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[txgoldrush]

Seboist wrote...

Crucible is a text book example of a deus ex machina as it's mere existence is impossible and it's insertion into the story was from the realization that ME2 didn't advance the plot one iota and left us with overpowered space chuthulu inside the galactic gates with nobody prepared and with not a single weakness of theirs discovered beforehand.

Without the Crucible(and reaper negative IQ) the only logical ending to ME3 would be a galactic reenactment of the anglo-zanzibar war within the first hour of the game.

Please...the existance of the Crucible is far from impossible and it was designed to use the Reapers own tech against them.

It fits in with the universe.

[AlexMBrennan]

Wikipedia says that...

A deus ex machina (pron.: /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/;[1] Latin: "god from the machine" pronounced [ˈdeus eks ˈmaː.kʰi.na]; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved, with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object

It is certainly unexpected after we are led to believe that the prothean beacon which Anderson speculates may have blueprints for some doomsday weapon is just a warming about the Reapers, and I think it is fairly unexpected for the Crucible plans to be suddenly discovered in an archive we have known about and been studying for decades just hours after the Reapers have invaded Earth.

[Megaton_Hope]

Also, if there was any data that had yet to be collected and interpreted in the find on Mars, you'd think that Dr. T'soni - being a researcher on the Protheans who has been working on the problem for some decades now - would have had a copy already.

Not to mention...you know...everybody else in the galaxy, because it's literally criminal to keep information on Prothean finds to yourself.

[dreamgazer]

Would you consider the conduit in ME1 to be a deus ex machina? Think about it.

[Indy_S]

dreamgazer wrote...

Would you consider the conduit in ME1 to be a deus ex machina? Think about it.

No. The Crucible is only a DEM if you consider the trilogy as one story.

[Megaton_Hope]

dreamgazer wrote...

Would you consider the conduit in ME1 to be a deus ex machina? Think about it.

Not really, I mean, it's a macguffin, but it's both the main threat (Saren is able to infiltrate the Citadel with his Geth army because it is there) and the means by which the heroes stop the villain. It may have been hastily kludged on to a largely pre-existing story, that seems plausible to me. (Although it does make Kaidan's teeth rattle as you walk by.)

The death of husk Saren bringing about a failure in Sovereign's kinetic barriers that allowed the Normandy to blow him up, THAT'S a Deus Ex Machina. As up to that point, Sovereign's assault on the Citadel has all the hallmarks of being impossible to stop.

[David7204]

That was not a DEM. It wasn't very good, but that's mostly because it's a pretty silly weakness for a Reaper to have.

[Indy_S]

Sure it was a DEM. It solved the invincible Reaper problem in a sudden and unexpected way.

[David7204]

Maybe we should just have a list of all the things in the series that are supposedly a DEM so we can go through it all at once. What other DEM moments are there?

[Indy_S]

I'm bound to miss some and you can probably argue every point, but:

Tali's data: solved the problem of proving Saren was a traitor.
Mu Relay info: solved the problem of knowing where to go.
Anti-Thorian Grenades: solved the problem of clearing Zhu's Hope non-lethally.
The Cipher: solved the problem of interpreting the beacon's message.
Mining laser: solved the problem of getting through the impenetrable forcefield Liara activated.
The Alliance fleet: solved the problem of losing the Battle for the Citadel.
Saren's death: solved the invincible Reaper problem.

Project Lazarus: solved the problem of Shepard's death/grave debilitation.
Veetor's tapes: solved the problem of identifying the enemy.
Mordin's cure: solved the problem of the alien-killing plague.
Mordin's bugspray: solved the problem of the swarms.
Quarian explosives: solved the problem of the collapsed stone pillar.

