236 réponses à ce sujet

[Indy_S]

Shepard wakes up by himself and they already are at the Decision Fork. He talks and points but that's it.

[SpamBot2000]

Indy_S wrote...

Shepard wakes up by himself and they already are at the Decision Fork. He talks and points but that's it.

"Wake up!" is clearly its opening line. And this is just the kind of getting bogged down into detail that is obstructing a fuller perception of the scene. The A, B, C choice does not exist without the Catalyst. If this was reality, we could assume that it does. But this is a case of storytelling, and is not to be judged by the same criteria as a real event.

What is happening is an Authorial persona appearing and soliciting the co-operation of the player with the authorial plan of terminating the setting, in exchange for recognition of game completion.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 26 avril 2013 - 10:18 .

[avenging_teabag]

David7204 wrote...

Yeah, it is. I really do not like the Crucible. There is some foreshadowing, which is better than nothing, but it's not enough.

Anyway, even if it's not a DEM, that sure as hell doesn't mean it's good. Even if it was introduced at the very beginning of ME 1, a generic 'kill the Reapers' weapon would be very mediocre.

This.

grey_wind wrote...

Its nature as a DEM depends on whether you're judging it by ME3 alone or the entire trilogy.

In ME3 itself, it's introduced sufficiently early enough to not qualify as a Deus ex Machina.
However, if you're looking at the trilogy as one entire story, then you can make a pretty decent argument that it is one, as it pops up with zero foreshadowing at the start of the third act when the major conflict has begun and the protagonists have no way out.

And this is really all that needs to be said re: OP. 

Modifié par avenging_teabag, 26 avril 2013 - 10:24 .

[Indy_S]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

"Wake up!" is clearly its opening line. And this is just the kind of getting bogged down into detail that is obstructing a fuller perception of the scene. The A, B, C choice does not exist without the Catalyst. If this was reality, we could assume that it does. But this is a case of storytelling, and is not to be judged by the same criteria as a real event.

What is happening is an Authorial persona appearing and soliciting the co-operation of the player with the authorial plan of terminating the setting, in exchange for recognition of game completion.

Sorry, I just watched a pre-EC ending where the first line is "Why are you here?"

The situation presented does not exist because of the Starbrat, he exists because the situation required explanation. It's still crappy, though.

[SpamBot2000]

Indy_S wrote...

The situation presented does not exist because of the Starbrat, he exists because the situation required explanation. It's still crappy, though.

That it is. Not sure what you mean by the situation requiring explanation though. The Crucible would have just worked to destroy the Reapers.

The Crucible not firing is just the reason for the entrance of the Catalyst. It's all part of the same gestalt, the ending that doesn't belong in Mass Effect. The Author-Reaper Complex.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 26 avril 2013 - 10:49 .

[Indy_S]

The situation I was referring to was just the decision chamber. The player has to be able to distinguish between their choices and the only way you could tell which was which and what each would do is because there is a guide.

And I would say the Crucible doesn't fire to allow for the choice. But you're right, the ending is drastically out of place.

[Guanxii]

On a related note a lot of people make a big deal about the multiple species who created the crucible not knowing what it was supposed to do... BioWare do seemingly foreshadow this when Hackett compares the catalyst to the atomic bomb which is a brilliant analogy that may have been overlooked. No body ever seems to bring it up when they use this criticism.

[Auld Wulf]

k.lalh wrote...

[...] (pre leviathan ofc) [...]

This part always amuses me.

See, long before the Leviathan DLC I was telling people that the Reapers were built by an ancient alien race. They were likely one who'd stocked up on their levels of egotism, arrogance, and hubris (not unlike some of us humans, so it's not hard to see how we could go down this road as well). I made the claim that they were likely the first race reaped, as their AI didn't interpret their orders quite as they wanted. I said it was fairly damned obvious if you looked at the evidence and stopped hating.

Then Leviathan came along and pretty much put every theory I had at that point in-game, as canon. I was amused. Yes, there was a degree of bragging because it feels nice to be vindicated. Really though, even without the EC, even without the Leviathan DLC, it really isn't hard at all to see what's going on. If you have an iota of imagination then you just have to ask yourself how you'd write the history of this stoiry, then the truth becomes apparent. So... the Leviathan DLC didn't magically fix anything, really.

