236 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

You'll also notice the overwhelming majority of entries concerning Mass Effect on TV Tropes are very positive.

[dreamgazer]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Anyways, that "tvtropes" site seems to have made a dogmatic critic out of everyone. I find the whole trend a little dispiriting, to be honest. Sure, it's often amusing and insightful, but it just makes it too easy to rip apart any story into snarkily named cliches. And too often it seems to be replacing doing any actual thinking about a story with a game of "Spot The Trope".

I actually agree, despite having fun discussing the tropes' components.

That is, until DEMs enter the conversation.

[AlanC9]

My problem with the way folks are using DEM and MacGuffin here is that they're always too broad; so many things would have to be included by these definitions that the terms wouldn't be useful anymore. If every plot has a MacGuffin, then what's the point of talking about a MacGuffin?

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 avril 2013 - 09:38 .

[txgoldrush]

AlanC9 wrote...

 That's just user error, though. Tropes Are Not Bad.

And Deus Ex Machina isn't always bad......


Mother 2 (Earthbound) and Mother 3 both had their endings end with a deus ex machina...however, they way they did it was brilliant.

Conker's Bad Fur Day is another....really it subverts one.

Mass Effect 3 does certainly play around with the trope, but it isn't one.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 27 avril 2013 - 09:48 .

[Megaton_Hope]

AlanC9 wrote...

My problem with the way folks are using DEM and MacGuffin here is that they're always too broad; so many things would have to be included by these definitions that the terms wouldn't be useful anymore. If every plot has a MacGuffin, then what's the point of talking about a MacGuffin?

Not every plot does have a MacGuffin. It's a staple of genres that depend on suspenseful chases and mysterious agendas. The hallmark of the MacGuffin is that it's a black box; a magical artifact would be a MacGuffin, for example, if its possession would make you all-powerful, but when it's acquired, it's not used, just fought over.

I'd lean toward the Conduit as a MacGuffin, mainly because it's entirely mysterious up until Vigil, and when you get to it, it turns out not to be what it seemed to be at all. (That is, it's only a "back door" onto the Citadel for Saren and his forces.) The Conduit is not, in fact, "the key to the return of the Reapers." Sovereign's interaction with Citadel Tower is the key; the Conduit is just a way for Saren to throw the Citadel forces into disarray so that Sovereign can get into place.

That's usually the way with McGuffins. They're very important, up until the end, when focus shifts toward something else.

[Morlath]

I apologise for the long post.

There are some really strange ideas here...really strange.

First
of, the Conduit is in no way a MacGuffin. Something can't be a MacGuffin
and then not when a new piece of information is given, the very nature
of what makes a MacGuffin prevents this from happening.

" It doesn't matter which it is, it is only necessary for the characters to want it."

Sheppard finds out that Saren is after the Conduit to bring back the Reapers, that it is an essential
component to his plan. Regardless of whether the final details of what
the Conduit is is given in the first "act" or the last, as long as the
Conduit is actually used (or attempted to be used) to
do what was promised then this keeps it from being a MacGuffin. We're
told it will enable the return of the Reapers and it will without any
outside interference and this makes it an essential plot device given
the narrative.

As for the original idea of the Catalyst being a DEM, I'll say no for similiar reasons. We're told from the very beginning that the Crucible needs the Catalyst, that it's the essential missing piece of the puzzle to make the entire thing work. In effect the Catalyst is the bridge connecting the Crucible to the Reapers. Just like the Conduit in ME1, it's the nature of the object (Conduit/Catalyst) that is kept a mystery up until the very end and not its existence.

"A Deus Ex Machina is when some new event, character, ability, or object
solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a sudden, unexpected way"

We know the Reapers can be killed (ME1 and throughout ME3), we know in the beginning of ME3 that there is a design for this weapon that the Protheans considered powerful enough to stop the Reapers. Ergo, this is not some new thing coming out at the last moment.

The Catalyst child is the reveal of the nature of the Catalyst - a three-choice way of maipulating the energy through the curcuit to affect the war - but it is not a DEM. There are far too many clues throughout the ME games (even without any DLC) to suggest a source maker of the Reapers, a logical reasoning for the cycles and a reason for the three choices:

Control - The Catalyst AI/mass subconscious understands that its plan has failed the essential root of its programing, namely to keep organic life free from the threat of inorganic destruction.

