that something would be a solution, and that the solution would likely stem from the Crucible and Catalyst itself. Which it does. Something was going to go wrong and something, again, likely stemming from the Crucible, would provide a solution. The elevator does exactly that.

Why would we know that? The Crucible was in place, attached to the Catalyst aka Citadel. Everyone including Shepard and Anderson thought everything was done and the galaxy was saved. You are really extrapolating from drama that something had to go wrong because it has become common to add a plot twist to the end.

Based on the character's we have to conclude the Catalyst adds a problem that only the Catalyst can solve, the problem and the solution come from nothing.

[Indy_S]

The only thing we were ever told to expect from the Crucible is that it will release a lot of energy. What form that energy takes is where 'expect the unexpected' comes into it. Nothing about not firing. Nothing about an elevator. Assuming anything else might mean you're story-savvy but it doesn't count as credit against DEM.

[David7204]

Because stories do not do that. Ever. You don't have things go according to plan, because if you do, the plan becomes a spoiler. Stories always introduce new challenges and new information right up until the very end. There's no drama in watching things unfold exactly as characters 'tell' the audience they would unfold. (This is a major shortcoming in nearly all rewrites I've seen; they fail to keep introducing new challenges and information)

It doesn't matter what Shepard and Anderson think, because they don't know they're in a story. What matters is what players think.

Modifié par David7204, 26 avril 2013 - 09:47 .

[David7204]

Indy_S wrote...

The only thing we were ever told to expect from the Crucible is that it will release a lot of energy. What form that energy takes is where 'expect the unexpected' comes into it. Nothing about not firing. Nothing about an elevator. Assuming anything else might mean you're story-savvy but it doesn't count as credit against DEM.

We don't have to be explicitly told. It's inherent. It's information given to us by the nature of a story. We know the Crucible has something unexpected behind it. That information is every bit as valid as information explicitly given to us by characters or whatnot.

[SpamBot2000]

If you attempted to write a deus ex machina based on a textbook, you would come up with the Catalyst. I suspect that is what they in fact might have done.

The Greeks were in fact very familiar with the concept of Zeus. That never stopped him from being one.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 26 avril 2013 - 09:51 .

[David7204]

Yeah, that kind of argument is really going to sway me.

At the end of the day, 90% of the arguments about the Catalyst are garbage. It's just people trying to come up with a factual reason to back up their instinctive hatred of him.

Modifié par David7204, 26 avril 2013 - 09:51 .

[SpamBot2000]

David, no argument is going to sway you. You are not open to considering them. You are addicted to insistence.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 26 avril 2013 - 09:52 .

[David7204]

I wouldn't be arguing if I didn't believe I was right.

[SpamBot2000]

As I just edited the above, you are addicted to insisting things. The type of plot device that thing is is not really very relevant to anything.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 26 avril 2013 - 09:54 .

[Indy_S]

I'm with David there, though. The Catalyst is not a DEM. DEM's are solutions and the Catalyst solves nothing. It merely offers the solutions.

[David7204]

That's pretty much what an argument is. Insisting upon reasoning and facts and emotions and whatnot.

[SpamBot2000]

A winged Apollo springing up is not solving a problem of escape. It is just offering a ride to the protagonist who must hang onto him. Therefore not a DeM, right?

See, these things can be lawyered ad infinitum. The critic is a judge, and makes a judgment.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 26 avril 2013 - 09:57 .

[Mangalores]

David7204 wrote...

Because stories do not do that. Ever. You don't have things go according to plan, because if you do, the plan becomes a spoiler. Stories always introduce new challenges and new information right up until the very end. ...

Sorry, this is false. Plenty of stories play it straight. What you describe is actually a particular story formula that just happens (quite obnoxiously) to be the one currently favoured by Hollywood (aka the bad guy standing back up just to get shot a second time syndrome)

The not going according to plan is usually included in the execution of the plan, not tacked onto the end when the plan is supposed to have succeeded. With ME3 we literally have the cue for end credits before the end scene starts. That is not how 90% of stories work, that is how a specific kind of story twist is added and in this case not fittingly. And in most other cases it has become a cliché so the love interest or the best buddy can rescue the hero as well.

Modifié par Mangalores, 26 avril 2013 - 10:17 .

[Humakt83]

Catalyst is Diabolus Ex Machina masquerading as Deus Ex Machina.

He even appears to be literal god from the machine.

[SpamBot2000]

And the Catalyst is not creating any new problems for Shepard. It is presenting the problem of the author in stopping the momentum of the Mass Effect setting and expecting to coerce the player into siding with that author. It has no place in the dramatic structure of Mass Effect. The concern is strictly meta.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 26 avril 2013 - 10:01 .

[Indy_S]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

A winged Apollo springing up is not solving a problem of escape. It is just offering a ride to the protagonist who must hang onto him. Therefore not a DeM, right?

If he serves as any form of transportation for the protagonist, it is a solution. It is a DEM. Even if it is said earlier that Apollo is watching over them.

The Catalyst doesn't do anything but exposit.

[SpamBot2000]

Indy_S wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

A winged Apollo springing up is not solving a problem of escape. It is just offering a ride to the protagonist who must hang onto him. Therefore not a DeM, right?

If he serves as any form of transportation for the protagonist, it is a solution. It is a DEM. Even if it is said earlier that Apollo is watching over them.

The Catalyst doesn't do anything but exposit.

That is incorrect. It wakes Shepard and takes him to the Decision Fork.