It just filled in the holes that more imaginative people had already figured out. Sometimes I'm just in awe (in a bad way) that so few people actually figured out that the Catalyst was actually a construct by an old organic race. Not just a Cthulhu-like evil or anything, but just an error. Amazed. I trotted that theory around a lot a year ago, I tried to explain to people how it fit the evidence and how it helped things to make sense. I'm still amazed that so few had actually come to the realisation that I had.

I also originally figured that the designers of the Catalyst had also designed the first version of the Crucible. That was an idea I veered away from for a while, but one I've lately fallen back on. I don't think the Leviathans are the Crucible redesigners that added the Catalyst as an element, though. But they very likely made the original.

So there you go.

[Indy_S]

Guanxii wrote...

On a related note a lot of people make a big deal about the multiple species who created the crucible not knowing what it was supposed to do... 

I know I do.

BioWare do seemingly foreshadow this when Hackett compares the catalyst to the atomic bomb which is a brilliant analogy that may have been overlooked. No body ever seems to bring it up when they use this criticism.

Because it adds and detracts nothing to the conversation. That the situation is desparate enough to warrant its use is a given. The alternative to using the Tractor is just dying. With nothing to lose, give the wheel a spin. Interestingly enough, though, the supposed risk of the A-bomb was far greater than the otherwise worst possible outcome for the war.

[Wayning_Star]

Auld Wulf wrote...

k.lalh wrote...

[...] (pre leviathan ofc) [...]

This part always amuses me.

See, long before the Leviathan DLC I was telling people that the Reapers were built by an ancient alien race. They were likely one who'd stocked up on their levels of egotism, arrogance, and hubris (not unlike some of us humans, so it's not hard to see how we could go down this road as well). I made the claim that they were likely the first race reaped, as their AI didn't interpret their orders quite as they wanted. I said it was fairly damned obvious if you looked at the evidence and stopped hating.

Then Leviathan came along and pretty much put every theory I had at that point in-game, as canon. I was amused. Yes, there was a degree of bragging because it feels nice to be vindicated. Really though, even without the EC, even without the Leviathan DLC, it really isn't hard at all to see what's going on. If you have an iota of imagination then you just have to ask yourself how you'd write the history of this stoiry, then the truth becomes apparent. So... the Leviathan DLC didn't magically fix anything, really.

It just filled in the holes that more imaginative people had already figured out. Sometimes I'm just in awe (in a bad way) that so few people actually figured out that the Catalyst was actually a construct by an old organic race. Not just a Cthulhu-like evil or anything, but just an error. Amazed. I trotted that theory around a lot a year ago, I tried to explain to people how it fit the evidence and how it helped things to make sense. I'm still amazed that so few had actually come to the realisation that I had.

I also originally figured that the designers of the Catalyst had also designed the first version of the Crucible. That was an idea I veered away from for a while, but one I've lately fallen back on. I don't think the Leviathans are the Crucible redesigners that added the Catalyst as an element, though. But they very likely made the original.

So there you go.

the time frame for the crucible and its design are all goofed up, imo  There isn't a viable link to the situation, the crucible and the apparent choices, what, apparently have to be realized by Shepard, as the author for those is not made evident. The crucible is a total mystery, as to it's adaptability to an unknown agent, the catalyst and his citadel hold out. The engineering of it is left out. It just 'is'. The levi wouldn't profit from the crucible engagement in any case other than destroy, as synthesis and control both retain their most potent natural competitors, the reaperships. Other organics are their other competitors, en mass, but are currently limited by the reaps.

The deus ex machina gizmo is the entire endings wins scene, with the star gazers, who have the answers, without explanation. Leaving fans adrift in their query as to why any of the choice menu is or isn't faulty. I generally take the video game instance of the choices as they are, not to fully explainify all the pin pointed references to any 'one' guess as to a cure for the catalysts' problem of chaos. Who dun it is just another 'mystery' gist of the game story. It all ends up confusing, and that is confounding the issues present that are further, yet, unexplained.

Go left, control as the reapers only nicer, go right, clobber the reaps and Shep lives on as enigmatic, sans some tech and inherent risks of the trap laid by the catalyst, Leviathan tech and Leviathan survival. etc and then down the middle to associate the mystery of advanced technology, incredible power and the 'idea' of social stability, mollify chaos/natural evolution for a time, or refuse and let the status be quo.

OR, Shepard is the deus ex machina, apparently.

[k.lalh]

Well the Reapers would have to be built by someone, because unlike transformers, machines don't build themselves. So we have two options here, built by an ancient, super powerful, alien race, or built by "god(s)" as his/her/their tools. The former is more likely.