The Reaper's beam hitting a building: solved the problem of a locked door (entirely gameplay and not narrative but it still counts)
The Crucible: solved the problem of inevitable defeat.
The Shroud: solved the problem of dispersing the Genophage cure.
Kalros: solved the problem of the Reaper standing in front of the Shroud.
The Citadel beam: solved the problem of accessing the Citadel.
The Cain destroying a Reaper: solved the problem of the Hades Cannon.
Anderson's shuttle: solved the problem of Shepard being stranded away from Hammer.
Brutes breaking through a wall: solved the problem of a dead-end alley.
Thanix missiles: solved the problem of the beam Reaper.
The elevator for Shepard only: solved the problem of allowing the Crucible to fire.

As I said, I've likely missed a lot but I was sticking to the main story missions (and recruitment missions).

EDIT to add: Deus Ex Machina's are not always bad. A fair few of these do work for one reason or another (drama, pacing, etc.). And there's plenty of bad writing without DEMs.

Modifié par Indy_S, 27 avril 2013 - 10:01 .

[David7204]

This is what you think a Deus Ex Machina is, huh?

[SpamBot2000]

dreamgazer wrote...

Would you consider the conduit in ME1 to be a deus ex machina? Think about it.

Nope, that's just a door opening.

[Indy_S]

From TvTropes: A Deus Ex Machina is when some new event, character, ability, or object solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a sudden, unexpected way.' All of those things are seemingly unsolvable problems that get solved by something sudden and unexpected.

[David7204]

And how many of those examples you listed are actually on the page? Maybe you should try adding them and see how long they last. See how many people agree with you that the definition fits.

So tell me, every one of these situations is 'bad writing' to you, then?

Modifié par David7204, 27 avril 2013 - 09:32 .

[Indy_S]

As the edit says, no. A few of them do work.

And I think we could leave it here to see how many agree with it.

[David7204]

On the TV tropes page? Feel free. They won't last long.

These are not DEMs. They aren't bad writing. And frankly, most of them are just completely ridiculous.

[Indy_S]

Perhaps we could talk about specific examples?

[Eain]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
Though I wouldn't be surprised if people started using this as 'proof' that the series was meticulously planned from the beginning.

Well, there is far more proof that it wasn't. Such as Mac Walters saying that it wasn't.

So there's that.

[David7204]

Absolutely. The shuttle's guns example stood out to me as particularly jarring. We know the shuttle is equipped with weapons, we know the shuttle is in the vicinity. I'm fairly sure Cortez even mentions point blank that he can take out the tower once Shepard brings down the AA guns. How can you possibly call that a DEM?

[Goofy's Concern]

Hears a quote from wikipedia which may help the debate

Linguistic considerations

The Latin phrase deus ex machina comes to English usage from Horace's Ars Poetica, where he instructs poets that they must never resort to a god from the machine to solve their plots. He refers to the conventions of Greek tragedy, where a crane (mekhane) was used to lower actors playing gods onto the stage. The machine referred to in the phrase could be either the crane employed in the task, a calque from the Greek "god from the machine" (ἀπὸ μηχανῆς θεός, apò mēkhanḗs theós), or the riser that brought a god up from a trap door.

[Indy_S]

The narrative does not establish that the shuttle has weapons. But for this mission, it has two front-mounted cannons (and a door-mounted turret). This is an ability that the shuttle just gains to deal with the situation. Shepard has no weapons at hand capable of dealing with the jammer meaning that the shuttle is the only solution.

[David7204]

The narrative absolutely established the shuttle has weapons. There's both a codex entry and a conversation with Cortez that confirms the Kodiak is armed. There's even dialogue with James after Mars mentioning he should have used the guns.

[Indy_S]

I've been through the game three times and missed those conversations. Alright, I'll take that one off the list. Any more?

[David7204]

Yeah, all of them. Let's talk about the Thanix missiles. What's the problem with the Alliance forces on the ground having vehicles equipped with missiles?

[Indy_S]

The missiles themselves do not exist until the problem of the Reaper in front of the beam is brought into play. They proceed to be trotted out as the solution to this problem. There's nothing wrong with the Alliance having them there in-universe but the fact that they might have them is a terrible argument against their sudden introduction.