Synthesis - The ultimate goal of the Reapers right from the very beginning, hinted at through ME1 and shown in ME2 with the Human-Reaper.

Destroy - Wipe the slate clean and start again. Once more the Catalyst admitting it's actions not fullfilled its core focus.

I agree the reveal is a WTF moment and could have been handled better but that doesn't mean it's even close to being a DEM.

[Mangalores]

I'll disagree with you on the Catalyst. It is in it's appearance, introduction and options precisely what the classical Deus Ex Machina was, a god coming from heaven to give the last plot twist and resolve a conflict that cannot be resolved by the main characters.

You could apply the source maker of the Reapers to any Greek god and the way the Greeks believed they messed around with humans, too.

Even if you know you will meet this god from the start is the resolution not any less a deus ex machina when it solves the conflict just because the god happens to be in a good mood or randomly makes up solutions that have nothing to do with the plot development up to that point. Sounds familiar?

[Xamufam]

Shahadem wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is going to be a big Deus Ex Machina because it will be an ending that does not logically follow from Mass Effect 1 and 2.

At the end of Mass Effect 1 what we find out are that the Protheans built their civlization on the back of the civilization before them and because of this they completely lacked the ability to fight off the Reapers. The best they were able to do was to completely hide their top secret base on Ilos in the hopes that they'd be able to figure out how to make a Mass Relay and somehow use this to prevent the Reapers from coming back to continue the 50,000 year cycle.

In fact all the weaponry that was used in Mass Effect 1 which proved so incredibly ineffective against the Reapers was derived from the height of Prothean technology. If the height of Prothean technology could not create a weapon capable of even so much as scratching a Reaper and they only just barely figured out how to build a Mass Effect relay then how exactly could they also have created a doomsday device on Mars capable of wiping out the Reapers? Indeed the Asari can actually be thought of as being more technology advanced than the Protheans because they seemingly were able to build their own Mass Effect Relays years in the past, something that the Protheans only discovered as a last huzzah before keeling over.

Furthermore, how is it possible that both the Reapers and the humans did not discover the Prothean device during Martian excavations? If there really was such a magical doomsday device the Reapers would have learned about it from the indoctrinated Martian Protheans or any indoctrinated Protheans connected to this Martian colony/base. You have to remember that this colony was not a secret colony like the one on Ilos as the research on primitive humans made its way all over the galaxy with a piece winding up in the hands of Shaira 50,000 years later who did not get it from a human but from some other source who in turn did not get it from Martian excavations but rather Prothean excavations on a planet not in the human solar system. This all heavily suggests that there was no undiscovered secret Reaper doomsday device on Mars during Mass Effect 1.

All of human technology up to a few decades ago came from excavations of Prothean ruins on Mars. You can bet your britches that the First Contact War humans found themselves in upon opening the Mass Effect Effect relay orbiting Pluto would have made them search Mars like crazy for anything that would give them an edge or even a fighting chance against the newly discovered aliens.

The fact that nothing had been found on Mars by either the Reapers or the humans who both would have had ample time and ample ability to thoroughly search Mars for such a device leads strong credence to the belief that their was no magical doomsday device on Mars during Mass Effect 1.


The only technology the Protheans seemed to possess which was not discovered or surpassed by the present species were those devices that allowed thoughts to be transmitted directly into the brain, something which the Asari seem capable of doing even without needing those devices making them almost unnecessary. I wouldn't be surprised if actual humans are capable of building such a device by 2050.

We are given absolutely zero information which would lead us to believe that the Protheans would have been capable of somehow creating a Reaper killing doomsday device between the time they first learned of the Reapers and the time they were destroyed by the Reapers and given every indication that they lacked both the technology and time to do so.

Because of this the existance of plans to build a magical Prothean doomsday device on Mars is very much a Deus Ex Machina

During Mass Effect 2 galactic technology was in many ways brought up to the levels of the Reapers in terms of weaponry, shielding and electronic warfare thanks to being able to reverse engineer the technology on Sovereign's corpse.

For example Normandy II's Thanix Cannon is derived from the Turian research into reverse engineering Sovereign's weaponry. It would be safe to assume that nearly every Turian battleship would have or would be capable of being outfitted with a large version of the Thanix Cannon that could do some damage against a Reaper. Thanks to Shephard both Cerberus and the rest of the humans would also have access to this same technology.