However, before this point, there is little to no mention of the nature of the catalyst in a vanilla, DLC free, playthrough. I played with every single DLC (minus citadel) on playthrough #2.

Excuse me for not paying close enough attention, I was just trying to kill some Reapers.

[ssltrain]

CDR David Shepard wrote...

I'm sure this has been brought up...probably many times...but I have never seen a post about it.

While the writers may not have planned this far ahead...

...Anderson theories that the information stored in the beacon on Eden Prime could be blue prints for some ancient weapon of mass destruction.

Of course...that wasn't the information in that beacon...but the crucible itself was indeed blueprints of some ancient weapon of mass destruction found in the prothean archives on Mars.

I just find it odd that I have never seen anyone mention that when they complain about the crucible being a deus ex machina.

If anyone complains that the Crucible is a deus ex machina (within the context of ME3), it's because they have no idea what a deus ex machina is and are just parroting something that they think sounds smart. One might be able to argue that it's a deus ex for the overall trilogy, but it'd be a weak argument (because they've always been looking for a non-descript way to stop the Reapers. ME3 just finally gives it a name).

It is, in fact, a MacGuffin Device (because they have no idea what it will do or how it works), not a deus ex. The Catalyst reveal was the real Deus Ex Machina. But, either way, both were ******-poorly executed compared to the rest of the great things about the series.

Modifié par ssltrain, 26 avril 2013 - 07:36 .

[David7204]

Utter nonsense. First of all, it's perfectly possible to be both a MacGuffin and a DEM. Secondly, the Catalyst is not a DEM. Thirdly, the fact that people expected a 'non-descriptive' way to defeat the Reapers neither excuses nor justifies a poor introduction in-story.

Modifié par David7204, 26 avril 2013 - 07:11 .

[wright1978]

Humakt83 wrote...

Catalyst is Diabolus Ex Machina masquerading as Deus Ex Machina.

He even appears to be literal god from the machine.

Yep this.
and ye gods it is truly awful.

Modifié par wright1978, 26 avril 2013 - 07:26 .

[ssltrain]

David7204 wrote...
Utter nonsense. First of all, it's perfectly possible to be both a MacGuffin and a DEM.

It is if you don't know what you're talking about. But, please, indulge me and cite an example.

Secondly, the Catalyst is not a DEM.

Oh, okay. But only because you say so, right? I guess we've settled that discussion then. 

The A.I. Catalyst is absolutely, in the way it was ultimately executed,  a deus ex machina (more so a "diabolos ex machina, as some have pointed out). We don't find out about the catalyst until near the 3/4 mark of the story. Throughout the entire third act, we are led to believe that it is the Citadel itself. At the very end of the game, they pull a switcheroo when it's revealed that the catalyst is actually this all-powerful AI that has been creating and controlling the Reapers all along (contrary to what the stories in ME1 and ME2 implied), can inexplicably read Shepard's mind in order to take the kid form, and has a space-magical solution to everyone's problems that isn't revealed until the very end of the story at the same time that this character is revealed to the story. That is the very definition of a deus/diabolos ex machina. Perhaps it wasn't meant to be one but it's execution within the story was so poorly done that it comes across strongly as on by default.  can disagree all you like, but your argument is with the dictionary, not me.

Thirdly, the fact that people expected a 'non-descriptive' way to defeat the Reapers neither excuses nor justifies a poor introduction in-story.

i have no idea what this means. I said that, throughout the series, Sheperd was looking for a "non-descript" way to defeat the Reapers, not "non-descriptive." Those two terms have different meanings. Time for you to grab that dictionary again.

Modifié par ssltrain, 26 avril 2013 - 07:44 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

The Crucible isn't a deus ex machina. It's a McGuffin with a pretty cheap introduction that was hand waved by Walters. He acknowledges the issue of it being one, without trying to really fix it. He says the alliance never looked that deep into the prothean records, but never states why. It's way too convenient.

The Catalyst, however, is a deus ex machina. As someone said, he's actually more a diabolus ex machina. He doesn't necessarily stop the problem himself as a regular DEM would, but you can't activate the Crucible without his "help". He has all of the essential traits of one.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 26 avril 2013 - 07:40 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

People like to complain, even if it means they'll have to ignore facts.

Typical Brovikk. Enter a thread and insult people and tell them they're wrong because they're complainers and haters.

Not to mention all the times you beg the question in regards to your arguments in support of ME3 and BioWare.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 26 avril 2013 - 07:40 .

[David7204]

That's your modus operandi, huh? Continually whining that whoever you're arguing with doesn't know what they're talking about? Just a little 'Get out of jail free card' for you, isn't it? Say the magic phrase, and it's a nice little instant win.

It should have been obvious from the beginning that the Reapers had some kind creator or leader. It should have been obvious that the Reapers had some sort of motive. if you don't feel that way, then you're simply a complete idiot. Both the Catalyst's existence on the Citadel and the technology used to facilitate the three options are not only well foreshadowed to be within the Reapers' methods and abilities, but ultimately not even relevant. The real crux is the Catalyst handing over the choice to Shepard. And that's not a DEM because it's tied to the Crucible, which we've been expecting to solve the problem from the beginning of the game.There's never a point where we expect the Crucible to be worthless, and yet we know the Crucible is not simply going to be a Reaper-buster without any costs or consequences and have that be the end of it. 

Modifié par David7204, 26 avril 2013 - 07:48 .

[txgoldrush]

Wow....does the fanbase not get the ending?

Shepard is the "Deus Ex Machina".......the entire plot device of the Deus Ex Machina is completely inverted here.

YOU came out of nowhere to solve the Catalyst's problems. The Crucible is his DEM, not yours.

[The Night Mammoth]

txgoldrush wrote...

Wow....does the fanbase not get the ending?

Shepard is the "Deus Ex Machina".......the entire plot device of the Deus Ex Machina is completely inverted here.

YOU came out of nowhere to solve the Catalyst's problems. The Crucible is his DEM, not yours.

The Reapers have known about Shepard for years and have continually observed the state of the galaxy throughout this cycle. Shepard's pressence wasn't a surprise, or unusual, and in fact, the Catalyst faciltated Shepard reaching that point. The Commander did nothing but run and dodge a laser beam. 

[txgoldrush]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Wow....does the fanbase not get the ending?

Shepard is the "Deus Ex Machina".......the entire plot device of the Deus Ex Machina is completely inverted here.

YOU came out of nowhere to solve the Catalyst's problems. The Crucible is his DEM, not yours.

The Reapers have known about Shepard for years and have continually observed the state of the galaxy throughout this cycle. Shepard's pressence wasn't a surprise, or unusual, and in fact, the Catalyst faciltated Shepard reaching that point. The Commander did nothing but run and dodge a laser beam. 

It did not facilitate the Crucible and Shepard being the solution to its problem it was created for.

The Reapers saw Shep as the enemy, not its solution.

[Sebby]

Crucible is a text book example of a deus ex machina as it's mere existence is impossible and it's insertion into the story was from the realization that ME2 didn't advance the plot one iota and left us with overpowered space chuthulu inside the galactic gates with nobody prepared and with not a single weakness of theirs discovered beforehand.

Without the Crucible(and reaper negative IQ) the only logical ending to ME3 would be a galactic reenactment of the anglo-zanzibar war within the first hour of the game.

[Wayning_Star]

actually, if one machine, or the tech that is capable of becoming self aware makes it to 'life' and then can construct other machines. So machines can and apparently do built themselves. Not from scratch, but that's why the synthesis beam converts nature to accommodate them. They are "of nature" as organics are 'of nature' or natural occurrence. Like plants'n animals, fauna, etc.

The catalyst became from the intelligence that became of the Leviathan. The reapers became of them all. Now, what about all that DNA and physical goo stuff on them, their concerted intellect,etc?

Why build all that for that by product? Simply to toss that baby out with the bath water?

[Wayning_Star]

Seboist wrote...

Crucible is a text book example of a deus ex machina as it's mere existence is impossible and it's insertion into the story was from the realization that ME2 didn't advance the plot one iota and left us with overpowered space chuthulu inside the galactic gates with nobody prepared and with not a single weakness of theirs discovered beforehand.

Without the Crucible(and reaper negative IQ) the only logical ending to ME3 would be a galactic reenactment of the anglo-zanzibar war within the first hour of the game.

I'd agree if it weren't for the choices and ultimately the star gazers who declare all is well that ends well.. regardless.

just say'n

[dirtdiver32318]

Is it nt odd that after a year we are still talking about the ending and I still see some threads on trying to make sense of the ending. It could be just me though sorry for going off topic.