From this we can establish that at the end of Mass Effect 2 the galaxy had the capability of effectively fighting back against the Reapers. The only thing it lacked was the cohesiveness needed to unite together enough to actually outfit their existing fleets with this newer technology before trying to take on the Reapers. And that should be what you do in Mass Effect 3.

Instead you work on building a magical doomsday device that was created in Mass Effect 3 specifically to derive a conclusion for Mass Effect 3 that does not logically flow from the events in Mass Effect 1 or 2.

The only other thing I have not addressed are the beings of light from Mass Effect 1 which could also have been a plausible ending or some thing to work towards in Mass Effect 3 however Bioware didn’t choose that route either.

They chose what we in FPS call a magic pill solution.

In ME1 Mars was just a simple prothean outpost but in ME3 it was a archive the protheans didn't have relays or the citadel & Ilos was the most advanced research station in the prothean empire (it should have had the crucible plans) & if they had long range FTL they would not be extinct, they didn't even know the reapers were comming the warning came to late

Modifié par Troxa, 28 avril 2013 - 08:55 .

[Morlath]

I can understand why people are seeing it as a Deus Ex Machina but there is a very distinct difference between a "god-like" being and a Deus Es Machina in literature.

Take TVTropes (since people have mentioned it in this thread). They have a list of requirements for a DEM:

1 - DEM's are solutions.

2 - They are sudden or unexpected. Even if they are referenced earlier, they do not change the course of nor appear to be a viable solution to the problem they solve.

3 - The problem they fix must be portrayed as unsolvable or hopeless. If the problem could be solved by any other means it is not a DEM no matter how unexpected it may seem.

While the Catalyst AI may be a gestalt consciousness of the Reapers, or merely the Reaper Creator and thus fit the "God" image, it isn't solving an insolvable problem. From the very beginning we are told that the Catalyst is the very key to unlocking the power of the Crucible and thus defeating the Reapers. The how is a twist, the what is a somewhat poor unveiling of the hidden secrets of the Reapers but the Catalyst does exactly what we were promised in the very beginning; namely enabling the Crucible to stop the Reaper invasion.

We're told there's no understanding of how the Crucible works or what it will do only that with the Catalyst it can stop the war. At the end of the game we meet the Catalyst and are able to stop the war. The Catalyst may be a Reaper god figure but it is not a Deus ex machina within the story itself.

[Xamufam]

A deus ex machina[/i] ( /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/ day-əs eks mah-kee-nə;[1] Latin: "god out of the machine"; plural: dei ex machina[/i]) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

the Latin phrase deus ex machina[/i] comes to English usage from Horace's Ars Poetica,[/i] where he instructs poets that they must never resort to a god from the machine to solve their plots. He refers to the conventions of Greek tragedy, where a crane (mekhane[/i]) was used to lower actors playing gods onto the stage. The machine referred to in the phrase could be either the crane employed in the task, a calque from the Greek "god from the machine" ("ἀπὸ μηχανῆς θεός," apò mēkhanḗs theós[/i]), or the riser that brought a god up from a trap door. The idea is that the device of said god is entirely artificial or conceived by man.

Aristotle criticized the device in his Poetics[/i], where he argued that the resolution of a plot must arise internally, following from previous action of the play:[3]

In the characters too, exactly as in the structure of the incidents, [the poet] ought always to seek what is either necessary or probable, so that it is either necessary or probable that a person of such-and-such a sort say or do things of the same sort, and it is either necessary or probable that this [incident] happen after that one. It is obvious that the solutions of plots too should come about as a result of the plot itself, and not from a contrivance, as in the Medea and in the passage about sailing home in the Iliad. A contrivance must be used for matters outside the drama—either previous events which are beyond human knowledge, or later ones that need to be foretold or announced. For we grant that the gods can see everything. There should be nothing improbable in the incidents; otherwise, it should be outside the tragedy, e.g., that in Sophocles' Oedipus.—Aristotle, Poetics (1454a33-1454b9)

The crucible is pretty much an Deus ex Machina (introduced at the third part of the trilogy)
The catalyst is pretty much an deus ex machina (Point of ME1)


In ME1 Mars was just a simple prothean outpost but in ME3 it was a archive the protheans didn't have relays or the citadel & Ilos was the most advanced research station in the prothean empire (it should have had the crucible plans) & if they had long range FTL they would not be extinct, they didn't even know the reapers were comming the
warning came to late

Modifié par Troxa, 28 avril 2013 - 08:55 .

[Morlath]

Troxa wrote...

The crucible is pretty much an Deus ex Machina (introduced at the third part of the trilogy)
The catalyst is pretty much an deus ex machina (Point of ME1)

No, because the entire point of a Deus ex Machina is that the problem at the end of a story is unsolvable. Both the Crucible and the Catalyst are plot devices (goal of the good guys + finding hidden key) are introduced in the very beginning of ME3, not at the end.

Let's take the concept of a Deus ex Machina back to basics; Hero has to cross the River Styx. In the beginning Hero can know about this and seek out the help of a god to be given a special item that allows Hero to travel safely across the dangerous water. This is a god involved in the story but is not a Deus ex Machina.

On the other hand Hero has no idea that this crossing is required before setting out and finds themself trapped without any sign of being able to cross safely. Suddenly a god appears and gives Hero the special item that allows safe passage. This is a Deus ex Machina.

Even if you take all three games as one play with three main acts, both the Crucible and Catalyst are mentioned and heavily focused upon at the very beginning of the third act (ME3) with the focus being the construction and search for the unknown piece. Regards of whether the Catalyst is a radioative cucumber, a secret Turian mating ritual or a Reaper god-like being, the very fact we are told it is the key to making the Crucible work keeps it from being a Deus ex Machina.

[AlanC9]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

I'd lean toward the Conduit as a MacGuffin, mainly because it's entirely mysterious up until Vigil, and when you get to it, it turns out not to be what it seemed to be at all. (That is, it's only a "back door" onto the Citadel for Saren and his forces.) The Conduit is not, in fact, "the key to the return of the Reapers." Sovereign's interaction with Citadel Tower is the key; the Conduit is just a way for Saren to throw the Citadel forces into disarray so that Sovereign can get into place.

That's usually the way with McGuffins. They're very important, up until the end, when focus shifts toward something else.

Meaning that the plot's the same before and after the Conduit? Before you get to the Conduit you're chasing Saren, and afterward.... you're still chasing Saren. Yeah, I see it.

[Megaton_Hope]

Morlath wrote...
We know the Reapers can be killed (ME1 and throughout ME3), we know in
the beginning of ME3 that there is a design for this weapon that the
Protheans considered powerful enough to stop the Reapers. Ergo, this is
not some new thing coming out at the last moment.

Actually, it's not clear that Reapers can be killed in the original Mass Effect. Using existing technology alone, that is. Sovereign is defeated thanks to a singular collission of circumstances, where he is directly interfaced with the Citadel systems, an unknown Prothean master control program is introduced into those systems, and he decides to control the huskified remains of Saren like a puppet. (Since this last situation seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back, it may not be a good idea to bring EDI on missions. Not that it really makes sense if you imagine it as parallel processing rather than a divided single consciousness.) Up until that last moment, Sovereign is protected by an impervious kinetic barrier, which shrugs off the most powerful weapons in the Citadel fleet. He literally doesn't register that he's being attacked, and at one point rams an Alliance dreadnought with one of his presumably structurally weak "tentacles," utterly destroying it.

The Thanix Cannon (which was based on a scaled-down version of Sovereign's technology) may be another matter. However, it was never tested against an actual Reaper. In fact, no Reaper dies during the course of the game. Harbinger survives (even in Arrival), and the 'proto-Reaper', which is defeated by small arms fire, clearly lacks Sovereign's capabilities. The closest analogue to a Reaper may be the Collector ship, which at least is based on the same technology.

Several Reapers are killed during the course of ME3, largely with fleets concentrating fire from orbit, although in one case, a really big Thresher Maw does the job. This, too, is a late entry in Reaper attributes. Along with their partially-biological construction, which makes no kind of sense.

I can understand why people are seeing it as a Deus Ex Machina but there
is a very distinct difference between a "god-like" being and a Deus Es
Machina in literature.

That's not what the use of the term refers to, regardless. It derives from Zeus swooping down in his chariot to pluck the hero from the jaws of certain death, yes. That is true.

Outside classical theater, where that happens the most, it simply refers to the hero being saved from certain death (or equally certain failure) through the entry of an unexpected and narratively disconnected force. The cavalry rides over the hill. It turns out that an eleven-year-old knows the operating system that the park's security system runs on well enough to lock the doors. It turns out that although Tank appeared to die by treachery when Cipher blasted him across the room with lightning, he is actually alive and standing right behind Cipher with a weapon. (The dialogue even foreshadows this as "some kind of miracle.") And so on, and so forth.

A "deus ex machina" is just when the story steps in to rescue somebody who has no business being rescued.

[AlanC9]

Troxa wrote...
In ME1 Mars was just a simple prothean outpost but in ME3 it was a archive the protheans didn't have relays or the citadel & Ilos was the most advanced research station in the prothean empire (it should have had the crucible plans) 

 Why would a base have plans for a project that it had nothing to do with? I don't think the US keeps plans for the F-22 at the Newport News shipyards.

[Morlath]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Actually, it's not clear that Reapers can be killed in the original Mass Effect. Using existing technology alone, that is. Sovereign is defeated thanks to a singular collission of circumstances, where he is directly interfaced with the Citadel systems, an unknown Prothean master control program is introduced into those systems, and he decides to control the huskified remains of Saren like a puppet. (Since this last situation seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back, it may not be a good idea to bring EDI on missions. Not that it really makes sense if you imagine it as parallel processing rather than a divided single consciousness.) Up until that last moment, Sovereign is protected by an impervious kinetic barrier, which shrugs off the most powerful weapons in the Citadel fleet. He literally doesn't register that he's being attacked, and at one point rams an Alliance dreadnought with one of his presumably structurally weak "tentacles," utterly destroying it.

The Thanix Cannon (which was based on a scaled-down version of Sovereign's technology) may be another matter. However, it was never tested against an actual Reaper. In fact, no Reaper dies during the course of the game. Harbinger survives (even in Arrival), and the 'proto-Reaper', which is defeated by small arms fire, clearly lacks Sovereign's capabilities. The closest analogue to a Reaper may be the Collector ship, which at least is based on the same technology.

Several Reapers are killed during the course of ME3, largely with fleets concentrating fire from orbit, although in one case, a really big Thresher Maw does the job. This, too, is a late entry in Reaper attributes. Along with their partially-biological construction, which makes no kind of sense.

The validity of the organic aspect of the Reapers is another debate (one I'm perfectly willing to have btw) but regardles, we do see a Reaper die in ME1. Whatever the combination of events that made it possible ME1 proves that they aren't unkillable. In ME3 they show a vulnerable spot in their design (Independence Day) that allows for more to be killed.

So, in ME1 we actually SEE a Reaper die. The events which brought down the kinetic barriers not withstanding, it was the conventional weapons which ultimately destroyed Sovereign's body.

That's not what the use of the term refers to, regardless. It derives from Zeus swooping down in his chariot to pluck the hero from the jaws of certain death, yes. That is true.

Outside classical theater, where that happens the most, it simply refers to the hero being saved from certain death (or equally certain failure) through the entry of an unexpected and narratively disconnected force. The cavalry rides over the hill. It turns out that an eleven-year-old knows the operating system that the park's security system runs on well enough to lock the doors. It turns out that although Tank appeared to die by treachery when Cipher blasted him across the room with lightning, he is actually alive and standing right behind Cipher with a weapon. (The dialogue even foreshadows this as "some kind of miracle.") And so on, and so forth.

A "deus ex machina" is just when the story steps in to rescue somebody who has no business being rescued.

And by your own definition there is no point in which this occurs during the ending of ME3. The beginning of ME3 sets up the entire premise of the final arc of the story; build the Crucible and find out what the Catalyst is so that it can be used to make the whole thing work. At the end of the game the Crucible is hooked up to the Catalyst and the entire thing works. There is no sudden miracle, no impossible situation that Shepard is caught in, just two machines being brought together and a twist that people hate.

[Megaton_Hope]

But the story where Shepard discovers that Reapers exist, that they directly and imminently threaten the galaxy, and that he must defeat them somehow is the one to which I refer when I call it a Deus Ex Machina.

That such a device was planned out by multiple previous cycles appears nowhere at all in the first two games. For all intents and purposes, there is no such thing as a Crucible; Shepard will have to find a way to defeat the functionally invincible Reapers with fleets and armies.

In the third game, it is introduced not only as the ultimate sole focus of the Prothean war effort, not to mention all the previous cycles for millions of years, but as being physically convenient to Earth, in a find that the Alliance had every logical reason to share with the other Council races. (Including that hiding Prothean finds is a crime under Council law.) Every Prothean researcher in the galaxy, and presumably there are many (since Prothean technology is the goose that laid the golden eggs), should have had copies of that information. That is, backups of everything in the archive should be widely available in academic circles, whether this portion was considered important and deciphered or not.

The previously unknown nature of the Crucible plans suggests either monumental incompetence in decades of highly motivated field archaeologists, or an attempt to pull a story resolution out of a hat on the part of the writers.

[David7204]

Yeah.

There's no way around it. The introduction and execution of the Crucible were incredibly poor.

There's a datapad on Mars that kinda-sorta explains that the researchers found a second cache of data buried deeper, but that's just not anywhere near close to good enough.

You know, even if it was introduced better, it would still be garbage. 'A secret Prothean weapon that can defeat the Reapers.' I could have come with up with that in two minutes. It's a throughly mediocre, uncreative idea, and I expected a hell of a lot better.  

Modifié par David7204, 28 avril 2013 - 10:05 .

[Village_Idiot]

David7204 wrote...

Yeah.

There's no way around it. The introduction and execution of the Crucible was incredibly poor.

There's a datapad on Mars that kinda-sorta explains that the researchers found a second cache of data buried deeper, but that's just not anywhere near close to good enough.

I agree. The Crucible needed to have been introduced earlier in the trilogies' timeline.

You know, even if it was introduced better, it would still be garbage. 'A secret Prothean weapon that can defeat the Reapers.' I could have come with up with that in two minutes. It's a throughly mediocre, uncreative idea, and I expected a hell of a lot better.

Admittedly the Crucible did have some more intiguing aspects, the idea that it was passed down from cycle to cycle and gradually improved upon was interesting. The fact it also effectively turned the Reapers' own creations (ie the Citadel and mass relay network) against them also seemed sound. But the basic idea, as you say, is somewhat anti-climatic.

And don't get me started on the fact that no-one could figure out what it does until the 11th hour.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 28 avril 2013 - 10:15 .

[Morlath]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

But the story where Shepard discovers that Reapers exist, that they directly and imminently threaten the galaxy, and that he must defeat them somehow is the one to which I refer when I call it a Deus Ex Machina.

snipped...

And once again you'd be mistaken. The reveal of the Crucible is an extremely poorly executed one make no mistake and most likely would have been better suited if found on another area. Liaria makes a comment in ME3 that the Mars area has a vast catalgoue that require decypthering and considering it's 35 years from discovery to ME1 that could account for the lack of research into the total cache but this isn't explored.

It's a bad introduction to a major plot device but the plot device itself is not a DEM.

ME1 is a Pursuit story (the hunting of Saren)
ME2 is an Adventure/war story (Defeating the Collectors)
ME3 is actually a Quest-Adventure story set within the backdrop of an intergalatic war. The Quest itself is to build the Crucible and find out what the Catalyst is and as such they can't be Deus ex Machinas.

I'm not saying the writing is perfect and the execution of the ideas certainly left it wide open to the dislike of the players but that still doesn't mean the Crucible/Catalyst fit into the definition of a DEM.

[AlanC9]

David7204 wrote...
You know, even if it was introduced better, it would still be garbage. 'A secret Prothean weapon that can defeat the Reapers.' I could have come with up with that in two minutes. It's a throughly mediocre, uncreative idea, and I expected a hell of a lot better.   

OK, but.....what?

An outright conventional war has the obvious problem of there not being much for Shepard to do in the endgame. That's why the first two games had Shepard fighting to reach a win button (Collector base core/ Citadel override)

A lot of the ideas I've heard are pretty much the same thing happening. Shepard fighting to reach a win button, variously defined. Central Reaper computer override, etc. and so forth. I'm not sure I've ever heard a non-superweapon plan that I thought was much better than the Crucible.

[David7204]

Well, that's difficult, isn't it? All the more so because I would absolutely want to include the possibility of a conventional victory, but only for perfect playthoughs.

That leaves a lot of variables to juggle. There needs to be an ultra-satisfying climax (heh heh) for conventional victory and a somewhat satisfying climax for the nonconventional solution. The story has to have Shepard focusing on both solutions until the very end, since it's not until then that the playthrough can be evaluated as perfect or not. I would really also prefer the nonconventional solution to not go to waste somehow, so players aren't frustrated that resources and time was spent on something that was ultimately worthless. There obviously has to be some sort of high price for the nonconventional solution, also not revealed until the end,  to make it clear a conventional victory is the best option...

We're not going to find something by just tweaking things around here and there. This would necessitate coming up with something totally new.

Modifié par David7204, 28 avril 2013 - 10:33 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Morlath wrote...

And once again you'd be mistaken. The reveal of the Crucible is an extremely poorly executed one make no mistake and most likely would have been better suited if found on another area. Liaria makes a comment in ME3 that the Mars area has a vast catalgoue that require decypthering and considering it's 35 years from discovery to ME1 that could account for the lack of research into the total cache but this isn't explored.

It's a bad introduction to a major plot device but the plot device itself is not a DEM.

Uh huh.

Here's the thing about data. Data can come to you! Even if the original form in which it was stored degrades or becomes corrupted, endless copies of important information can be made. In the present day, storage capacity and durability continue to advance at a rapid pace. There is every reason to believe that in a future as flush with materials science as Mass Effect, that should still be the case. There should not be enough capacity in that archive to overtax the Council's ability to make duplicates, which they have every reason to do. If they can read it at all, they can copy it.

As such, the entire contents of the archive should be available 1. somewhere the Citadel, 2. at the University of Serrice, and 3. in most any major center of study, since study of the Protheans is so widespread and important. Dr. Core's sabotage should be almost meaningless, and Liara should not have to physically interact with the archive on Mars.

Let us be clear. You are talking about three individual plot arcs in a single story as if they were three separate stories. The three games, however, constitute a narratively linked adventure of a single character and his companions to defeat a single threat.  The threat that the Reapers pose was never resolved in the first game, or the second, in which it receded into the background for a while. The protagonist's goal remained static throughout, however; stop the Reapers. The things he did during those earlier plot arcs are incidental.

[Village_Idiot]

David7204 wrote...

Well, that's difficult, isn't it? All the more so because I would absolutely want to include the possibility of a conventional victory, but only for perfect playthoughs.

That leaves a lot of variables to juggle. There needs to be an ultra-satisfying climax (heh heh) for conventional victory and a somewhat satisfying climax for the nonconventional solution. The story has to have Shepard focusing on both solutions until the very end, since it's not until then that playthrough can be evaluated as perfect or not. I would really also prefer the nonconventional solution to not go to waste somehow, so players aren't frustrated that resources and time was spent on something that was ultimately worthless. There obviously has to be some sort of high price for the nonconventional solution to make it clear a conventional victory is the best option...

My difficulty with the "conventional victory" idea is how it devalues the Reapers as antagonists. The first two games spent a lot of time painting the Reapers as incredibly powerful (though admittedly not invincilble) beings. To be honest, when ME3 comes along and the galaxy is able to last longer than a few days in a stand-up fight with the Reapers, it seems nothing short of miraculous. Sovereign goes on an absolute rampage before its demise in ME1's climax (which can also feasibly be attributed more to Saren's death rather than the fleet's combined attack), and now the galaxy is somehow holding off an entire fleet of similar ships.

I just don't think that a conventional victory is feasible without some even worse villain decay getting into the mix. ME3 eschewed the idea but still had to dial down the Reapers' supposed power in order to justify the entire war-story arc.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 28 avril 2013 - 10:42 .

[David7204]

The galaxy is a big, big place. Lots of people, lots of resources, lots of weapons. War takes a long time.

For the record, for this to be ideal, I would go back and change some things about the battle of the Citadel.

Modifié par David7204, 28 avril 2013 - 10:44 .

[The Night Mammoth]

I always thought it'd be interesting to see what happens if Shepard were a little more pro-active. I'm not entirely certain what could be done to vary the outcomes depending on past choices, but the Shepard I played made significant headway with the geth and the krogan, and had the support of the rachni.

It would have been interesting to see a situation where, thanks to Shepard actually doing some preparation for the Reapers instead of sitting on Earth for months on end doing nothing, the underdogs of the galaxy are the ones coming to the rescue of the Council.

If a price must be paid to defeat the Reapers if you haven't prepared enough, then Shepard and the Citadel would be obvious candidates. Staging the final battle there is important, in my mind.